EPTOn September 07 2017 02:35 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
But I thought we need antifa to revolution us into forming a 3rd party alternative to democrats?
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 8663
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15401 Posts
But I thought we need antifa to revolution us into forming a 3rd party alternative to democrats? | ||
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Kickboxer
Slovenia1308 Posts
Again, I think "white privilege" is a racist term that tries to attribute collective guilt to an entire class of people, which I consider to be a very dangerous idea, historically. If there is indeed systemic racism in the US (the jury appears to still be out on that, I've seen both ends of the argument paraded as "fact" on many different sites), then it would be wise to address the racism instead of forming the concept of "privilege" which may or may not apply to people, depending on countless factors specific to their own personal situation. | ||
KwarK
United States42004 Posts
On September 07 2017 02:42 Kickboxer wrote: I'm having a productive discussion with a lot of people. That's why I'm even here. Today, I wrote a post with a couple valid points, and before some of the moderate posters replied with well-presented posts I rather enjoyed reading, the progressive police was already firing some condescending non-sequiturs that mostly had nothing to do with the content of my writing. Again, I think "white privilege" is a racist term that tries to attribute collective guilt to an entire class of people, which I consider to be a very dangerous idea, historically. If there is indeed systemic racism in the US (the jury appears to still be out on that, I've seen both ends of the argument paraded as "fact" on many different sites), then it would be wise to address the racism instead of forming the concept of "privilege" which may or may not apply to people, depending on countless factors specific to their own personal situation. I've explained to you multiple times that nobody is expected to feel guilty for things that happened before they were born, that literally all that is asked is that you recognize that other people don't benefit from advantages you take for granted and try not to be a dick about that. The white privilege you're opposing is either a straw man you're purposefully constructing to knock down or a simple misunderstanding. Given the number of times I've explained the concept to you I'm thinking it's probably the former. | ||
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Sermokala
United States13753 Posts
On September 07 2017 02:30 Kickboxer wrote: I have trouble understanding where I'm saying those things. Would you mind quoting me on that? As for the specific information under the emoji, can you explain where I'm wrong? The group bashing and pseudo-ridicule me and other conservative posters receive on this site - we are a minority after all, let's not forget - almost smells of "progressive TL member privilege". Bitch I'm conservative OG here. You tout out your liberal arts degrees I happen to have a MA in English, and another one in linguistics. and immediately demean people for daring to use complex words on your eastern euro white supremacist garbage. The first thing you learn on anything beyond an incredibly basic level is that being versed in communication pretty much correlates to expressing complicated ideas in simple terms. Your whole post was a pathetic attempt at redicule about how you're so much better at communicating and how p6 would come of as a prick to a poc that they met.Using thoroughly unnecessary big words to present your points, especially in long sequences of vapid nonsense, which you personally are guilty of 24/7, is a sign of not only an extremely limited grasp on language but also of poor understanding what efficient communication looks like. 'm pretty sure with your habits you're actually unable to communicate with an average POC without coming across as a condescending prick, which is super hilarious. Then you bring out some truely basic attempt at an Eisenstein quote when in reality its a rip off of a pete seeger quote. It's like Einstein said. Any cretin can make subjects complicated but it takes mastery to simplify them. You're outnumbered ideologically on the internet congratulations that doesn't give you a pass to be a basic asshole to anyone who disagrees with you. Show some respect and you'll get it. Everyone knows you're a white supremacist trying his best to hide behind conservatism to gain legitimacy to peddle your white pride trash. The joke wasn't funny move on. | ||
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Kickboxer
Slovenia1308 Posts
On September 07 2017 02:43 KwarK wrote: I've explained to you multiple times that nobody is expected to feel guilty for things that happened before they were born, that literally all that is asked is that you recognize that other people don't benefit from advantages you take for granted and try not to be a dick about that. The white privilege you're opposing is either a straw man you're purposefully constructing to knock down or a simple misunderstanding. Given the number of times I've explained the concept to you I'm thinking it's probably the former. Odd, I don't remember us two having a discussion on white privilege before today. We talked about some other, perhaps related stuff, but this specific term? Maybe the weed I'm smoking is too strong. As for your explanation right now, what you are saying sounds perfectly reasonable. Unfortunately, it appears to be entirely your own definition, given the absolutely preposterous demands certain BLM members have been making recently in public, the general attitude of your run-of-the-mill SJW (whose definition appears to be much more radical) as well as apocryphal commentary such as "the West was built on slavery and theft" (found in the initial post I replied to) that go entirely unchecked for some reason. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On September 07 2017 02:42 Kickboxer wrote: I'm having a productive discussion with a lot of people. That's why I'm even here. Today, I wrote a post with a couple valid points, and before some of the moderate posters replied with well-presented posts I rather enjoyed reading, the progressive police was already firing some condescending non-sequiturs that mostly had nothing to do with the content of my writing. Again, I think "white privilege" is a racist term that tries to attribute collective guilt to an entire class of people, which I consider to be a very dangerous idea, historically. If there is indeed systemic racism in the US (the jury appears to still be out on that, I've seen both ends of the argument paraded as "fact" on many different sites), then it would be wise to address the racism instead of forming the concept of "privilege" which may or may not apply to people, depending on countless factors specific to their own personal situation. Regardless of whether countless factors apply to any one person, white privilege is still one factor, and so without it, their privilege would be less. You admit yourself that privilege as a concept exists, since you talk about tallness etc, so it stands to reason that white privilege exists. It's the unconscious bias of the majority in power, which is white people. I could see the argument that a poor white who lives in a trailer in West Virginia and is addicted to meth is so low on the totem pole that their white privilege is negligible. But for the majority, white privilege is a factor in their lives from which they have benefitted. It's not a controversial statement. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21373 Posts
On September 07 2017 02:26 Wulfey_LA wrote: This is the kind of news that makes me a Democrat. Against an impending crisis, Democrats held together and got essential government functions funded with zero insane/ideologically cuts. The Democrats may not be able win elections, but that doesn't stop them from winning on policy. This doesn't mean a thing unless enough Republicans vote with Democrats on this right? Tho I guess they are likely to find enough willing. | ||
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Kickboxer
Slovenia1308 Posts
On September 07 2017 02:46 Sermokala wrote: your eastern euro white supremacist garbage. What the actual fuck?  That escalated really fast. If I fit your above description, no wonder Trump is president. I'm here arguing for individualism and personal responsibility, against the genderbender nonsense, and especially against identity politics. Calling people like me "white supremacists" is about as non-constructive as you can get. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On September 07 2017 02:48 Kickboxer wrote: Odd, I don't remember us two having a discussion on white privilege before today. We talked about some other, perhaps related stuff, but this specific term? Maybe the weed I'm smoking is too strong. As for your explanation right now, what you are saying sounds perfectly reasonable. Unfortunately, it appears to be entirely your own definition, given the absolutely preposterous demands certain BLM members have been making recently in public, the general attitude of your run-of-the-mill SJW (whose definition appears to be much more radical) as well as apocryphal commentary such as "the West was built on slavery and theft" (found in the initial post I replied to) that go entirely unchecked for some reason. iirc weed can cause long term damage to memory. also, kwark's definition is accurate; you're probably just consuming media which only shows you the crazies using extreme versions of it; which cuases you to have a distorted view of the situation. be wary of consuming media which only shows the other sides' crazies and then extrapolating from that. | ||
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Kickboxer
Slovenia1308 Posts
On September 07 2017 02:53 zlefin wrote: be wary of consuming media which only shows the other sides' crazies and then extrapolating from that. I absolutely could not agree more with this statement. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On September 07 2017 02:53 zlefin wrote: iirc weed can cause long term damage to memory. also, kwark's definition is accurate; you're probably just consuming media which only shows you the crazies using extreme versions of it; which cuases you to have a distorted view of the situation. be wary of consuming media which only shows the other sides' crazies and then extrapolating from that. Weed can cause memory issues but after not using it for a couple of years these effects disappear based on the last study I read on it. (This was like a 6-7 years ago, more has likely been done since). | ||
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Kickboxer
Slovenia1308 Posts
I'm even following Occupy Wallstreet on FB for Jumanji's sake. I'm curious, how many of you ardent progressives here read Quilette or any other conservative-leaning outlet? And Sermokala, really, grats on being openly racist. What does me being Eastern European have to do with anything on this planet? You're part of the problem, matey. | ||
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KwarK
United States42004 Posts
On September 07 2017 02:48 Kickboxer wrote: Odd, I don't remember us two having a discussion on white privilege before today. We talked about some other, perhaps related stuff, but this specific term? Maybe the weed I'm smoking is too strong. As for your explanation right now, what you are saying sounds perfectly reasonable. Unfortunately, it appears to be entirely your own definition, given the absolutely preposterous demands certain BLM members have been making recently in public, the general attitude of your run-of-the-mill SJW (whose definition appears to be much more radical) as well as apocryphal commentary such as "the West was built on slavery and theft" (found in the initial post I replied to) that go entirely unchecked for some reason. It's a complex subject. You were right when you mentioned a halfdozen different privileges earlier. Naturally attractive people have shit easier than naturally unattractive. Children of two parent households do better. Wealth obviously. All of these should be recognized. The problem is that race is definitely pretty high up there as a privilege in the US and it really does make a difference. A simple example is that in a traffic stop the police are far more likely to assume that you are dangerous if you are black, to the point that if you do literally everything right you might still get shot, see Philando Castile. Where privilege comes into it is that the white people in power are continually saying "if you tell the officer you're carrying" or "if you narrate your actions" or "if you keep your hands visible" etc then you won't get shot without recognizing that their experiences simply don't apply to the situation. What they need to do is listen to the black community and, rather than correcting them based on their own limited experience and understanding of the situation, trust that the black community can speak accurately about their own experience. That's all the recognizing of privilege that would be needed there. Simply saying "my experience does not apply to your situation, tell me your experience and I'll believe you". I can see how the more extreme versions get onto favouring minorities in employment, reparations and the like, but I don't really agree. Here's the basic argument, as I understand it, of the extreme privilege folks. Imagine if you and a black classmate were in school together and the teacher was pretty racist. Not in a calling him "nigger" way, just that if you copied his homework you'd get a better grade than him, if the friend answered a question he'd not really agree but if you then reworded your friend's answer you'd get a better response. That kind of thing. You and your friend both get that the teacher is doing this and you both agree that it's bullshit. You're a good friend, you're happy to admit that it's not right and that something should be done. Then, at the end of the year, the teacher gives the top student award to you. Your black friend asks if you'll willing to give it to him and you say "no, I earned this, it's mine". You worked hard to get it, maybe not as hard as your friend worked, but you still showed up etc. It's all very well to say that the discrimination is bullshit and be a good ally but if, when push comes to shove, you're not actually willing to sacrifice any advantage you were unfairly given, it's all just words. I don't really agree with that, mostly because I, like the shitty friend in the story, believe that I earned the shit that I have. But I get why people arrive at that conclusion. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15401 Posts
On September 07 2017 03:02 Kickboxer wrote: I try reading Salon and HuffPost here and there, though these make me thoroughly baffled on a weekly basis. I'm even following Occupy Wallstreet on FB for Jumanji's sake. I'm curious, how many of you ardent progressives here read Quilette or any other conservative-leaning outlet? And Sermokala, really, grats on being openly racist. What does me being Eastern European have to do with anything on this planet? You're part of the problem, matey. If you are reading Huffpo and Salon, it makes a lot more sense why you think so poorly of the left. They are garbage. Salon in particular. Anyone remember "HERES HOW BERNIE CAN STILL WIN" articles being used to siphon clicks out of easily charmed young folk? | ||
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Wulfey_LA
932 Posts
On September 07 2017 02:53 Gorsameth wrote: This doesn't mean a thing unless enough Republicans vote with Democrats on this right? Tho I guess they are likely to find enough willing. Back in April/May, there were a few factions in congress. 1) - Dems, completely united behind preserving all funding 2) - scared Republicans who don't want to vote for something that will cost them their seat 3) - safe freedom caucus crazies who actually believe when they hear on FOX news Trump talks like a (3), but he folds like a (2). Every time Ryan has been put to the question, he goes with (1) and (2) to fund government rather than give in to the fantasies of (3). If the (3) guys were going to get their shutdown, then we wouldn't already have reports of (1), (2), and Trump agreeing to fund the government. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On September 07 2017 03:08 Mohdoo wrote: If you are reading Huffpo and Salon, it makes a lot more sense why you think so poorly of the left. They are garbage. Salon in particular. Anyone remember "HERES HOW BERNIE CAN STILL WIN" articles being used to siphon clicks out of easily charmed young folk? aye; it sounds like he's only consuming the crazy media rather than the sane ones. never even heard of quilette. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 07 2017 03:07 KwarK wrote: You were right when you mentioned a halfdozen different privileges earlier. Naturally attractive people have shit easier than naturally unattractive. Children of two parent households do better. Wealth obviously. All of these should be recognized. The problem is that race is definitely pretty high up there as a privilege in the US and it really does make a difference. Race is also one of the privileges that people are least likely to acknowledge as being such. Someone who has "smart privilege" almost always knows and acknowledges it. The guy who breezed through college with great grades without ever so much as opening a textbook knows exactly the fortunate circumstances that let him do that. With race, people are far less likely to acknowledge the advantages their race has given them and are more willing to write those things off as having to do with other factors. That's why the privilege discussion is so centered on race/gender/etc.--because nobody has any problem admitting any of the other privileges. | ||
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Kickboxer
Slovenia1308 Posts
I just don't think attributing class guilt to a race is a smart way to go about things. Looking at it, it strikes me as a racist concept in itself. Quilette is great, I thorougly recommend it. Here's an article that resonated particularly strongly with me: http://quillette.com/2017/08/29/centrism-moderate-manifesto/ | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 07 2017 03:08 Mohdoo wrote: If you are reading Huffpo and Salon, it makes a lot more sense why you think so poorly of the left. They are garbage. Salon in particular. Anyone remember "HERES HOW BERNIE CAN STILL WIN" articles being used to siphon clicks out of easily charmed young folk? Agreed. Please read the news sections of the NYT and WPost. The Atlantic is also acceptable most of the time. Edit: I also think folks from the EU need to take into account how deeply racism impacts US history and our culture. The economic dependants on slavery defined many of our earliest political conflicts all the way up to Nixon and the southern strategy. And I have not even touched on our treatment of native Americans. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35093 Posts
On September 07 2017 02:37 Lmui wrote: The best negotiator. Majorities in Senate, and House and still losing. Must be low energy from all that winning. | ||
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