EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 8604
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
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SoSexy
Italy3725 Posts
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Ghostcom
Denmark4783 Posts
EDIT: But yeah, they are pretty despicable. Anyone who thinks violence as an answer to peaceful protest is acceptable is pretty much off their rocker. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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ImFromPortugal
Portugal1368 Posts
On August 30 2017 22:39 SoSexy wrote: Some peaceful antifa in action at Berkeley: https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5ce_1503955729 disgusting community made by disgusting people. disgusting animals the nazis are worse though | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
On August 30 2017 22:58 Plansix wrote: They are a product of the times. Threats of violence are responded to with more violence. That is why people advocate for peaceful protest and resolutions. It won’t end until both of the parties get this stuff under control, which isn’t likely given who is president. You don't sound very different from Trumps "both sides" speech. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 30 2017 23:29 mahrgell wrote: You don't sound very different from Trumps "both sides" speech. Not really. Nazis are garbage and Nazi rallies will always end up being meet with violence. It is the nature of advocating for genocide and white supremacy. It is a call to pick a fight. If people want the violence to stop, they need to look at the root cause of the violence in their own communities and lives. Point the finger and saying “its their fault, I want the nation to come together but they won’t let it happen” isn’t the way. | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
On August 30 2017 23:36 Doodsmack wrote: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/263280672146337792 The law that for everything Trump says or does he's tweeted an equal and opposite stance just keeps being proved true lol | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On August 30 2017 23:10 Doodsmack wrote: I don't think Nazis should be shut down or violence against them should be allowed, but on the other hand on a personal level, they shouldn't be surprised that their calls to exterminate people are met with violence. It comes with the territory. They expect it. They want it. They know tempers will flare and something is bound to happen, so they do their best to frame themselves as victims, which turns more edge case people to their side. | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4783 Posts
On August 30 2017 23:36 Plansix wrote: Not really. Nazis are garbage and Nazi rallies will always end up being meet with violence. It is the nature of advocating for genocide and white supremacy. It is a call to pick a fight. If people want the violence to stop, they need to look at the root cause of the violence in their own communities and lives. Point the finger and saying “its their fault, I want the nation to come together but they won’t let it happen” isn’t the way. Bullshit. I've counterprotested multiple Nazi rallies and everything went completely peaceful. They held their speeches, we held ours and then we all walked home unharmed. EDIT: I know there is a difference between Denmark and the US, but that doesn't change the fact that nazi rallies can be counter-protested peacefully. Let the Nazis meet up to a protest with shields, riot gear, and rifles if they want (apparently that's legal in the US) - it doesn't excuse ANTIFA or any of the counterprotesters who chooses violence. If you peacefully counterprotest them they gain nothing. When you start punching you serve their cause. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
On August 30 2017 23:36 Plansix wrote: Not really. Nazis are garbage and Nazi rallies will always end up being meet with violence. It is the nature of advocating for genocide and white supremacy. It is a call to pick a fight. If people want the violence to stop, they need to look at the root cause of the violence in their own communities and lives. Point the finger and saying “its their fault, I want the nation to come together but they won’t let it happen” isn’t the way. While I agree that such displays of hate/discrimination, lawful as they may be (e: in the US), have to be opposed time and again with the full capacity of civil disobedience, I disagree that it means to attack them not by words, but by force. There is this proverb that your goals have to be reflected in your ways. And I agree with that in the overarching majority of cases. It can be revealing to experience racial and gendered discricimination first hand as a white male, I don't dispute that. But from my perspective right now, it's more fruitful to mirror the opponent's actions on him, where they don't fear for their safety. Someone brought up the example of football hooligans clashing with one another and I quite liked that. Unless you're attacked first, bringing physical harm to your opponen will rarely trigger a reflection of their erroneous ways (look at the root cause). Otherwise you're just looking for a cause to beat someone up / have a fight. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On August 30 2017 23:45 Ghostcom wrote: Bullshit. I've counterprotested multiple Nazi rallies and everything went completely peaceful. They held their speeches, we held ours and then we all walked home unharmed. EDIT: I know there is a difference between Denmark and the US, but that doesn't change the fact that nazi rallies can be counter-protested peacefully. Let the Nazis meet up to a protest with shields, riot gear, and rifles if they want (apparently that's legal in the US) - it doesn't excuse ANTIFA or any of the counterprotesters who chooses violence. If you peacefully counterprotest them they gain nothing. When you start punching you serve their cause. In your eyes, what is the ultimate goal of nazis? If they held a political majority in Denmark, what sorts of changes do you think they'd be interested in? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 30 2017 23:45 Ghostcom wrote: Bullshit. I've counterprotested multiple Nazi rallies and everything went completely peaceful. They held their speeches, we held ours and then we all walked home unharmed. I will agree to anything that lets us not have this debate again. I both sides debate is winning me over by sheer attrition and nothing else. So you are right. There can be peaceful protests and Nazis can be peaceful. I was wrong and take it back. | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4783 Posts
On August 30 2017 23:50 Mohdoo wrote: In your eyes, what is the ultimate goal of nazis? If they held a political majority in Denmark, what sorts of changes do you think they'd be interested in? Why is this relevant? EDIT: I mean, I will gladly answer, but I completely fail to see the relevance to the discussion at hand. EDIT: If you are going to concede a point Plansix, at least actually do so instead of that BS "you are right, I get peace" statement. | ||
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Simberto
Germany12061 Posts
On August 30 2017 23:45 Ghostcom wrote: Bullshit. I've counterprotested multiple Nazi rallies and everything went completely peaceful. They held their speeches, we held ours and then we all walked home unharmed. EDIT: I know there is a difference between Denmark and the US, but that doesn't change the fact that nazi rallies can be counter-protested peacefully. Let the Nazis meet up to a protest with shields, riot gear, and rifles if they want (apparently that's legal in the US) - it doesn't excuse ANTIFA or any of the counterprotesters who chooses violence. If you peacefully counterprotest them they gain nothing. When you start punching you serve their cause. Yes, I agree that it is possible to peacefully counterprotest nazis. I did that multiple times already. However, i feel like that got easier by the fact that the police separates the two protest groups, and because no one had guns. I think it becomes a bit harder if you use the US system and have armed and armored nazis clash directly with the counterprotestors. (Which still sounds like an incredibly stupid way to handle that situation, and i still can't believe that that is how the US handles it.) | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4783 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 30 2017 23:49 Artisreal wrote: While I agree that such displays of hate/discrimination, lawful as they may be (e: in the US), have to be opposed time and again with the full capacity of civil disobedience, I disagree that it means to attack them not by words, but by force. There is this proverb that your goals have to be reflected in your ways. And I agree with that in the overarching majority of cases. It can be revealing to experience racial and gendered discricimination first hand as a white male, I don't dispute that. But from my perspective right now, it's more fruitful to mirror the opponent's actions on him, where they don't fear for their safety. Someone brought up the example of football hooligans clashing with one another and I quite liked that. Unless you're attacked first, bringing physical harm to your opponen will rarely trigger a reflection of their erroneous ways (look at the root cause). Otherwise you're just looking for a cause to beat someone up / have a fight. The guitarist in my wife’s band talked about Nazis in the punk scene. Every show he went to where they showed up, they were there to pick a fight with someone. The only option they had was to deny them access to the show. On August 30 2017 23:54 Simberto wrote: Yes, I agree that it is possible to peacefully counterprotest nazis. I did that multiple times already. However, i feel like that got easier by the fact that the police separates the two protest groups, and because no one had guns. I think it becomes a bit harder if you use the US system and have armed and armored nazis clash directly with the counterprotestors. (Which still sounds like an incredibly stupid way to handle that situation, and i still can't believe that that is how the US handles it.) It is hard to protect free speech and peaceful protest when the protesters show up armed for a fight with police and counter protesters. | ||
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