|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On September 07 2017 03:02 Kickboxer wrote:
I try reading Salon and HuffPost here and there, though these make me thoroughly baffled on a weekly basis.
I'm even following Occupy Wallstreet on FB for Jumanji's sake.
I'm curious, how many of you ardent progressives here read Quilette or any other conservative-leaning outlet?
And Sermokala, really, grats on being openly racist. What does me being Eastern European have to do with anything on this planet? You're part of the problem, matey.
I didn't know that the entire region of Eastern Europe was a single race my bad. I'm glad you're here to educate me so well on race matters being from a region of the world known for welcoming in refugees.
|
United States43436 Posts
On September 07 2017 03:19 Kickboxer wrote:Thanks Kwark, I can understand most of what you are saying. In that case I think the term "white privilege" is very poorly constructed. What you appear to be talking about is systemic racism. I'm not sure to what degree that exists or does not exist in the US, but it's certainly not something I would endorse. I just don't think attributing class guilt to a race is a smart way to go about things. Looking at it, it strikes me as a racist concept in itself. Quilette is great, I thorougly recommend it. Here's an article that resonated particularly strongly with me: http://quillette.com/2017/08/29/centrism-moderate-manifesto/
If you look at the example of the two friends with the racist teacher it'll give you the spectrum of different issues.
Imagine if you and a black classmate were in school together and the teacher was pretty racist. Not in a calling him "nigger" way, just that if you copied his homework you'd get a better grade than him, if the friend answered a question he'd not really agree but if you then reworded your friend's answer you'd get a better response. That kind of thing. You and your friend both get that the teacher is doing this and you both agree that it's bullshit. You're a good friend, you're happy to admit that it's not right and that something should be done. Then, at the end of the year, the teacher gives the top student award to you. Your black friend asks if you'll willing to give it to him and you say "no, I earned this, it's mine". You worked hard to get it, maybe not as hard as your friend worked, but you still showed up etc.
1) White kid says "my answers were better because I'm white". White kid is in the KKK.
2) White kid says "I did better because my answers were better". White kid is being an asshole and needs to recognize the structural advantages that he benefits from.
3) White kid says "I don't see race". White kid is missing the point. It doesn't matter if he sees race or not, the teacher clearly does. His friend needs him to start seeing race because race is at the heart of the issue his friend is having.
4) White kid says "you need to stop talking about your teacher like that, it's divisive". White kid apparently prefers the unjust status quo to disrespecting racist teachers.
5) White kid says "have you tried pronouncing ask correctly". White kid is a racism apologist.
6) White kid says "wow, it's fucked up that I copied your homework and got a better grade". White kid has identified the injustice and condemned it privately. Ally level D.
7) White kid says "wow, that's fucked up, I'm gonna call that teacher out". White kid has identified the injustice and is condemning it publicly. Ally level C.
8) White kid says "wow, that's fucked up, I'm gonna go to the principal and get that teacher replaced if I can". White kid has identified the injustice and is actually doing something. Ally level B.
9) White kid says "wow, that's fucked up, I'm gonna swap grades with you and give you the star student award that I know you really deserved". White kid is making a personal sacrifice in order to correct the injustice and ensure that the benefit he derived from it is surrendered.
I'm at like a 7. Still an asshole friend but whatever.
|
The EU took in a heck of a lot more refugees than the US did, if I'm not mistaken. And that from a crisis caused by you guys? P.s. technically, Slovenia is in Central Europe. Feel free to look it up.
|
White is also a fluid concept in the US. Many groups now considered white were not always - Irish, Italian, southern europeans, etc. That might be a little hard to understand for someone not raised here. So white privilege is sort of a catch-all term for any group that has become considered white in the US.
|
On September 07 2017 03:32 Kickboxer wrote:
The EU took in a heck of a lot more refugees than the US did, if I'm not mistaken. And that from a crisis caused by you guys? P.s. technically, Slovenia is in Central Europe. Feel free to look it up.
I can read a map I know where Slovenia is. I knew what I was referring to and I labeled it as such. But I'm glad you identified yourself as Eastern European (as a race somehow) first to prove my point.
|
On September 07 2017 03:36 Nevuk wrote:
White is also a fluid concept in the US. Many groups now considered white were not always - Irish, Italian, southern europeans, etc. That might be a little hard to understand for someone not raised here. So white privilege is sort of a catch-all term for any group that has become considered white in the US.
There was a very long period in the US when Italians were not considered white. The Irish were not American because they were Catholic. But the period were they struggled to find acceptance in the US is relatively short, especially in comparison to our history of repressing blacks.
|
On September 07 2017 03:19 Kickboxer wrote:Thanks Kwark, I can understand most of what you are saying. In that case I think the term "white privilege" is very poorly constructed. What you appear to be talking about is systemic racism. I'm not sure to what degree that exists or does not exist in the US, but it's certainly not something I would endorse. I just don't think attributing class guilt to a race is a smart way to go about things. Looking at it, it strikes me as a racist concept in itself. Quilette is great, I thorougly recommend it. Here's an article that resonated particularly strongly with me: http://quillette.com/2017/08/29/centrism-moderate-manifesto/
Quillette isn't really that well known - on the Google results they're under the page for a Native American tribe and their Wikipedia page is a stub.
I am pretty okay with the article on centrism. Also... it's an argument for centrism not conservatism?
|
A meme on today's Trump negotiation capitulation:
+ Show Spoiler +
User was warned for this post
|
On September 07 2017 03:48 ticklishmusic wrote:
I am pretty okay with the article on centrism. Also... it's an argument for centrism not conservatism?
I'm pretty sure in the current political climate, a centrist as defined in this article would be considered a conservative by anyone left of the middle - wherever that is. And a white supremacist by Sermokala 
|
|
|
On September 07 2017 03:51 Kickboxer wrote:I'm pretty sure in the current political climate, a centrist as defined in this article would be considered a conservative by anyone left of the middle - wherever that is. And a white supremacist by Sermokala
Most centrists fall toward the "liberal" side as far as the US political spectrum goes, particularly when compared to the EU.
|
On September 07 2017 03:51 Kickboxer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2017 03:48 ticklishmusic wrote:
I am pretty okay with the article on centrism. Also... it's an argument for centrism not conservatism? I'm pretty sure in the current political climate, a centrist as defined in this article would be considered a conservative by anyone left of the middle - wherever that is. And a white supremacist by Sermokala
the article's definition of centrist of course may not be accurate.
the article itself looks to come from a place of center-right; analyzing the definition it provides independent of the essay itself would take a bit more work to figure out.
And there's a reason for why sermo said what he did which isn't entirely unreasonable; and he's certainly not from the left at any rate.
|
On September 07 2017 03:51 Kickboxer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2017 03:48 ticklishmusic wrote:
I am pretty okay with the article on centrism. Also... it's an argument for centrism not conservatism? I'm pretty sure in the current political climate, a centrist as defined in this article would be considered a conservative by anyone left of the middle - wherever that is. And a white supremacist by Sermokala
As others pointed out, you seem to be basing your description of the left off a pretty skewed view/ caricature. The bulk of the left-leaning posters here would probably fit squarely in the center or a couple steps left of what's described in the article.
|
On September 07 2017 04:04 ticklishmusic wrote:
As others pointed out, you seem to be basing your description of the left off a pretty skewed view/ caricature. The bulk of the left-leaning posters here would probably fit squarely in the center or a couple steps left of what's described in the article.
That's great if true. I think the world needs people like that right now, more than ever.
It's not the impression I've gotten so far - certain posters strike me as rather radical progressives, which is a pejorative term in my book - but I might be wrong. At any rate, I appreciate this forum both as a news site and a place to talk. It's not as bubbly as the other ones I frequent.
Cheers to you guys 
|
Considering MLK was a radical progressive in his day, I’m not really sure that is a pejorative. Then again, he also has some pretty harsh assessments of moderate whites, which get some choice responses if you don’t include the citation – written by MLK
|
Wonder how many more GOP senators are going to come out and be vocally critical of the deal
|
|
|
United States43436 Posts
On September 07 2017 04:29 Kickboxer wrote:Well, with regards to what I and people like me are worried about, this short article sums it up pretty well in extremely simplistic terms: http://bensoncody.blogspot.si/2017/08/
I read it. It seemed to come down to the "all lives matter" argument. That surely all lives matter and therefore saying that black lives matter specifically is needlessly divisive and redundant. After all, aren't blacks a subgroup of all.
The problem is that that kind of colourblind logic completely fails to function when you're working within a system including institutional racism. If race is a central component of the problem that is being described then racially neutral terms are simply a way of failing to talk about the problem.
When people talk about black issues they're not saying that black issues are more important than "people" issues. They're saying that right now the level of support that black issues are getting falls below that which "people" issues gets and they'd like it to be equalized. There is a heavy presumption that the default is white, Christian and male in the US.
|
It very clearly is a bad deal for the GOP. However, I'm not sure that it's a bad deal for Trump. It gives Trump another bite at the apple at getting the GOP to move on his agenda. Stated another way, it looks to me like Trump threw the GOP under the bus and is starting to signal that he'll work with Democrats if Republicans won't be reliable partners.
|
On September 07 2017 04:38 xDaunt wrote:It very clearly is a bad deal for the GOP. However, I'm not sure that it's a bad deal for Trump. It gives Trump another bite at the apple at getting the GOP to move on his agenda. Stated another way, it looks to me like Trump threw the GOP under the bus and is starting to signal that he'll work with Democrats if Republicans won't be reliable partners.
Pretty much how I expected this to work out. The Democrats also get to put the GOP through another debt ceiling fight, which only helps them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
