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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On August 08 2017 05:27 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2017 05:24 Gorsameth wrote:On August 08 2017 05:19 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:15 Gorsameth wrote:On August 08 2017 05:09 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:05 KwarK wrote:
Okay, I'll try and make this easier for you to understand. Four situations.
1) If someone wanted arbitration and there was no mandatory arbitration clause they'd go to arbitration. That's fine.
2) If someone didn't want arbitration and there was no mandatory arbitration clause they'd not go to arbitration. That's fine.
3) If someone wanted arbitration and there was a mandatory arbitration clause they'd go to arbitration. That's fine.
4) If someone didn't want arbitration and there was a mandatory arbitration clause they'd go to arbitration. That's less fine.
What I am trying to get from you is the benefit of the mandatory arbitration clause to the consumer. To do this you will need to show that 4 is better than 2. And whether arbitration is good doesn't matter. Watch, I'll do the same for pizza.
1) If someone wanted pepperoni and there was no mandatory pepperoni clause they'd get a pepperoni pizza. That's fine.
2) If someone didn't want pepperoni and there was no mandatory pepperoni clause they'd not get a pepperoni pizza. That's fine.
3) If someone wanted pepperoni and there was a mandatory pepperoni clause they'd get a pepperoni pizza. That's fine.
4) If someone didn't want pepperoni and there was a mandatory pepperoni clause they'd get a pepperoni pizza. That's less fine.
The merits of pepperoni pizza on pizza aren't really the point, as I'm sure you'll now see. I've already made the argument for 4 repeatedly: arbitration is a cheaper alternative to civil litigation that affords better expected results to claimants (ie the little guy) that range from faster and cheaper dispute resolution to access to a remedy at all due to the claim being otherwise uneconomic for lawyers to get involved. You want to protect people from making bad choices in this case? But are against every other case of protecting people from making bad choices, because that's often the argument used by Democrats for government intervention. You are literally making the argument for Big Government, except you don't like the government so only businesses get to go Big Business and impose their will upon the people to protect them from themselves. The hilarious part is that everyone but you sees your doing this, that's why we're so amazed at what your saying. On August 08 2017 05:14 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:10 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2017 05:09 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:05 KwarK wrote:
Okay, I'll try and make this easier for you to understand. Four situations.
1) If someone wanted arbitration and there was no mandatory arbitration clause they'd go to arbitration. That's fine.
2) If someone didn't want arbitration and there was no mandatory arbitration clause they'd not go to arbitration. That's fine.
3) If someone wanted arbitration and there was a mandatory arbitration clause they'd go to arbitration. That's fine.
4) If someone didn't want arbitration and there was a mandatory arbitration clause they'd go to arbitration. That's less fine.
What I am trying to get from you is the benefit of the mandatory arbitration clause to the consumer. To do this you will need to show that 4 is better than 2. And whether arbitration is good doesn't matter. Watch, I'll do the same for pizza.
1) If someone wanted pepperoni and there was no mandatory pepperoni clause they'd get a pepperoni pizza. That's fine.
2) If someone didn't want pepperoni and there was no mandatory pepperoni clause they'd not get a pepperoni pizza. That's fine.
3) If someone wanted pepperoni and there was a mandatory pepperoni clause they'd get a pepperoni pizza. That's fine.
4) If someone didn't want pepperoni and there was a mandatory pepperoni clause they'd get a pepperoni pizza. That's less fine.
The merits of pepperoni pizza on pizza aren't really the point, as I'm sure you'll now see. I've already made the argument for 4 repeatedly: arbitration is a cheaper alternative to civil litigation that affords better expected results to claimants (ie the little guy) that range from faster and cheaper dispute resolution to access to a remedy at all due to the claim being otherwise uneconomic for lawyers to get involved. That's the argument for 1 and 3. You might as well say "pepperoni is really tasty" as your argument for the benefits of a mandatory pepperoni clause. Quit being so dense. You asked me what the benefit to the consumer was. I told you what it was. Whether the consumer is smart enough to want it is irrelevant. Word for word the argument for big government regulating peoples lives... No, I'm not arguing for protecting people from making bad choices. I'm not arguing to compel anyone to do anything. The mere fact that you think I am shows that you are clueless as to what arbitration is and how it works. And here we go with the xDaunt argument style. "I was totally not talking about the thing I was talking about, I was talking about this other thing". This entire argument is about forced arbitration, which is about people being compelled to do a thing. On August 08 2017 03:01 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 02:53 TheYango wrote:
My understanding of xDaunt's point thus far is that "arbitration as an option" leads to arbitration being underutilized in practice due to the inherent conflict of interest for a plaintiff's trial lawyers (since they make more $$$ if the case goes to trial). Forced arbitration is therefore a net gain via removing the option for bad faith-decisions made by trial lawyers for their own personal gain.
I'm not knowledgeable enough on the subject in question to assess the truthfulness of the claims made, but from an outside perspective, forced arbitration doesn't seem like solution to this problem. But it is *a* solution. My argument is that forced arbitration is not necessarily a bad thing, and for most claimants, it is likely a better way of resolving their claims. Thus, most criticisms of these types of clauses are misplaced.And just to clarify a tangential point: Plaintiffs trial attorneys actually make more money (on a recovery versus time spent basis) when they settle their claims without resorting to litigation. And if they do file suit, they generally make more money settling before trial. This is a function of the cost curve of litigation and the fact that plaintiff's attorney almost always work on a contingency fee (they're paid a percentage of a recovery as opposed to an hourly rate). Jesus fucking Christ. Good look up what arbitration is and how it works. Here's a big hint: the government has nothing to do with it.
The government scrapping consumer protection rules so that corporations can force arbitration "for the good of the consumer".
Gimme a break, your a moderately intelligent individual, you know the bullshit your trying to peddle.
We've gone through the motions, we have ticked off the xDaunt argument boxes. The inconsistency in your argument has been thoroughly exposed. I'm done here.
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On August 08 2017 05:35 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2017 05:28 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:22 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 08 2017 05:19 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:15 Gorsameth wrote:On August 08 2017 05:09 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:05 KwarK wrote:
Okay, I'll try and make this easier for you to understand. Four situations.
1) If someone wanted arbitration and there was no mandatory arbitration clause they'd go to arbitration. That's fine.
2) If someone didn't want arbitration and there was no mandatory arbitration clause they'd not go to arbitration. That's fine.
3) If someone wanted arbitration and there was a mandatory arbitration clause they'd go to arbitration. That's fine.
4) If someone didn't want arbitration and there was a mandatory arbitration clause they'd go to arbitration. That's less fine.
What I am trying to get from you is the benefit of the mandatory arbitration clause to the consumer. To do this you will need to show that 4 is better than 2. And whether arbitration is good doesn't matter. Watch, I'll do the same for pizza.
1) If someone wanted pepperoni and there was no mandatory pepperoni clause they'd get a pepperoni pizza. That's fine.
2) If someone didn't want pepperoni and there was no mandatory pepperoni clause they'd not get a pepperoni pizza. That's fine.
3) If someone wanted pepperoni and there was a mandatory pepperoni clause they'd get a pepperoni pizza. That's fine.
4) If someone didn't want pepperoni and there was a mandatory pepperoni clause they'd get a pepperoni pizza. That's less fine.
The merits of pepperoni pizza on pizza aren't really the point, as I'm sure you'll now see. I've already made the argument for 4 repeatedly: arbitration is a cheaper alternative to civil litigation that affords better expected results to claimants (ie the little guy) that range from faster and cheaper dispute resolution to access to a remedy at all due to the claim being otherwise uneconomic for lawyers to get involved. You want to protect people from making bad choices in this case? But are against every other case of protecting people from making bad choices, because that's often the argument used by Democrats for government intervention. You are literally making the argument for Big Government, except you don't like the government so only businesses get to go Big Business and impose their will upon the people to protect them from themselves. The hilarious part is that everyone but you sees your doing this, that's why we're so amazed at what your saying. On August 08 2017 05:14 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:10 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2017 05:09 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:05 KwarK wrote:
Okay, I'll try and make this easier for you to understand. Four situations.
1) If someone wanted arbitration and there was no mandatory arbitration clause they'd go to arbitration. That's fine.
2) If someone didn't want arbitration and there was no mandatory arbitration clause they'd not go to arbitration. That's fine.
3) If someone wanted arbitration and there was a mandatory arbitration clause they'd go to arbitration. That's fine.
4) If someone didn't want arbitration and there was a mandatory arbitration clause they'd go to arbitration. That's less fine.
What I am trying to get from you is the benefit of the mandatory arbitration clause to the consumer. To do this you will need to show that 4 is better than 2. And whether arbitration is good doesn't matter. Watch, I'll do the same for pizza.
1) If someone wanted pepperoni and there was no mandatory pepperoni clause they'd get a pepperoni pizza. That's fine.
2) If someone didn't want pepperoni and there was no mandatory pepperoni clause they'd not get a pepperoni pizza. That's fine.
3) If someone wanted pepperoni and there was a mandatory pepperoni clause they'd get a pepperoni pizza. That's fine.
4) If someone didn't want pepperoni and there was a mandatory pepperoni clause they'd get a pepperoni pizza. That's less fine.
The merits of pepperoni pizza on pizza aren't really the point, as I'm sure you'll now see. I've already made the argument for 4 repeatedly: arbitration is a cheaper alternative to civil litigation that affords better expected results to claimants (ie the little guy) that range from faster and cheaper dispute resolution to access to a remedy at all due to the claim being otherwise uneconomic for lawyers to get involved. That's the argument for 1 and 3. You might as well say "pepperoni is really tasty" as your argument for the benefits of a mandatory pepperoni clause. Quit being so dense. You asked me what the benefit to the consumer was. I told you what it was. Whether the consumer is smart enough to want it is irrelevant. Word for word the argument for big government regulating peoples lives... No, I'm not arguing for protecting people from making bad choices. I'm not arguing to compel anyone to do anything. The mere fact that you think I am shows that you are clueless as to what arbitration is and how it works. You are saying protecting people from bad choices is a good thing corporations should do. I find that especially funny because purchasing most consumer goods is a bad choice companies spend billions on encouraging/manipulating people to do. No, I'm not arguing that, either. You most definitely are. I suppose you may be trying to suggest that you personally are neutral and are simply pointing out it's a net benefit (but you are neutral on whether that benefit is good) for a corporation to protect it's customers from bad decisions, even if that means taking away the customers right to go to court rather than arbitration. Of course that doesn't make any sense, so I'm confident that you are actually saying that a corporation protecting a customer from making bad decisions is a good thing they should do (as opposed to not doing this thing you think is a net benefit for their customers).
Go find the post where I say that the corporation is putting (or should put) in arbitration contracts for the good of the consumer. You better pack a suitcase before you go on this expedition because it's going to be a while.
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Tech billionaire Peter Thiel, a supporter of President Donald Trump who has helped advise the former real estate mogul on technology policy, is privately worried about the success of the Trump administration, according to BuzzFeed.
Reporter Ryan Mac spoke with several associates of Thiel who said he has made disparaging comments about Trump’s presidency in private while continuing to support Trump publicly.
“There is a 50% chance this whole thing ends in disaster,” two people claim Thiel said at an event with friends in January. The report also claims Thiel described the Trump administration as “incompetent” at an event in May.
In an interview with The New York Times also in January, Thiel reaffirmed his support for Trump, confronting criticisms he faced about Trump’s platform, including his approach to LGBTQ issues (“I think Trump is very good on gay rights”) and Trump’s penchant for discussing foreign policy on social media (“A Twitter war is not a real war”).
In that interview, Thiel alluded to WWE wrestler Hulk Hogan’s infamous case against Gawker Media, which Thiel funded. (Hogan sued Gawker for publishing a sex tape without his permission and won, prompting Gawker Media to file for bankruptcy.)
“People thought the whole Trump thing was fake, that it wasn’t going to go anywhere, that it was the most ridiculous thing imaginable, and then somehow he won, like Hogan did,” Thiel told the Times.
Thiel was praised for his remarks at the Republican National Convention in July 2016, where he made history as the first openly gay speaker to talk about his sexual orientation at the event.
Thiel’s name had been floated for several major roles during Trump’s tenure, including, at one point, Supreme Court justice nominee. He said in January he did not plan to take any job with Trump’s administration.
Source
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On August 08 2017 05:39 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2017 05:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 08 2017 05:28 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:22 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 08 2017 05:19 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:15 Gorsameth wrote:On August 08 2017 05:09 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:05 KwarK wrote:
Okay, I'll try and make this easier for you to understand. Four situations.
1) If someone wanted arbitration and there was no mandatory arbitration clause they'd go to arbitration. That's fine.
2) If someone didn't want arbitration and there was no mandatory arbitration clause they'd not go to arbitration. That's fine.
3) If someone wanted arbitration and there was a mandatory arbitration clause they'd go to arbitration. That's fine.
4) If someone didn't want arbitration and there was a mandatory arbitration clause they'd go to arbitration. That's less fine.
What I am trying to get from you is the benefit of the mandatory arbitration clause to the consumer. To do this you will need to show that 4 is better than 2. And whether arbitration is good doesn't matter. Watch, I'll do the same for pizza.
1) If someone wanted pepperoni and there was no mandatory pepperoni clause they'd get a pepperoni pizza. That's fine.
2) If someone didn't want pepperoni and there was no mandatory pepperoni clause they'd not get a pepperoni pizza. That's fine.
3) If someone wanted pepperoni and there was a mandatory pepperoni clause they'd get a pepperoni pizza. That's fine.
4) If someone didn't want pepperoni and there was a mandatory pepperoni clause they'd get a pepperoni pizza. That's less fine.
The merits of pepperoni pizza on pizza aren't really the point, as I'm sure you'll now see. I've already made the argument for 4 repeatedly: arbitration is a cheaper alternative to civil litigation that affords better expected results to claimants (ie the little guy) that range from faster and cheaper dispute resolution to access to a remedy at all due to the claim being otherwise uneconomic for lawyers to get involved. You want to protect people from making bad choices in this case? But are against every other case of protecting people from making bad choices, because that's often the argument used by Democrats for government intervention. You are literally making the argument for Big Government, except you don't like the government so only businesses get to go Big Business and impose their will upon the people to protect them from themselves. The hilarious part is that everyone but you sees your doing this, that's why we're so amazed at what your saying. On August 08 2017 05:14 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:10 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2017 05:09 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:05 KwarK wrote:
Okay, I'll try and make this easier for you to understand. Four situations.
1) If someone wanted arbitration and there was no mandatory arbitration clause they'd go to arbitration. That's fine.
2) If someone didn't want arbitration and there was no mandatory arbitration clause they'd not go to arbitration. That's fine.
3) If someone wanted arbitration and there was a mandatory arbitration clause they'd go to arbitration. That's fine.
4) If someone didn't want arbitration and there was a mandatory arbitration clause they'd go to arbitration. That's less fine.
What I am trying to get from you is the benefit of the mandatory arbitration clause to the consumer. To do this you will need to show that 4 is better than 2. And whether arbitration is good doesn't matter. Watch, I'll do the same for pizza.
1) If someone wanted pepperoni and there was no mandatory pepperoni clause they'd get a pepperoni pizza. That's fine.
2) If someone didn't want pepperoni and there was no mandatory pepperoni clause they'd not get a pepperoni pizza. That's fine.
3) If someone wanted pepperoni and there was a mandatory pepperoni clause they'd get a pepperoni pizza. That's fine.
4) If someone didn't want pepperoni and there was a mandatory pepperoni clause they'd get a pepperoni pizza. That's less fine.
The merits of pepperoni pizza on pizza aren't really the point, as I'm sure you'll now see. I've already made the argument for 4 repeatedly: arbitration is a cheaper alternative to civil litigation that affords better expected results to claimants (ie the little guy) that range from faster and cheaper dispute resolution to access to a remedy at all due to the claim being otherwise uneconomic for lawyers to get involved. That's the argument for 1 and 3. You might as well say "pepperoni is really tasty" as your argument for the benefits of a mandatory pepperoni clause. Quit being so dense. You asked me what the benefit to the consumer was. I told you what it was. Whether the consumer is smart enough to want it is irrelevant. Word for word the argument for big government regulating peoples lives... No, I'm not arguing for protecting people from making bad choices. I'm not arguing to compel anyone to do anything. The mere fact that you think I am shows that you are clueless as to what arbitration is and how it works. You are saying protecting people from bad choices is a good thing corporations should do. I find that especially funny because purchasing most consumer goods is a bad choice companies spend billions on encouraging/manipulating people to do. No, I'm not arguing that, either. You most definitely are. I suppose you may be trying to suggest that you personally are neutral and are simply pointing out it's a net benefit (but you are neutral on whether that benefit is good) for a corporation to protect it's customers from bad decisions, even if that means taking away the customers right to go to court rather than arbitration. Of course that doesn't make any sense, so I'm confident that you are actually saying that a corporation protecting a customer from making bad decisions is a good thing they should do (as opposed to not doing this thing you think is a net benefit for their customers). Go find the post where I say that the corporation is putting (or should put) in arbitration contracts for the good of the consumer. You better pack a suitcase before you go on this expedition because it's going to be a while.
Would corporations putting in arbitration clauses be a net good for the consumer in your view?
What motive would a corporation have to not do this thing for their consumers?
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On August 08 2017 05:38 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2017 05:27 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:24 Gorsameth wrote:On August 08 2017 05:19 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:15 Gorsameth wrote:On August 08 2017 05:09 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:05 KwarK wrote:
Okay, I'll try and make this easier for you to understand. Four situations.
1) If someone wanted arbitration and there was no mandatory arbitration clause they'd go to arbitration. That's fine.
2) If someone didn't want arbitration and there was no mandatory arbitration clause they'd not go to arbitration. That's fine.
3) If someone wanted arbitration and there was a mandatory arbitration clause they'd go to arbitration. That's fine.
4) If someone didn't want arbitration and there was a mandatory arbitration clause they'd go to arbitration. That's less fine.
What I am trying to get from you is the benefit of the mandatory arbitration clause to the consumer. To do this you will need to show that 4 is better than 2. And whether arbitration is good doesn't matter. Watch, I'll do the same for pizza.
1) If someone wanted pepperoni and there was no mandatory pepperoni clause they'd get a pepperoni pizza. That's fine.
2) If someone didn't want pepperoni and there was no mandatory pepperoni clause they'd not get a pepperoni pizza. That's fine.
3) If someone wanted pepperoni and there was a mandatory pepperoni clause they'd get a pepperoni pizza. That's fine.
4) If someone didn't want pepperoni and there was a mandatory pepperoni clause they'd get a pepperoni pizza. That's less fine.
The merits of pepperoni pizza on pizza aren't really the point, as I'm sure you'll now see. I've already made the argument for 4 repeatedly: arbitration is a cheaper alternative to civil litigation that affords better expected results to claimants (ie the little guy) that range from faster and cheaper dispute resolution to access to a remedy at all due to the claim being otherwise uneconomic for lawyers to get involved. You want to protect people from making bad choices in this case? But are against every other case of protecting people from making bad choices, because that's often the argument used by Democrats for government intervention. You are literally making the argument for Big Government, except you don't like the government so only businesses get to go Big Business and impose their will upon the people to protect them from themselves. The hilarious part is that everyone but you sees your doing this, that's why we're so amazed at what your saying. On August 08 2017 05:14 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:10 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2017 05:09 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:05 KwarK wrote:
Okay, I'll try and make this easier for you to understand. Four situations.
1) If someone wanted arbitration and there was no mandatory arbitration clause they'd go to arbitration. That's fine.
2) If someone didn't want arbitration and there was no mandatory arbitration clause they'd not go to arbitration. That's fine.
3) If someone wanted arbitration and there was a mandatory arbitration clause they'd go to arbitration. That's fine.
4) If someone didn't want arbitration and there was a mandatory arbitration clause they'd go to arbitration. That's less fine.
What I am trying to get from you is the benefit of the mandatory arbitration clause to the consumer. To do this you will need to show that 4 is better than 2. And whether arbitration is good doesn't matter. Watch, I'll do the same for pizza.
1) If someone wanted pepperoni and there was no mandatory pepperoni clause they'd get a pepperoni pizza. That's fine.
2) If someone didn't want pepperoni and there was no mandatory pepperoni clause they'd not get a pepperoni pizza. That's fine.
3) If someone wanted pepperoni and there was a mandatory pepperoni clause they'd get a pepperoni pizza. That's fine.
4) If someone didn't want pepperoni and there was a mandatory pepperoni clause they'd get a pepperoni pizza. That's less fine.
The merits of pepperoni pizza on pizza aren't really the point, as I'm sure you'll now see. I've already made the argument for 4 repeatedly: arbitration is a cheaper alternative to civil litigation that affords better expected results to claimants (ie the little guy) that range from faster and cheaper dispute resolution to access to a remedy at all due to the claim being otherwise uneconomic for lawyers to get involved. That's the argument for 1 and 3. You might as well say "pepperoni is really tasty" as your argument for the benefits of a mandatory pepperoni clause. Quit being so dense. You asked me what the benefit to the consumer was. I told you what it was. Whether the consumer is smart enough to want it is irrelevant. Word for word the argument for big government regulating peoples lives... No, I'm not arguing for protecting people from making bad choices. I'm not arguing to compel anyone to do anything. The mere fact that you think I am shows that you are clueless as to what arbitration is and how it works. And here we go with the xDaunt argument style. "I was totally not talking about the thing I was talking about, I was talking about this other thing". This entire argument is about forced arbitration, which is about people being compelled to do a thing. On August 08 2017 03:01 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 02:53 TheYango wrote:
My understanding of xDaunt's point thus far is that "arbitration as an option" leads to arbitration being underutilized in practice due to the inherent conflict of interest for a plaintiff's trial lawyers (since they make more $$$ if the case goes to trial). Forced arbitration is therefore a net gain via removing the option for bad faith-decisions made by trial lawyers for their own personal gain.
I'm not knowledgeable enough on the subject in question to assess the truthfulness of the claims made, but from an outside perspective, forced arbitration doesn't seem like solution to this problem. But it is *a* solution. My argument is that forced arbitration is not necessarily a bad thing, and for most claimants, it is likely a better way of resolving their claims. Thus, most criticisms of these types of clauses are misplaced.And just to clarify a tangential point: Plaintiffs trial attorneys actually make more money (on a recovery versus time spent basis) when they settle their claims without resorting to litigation. And if they do file suit, they generally make more money settling before trial. This is a function of the cost curve of litigation and the fact that plaintiff's attorney almost always work on a contingency fee (they're paid a percentage of a recovery as opposed to an hourly rate). Jesus fucking Christ. Good look up what arbitration is and how it works. Here's a big hint: the government has nothing to do with it. The government scrapping consumer protection rules so that corporations can force arbitration "for the good of the consumer". Gimme a break, your a moderately intelligent individual, you know the bullshit your trying to peddle. We've gone through the motions, we have ticked off the xDaunt argument boxes. The inconsistency in your argument has been thoroughly exposed. I'm done here.
Your posting on this topic is a fucking disgrace. Nowhere have I said that corporations are doing this for the good of consumers. Nor have I argued for any kind of government intervention or compulsion on this topic. All I have done is point out the obvious: the rule change isn't really a bad thing for most consumers.
You are way out of your depth on this topic. Just stay out.
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On August 08 2017 05:44 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2017 05:39 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 08 2017 05:28 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:22 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 08 2017 05:19 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:15 Gorsameth wrote:On August 08 2017 05:09 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:05 KwarK wrote:
Okay, I'll try and make this easier for you to understand. Four situations.
1) If someone wanted arbitration and there was no mandatory arbitration clause they'd go to arbitration. That's fine.
2) If someone didn't want arbitration and there was no mandatory arbitration clause they'd not go to arbitration. That's fine.
3) If someone wanted arbitration and there was a mandatory arbitration clause they'd go to arbitration. That's fine.
4) If someone didn't want arbitration and there was a mandatory arbitration clause they'd go to arbitration. That's less fine.
What I am trying to get from you is the benefit of the mandatory arbitration clause to the consumer. To do this you will need to show that 4 is better than 2. And whether arbitration is good doesn't matter. Watch, I'll do the same for pizza.
1) If someone wanted pepperoni and there was no mandatory pepperoni clause they'd get a pepperoni pizza. That's fine.
2) If someone didn't want pepperoni and there was no mandatory pepperoni clause they'd not get a pepperoni pizza. That's fine.
3) If someone wanted pepperoni and there was a mandatory pepperoni clause they'd get a pepperoni pizza. That's fine.
4) If someone didn't want pepperoni and there was a mandatory pepperoni clause they'd get a pepperoni pizza. That's less fine.
The merits of pepperoni pizza on pizza aren't really the point, as I'm sure you'll now see. I've already made the argument for 4 repeatedly: arbitration is a cheaper alternative to civil litigation that affords better expected results to claimants (ie the little guy) that range from faster and cheaper dispute resolution to access to a remedy at all due to the claim being otherwise uneconomic for lawyers to get involved. You want to protect people from making bad choices in this case? But are against every other case of protecting people from making bad choices, because that's often the argument used by Democrats for government intervention. You are literally making the argument for Big Government, except you don't like the government so only businesses get to go Big Business and impose their will upon the people to protect them from themselves. The hilarious part is that everyone but you sees your doing this, that's why we're so amazed at what your saying. On August 08 2017 05:14 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:10 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2017 05:09 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
I've already made the argument for 4 repeatedly: arbitration is a cheaper alternative to civil litigation that affords better expected results to claimants (ie the little guy) that range from faster and cheaper dispute resolution to access to a remedy at all due to the claim being otherwise uneconomic for lawyers to get involved. That's the argument for 1 and 3. You might as well say "pepperoni is really tasty" as your argument for the benefits of a mandatory pepperoni clause. Quit being so dense. You asked me what the benefit to the consumer was. I told you what it was. Whether the consumer is smart enough to want it is irrelevant. Word for word the argument for big government regulating peoples lives... No, I'm not arguing for protecting people from making bad choices. I'm not arguing to compel anyone to do anything. The mere fact that you think I am shows that you are clueless as to what arbitration is and how it works. You are saying protecting people from bad choices is a good thing corporations should do. I find that especially funny because purchasing most consumer goods is a bad choice companies spend billions on encouraging/manipulating people to do. No, I'm not arguing that, either. You most definitely are. I suppose you may be trying to suggest that you personally are neutral and are simply pointing out it's a net benefit (but you are neutral on whether that benefit is good) for a corporation to protect it's customers from bad decisions, even if that means taking away the customers right to go to court rather than arbitration. Of course that doesn't make any sense, so I'm confident that you are actually saying that a corporation protecting a customer from making bad decisions is a good thing they should do (as opposed to not doing this thing you think is a net benefit for their customers). Go find the post where I say that the corporation is putting (or should put) in arbitration contracts for the good of the consumer. You better pack a suitcase before you go on this expedition because it's going to be a while. Would corporations putting in arbitration clauses be a net good for the consumer in your view?
It depends upon the industry. But regardless of whether there's a net good for the consumer, the corporation obviously is doing it for its own purposes.
What motive would a corporation have to not do this thing for their consumers?
All sorts of selfish motivations related to keeping litigation expensive or otherwise keeping the deck as stacked as possible in their favor.
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The irony of this is Trump is pretty much keeping the NYT in business against the print media decline with the surge in Trump coverage and him giving interviews for the failing paper.
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So wonder if the NY Times has a story about to drop.
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This Vietnam line of attack from Trump is well thought out. More, please.
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Trump has practically guaranteed that the NYT and WaPo will ride out the downfall of print media until the bitter end.
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On August 08 2017 05:49 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2017 05:44 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 08 2017 05:39 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 08 2017 05:28 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:22 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 08 2017 05:19 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:15 Gorsameth wrote:On August 08 2017 05:09 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:05 KwarK wrote:
Okay, I'll try and make this easier for you to understand. Four situations.
1) If someone wanted arbitration and there was no mandatory arbitration clause they'd go to arbitration. That's fine.
2) If someone didn't want arbitration and there was no mandatory arbitration clause they'd not go to arbitration. That's fine.
3) If someone wanted arbitration and there was a mandatory arbitration clause they'd go to arbitration. That's fine.
4) If someone didn't want arbitration and there was a mandatory arbitration clause they'd go to arbitration. That's less fine.
What I am trying to get from you is the benefit of the mandatory arbitration clause to the consumer. To do this you will need to show that 4 is better than 2. And whether arbitration is good doesn't matter. Watch, I'll do the same for pizza.
1) If someone wanted pepperoni and there was no mandatory pepperoni clause they'd get a pepperoni pizza. That's fine.
2) If someone didn't want pepperoni and there was no mandatory pepperoni clause they'd not get a pepperoni pizza. That's fine.
3) If someone wanted pepperoni and there was a mandatory pepperoni clause they'd get a pepperoni pizza. That's fine.
4) If someone didn't want pepperoni and there was a mandatory pepperoni clause they'd get a pepperoni pizza. That's less fine.
The merits of pepperoni pizza on pizza aren't really the point, as I'm sure you'll now see. I've already made the argument for 4 repeatedly: arbitration is a cheaper alternative to civil litigation that affords better expected results to claimants (ie the little guy) that range from faster and cheaper dispute resolution to access to a remedy at all due to the claim being otherwise uneconomic for lawyers to get involved. You want to protect people from making bad choices in this case? But are against every other case of protecting people from making bad choices, because that's often the argument used by Democrats for government intervention. You are literally making the argument for Big Government, except you don't like the government so only businesses get to go Big Business and impose their will upon the people to protect them from themselves. The hilarious part is that everyone but you sees your doing this, that's why we're so amazed at what your saying. On August 08 2017 05:14 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:10 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
That's the argument for 1 and 3. You might as well say "pepperoni is really tasty" as your argument for the benefits of a mandatory pepperoni clause. Quit being so dense. You asked me what the benefit to the consumer was. I told you what it was. Whether the consumer is smart enough to want it is irrelevant. Word for word the argument for big government regulating peoples lives... No, I'm not arguing for protecting people from making bad choices. I'm not arguing to compel anyone to do anything. The mere fact that you think I am shows that you are clueless as to what arbitration is and how it works. You are saying protecting people from bad choices is a good thing corporations should do. I find that especially funny because purchasing most consumer goods is a bad choice companies spend billions on encouraging/manipulating people to do. No, I'm not arguing that, either. You most definitely are. I suppose you may be trying to suggest that you personally are neutral and are simply pointing out it's a net benefit (but you are neutral on whether that benefit is good) for a corporation to protect it's customers from bad decisions, even if that means taking away the customers right to go to court rather than arbitration. Of course that doesn't make any sense, so I'm confident that you are actually saying that a corporation protecting a customer from making bad decisions is a good thing they should do (as opposed to not doing this thing you think is a net benefit for their customers). Go find the post where I say that the corporation is putting (or should put) in arbitration contracts for the good of the consumer. You better pack a suitcase before you go on this expedition because it's going to be a while. Would corporations putting in arbitration clauses be a net good for the consumer in your view? It depends upon the industry. But regardless of whether there's a net good for the consumer, the corporation obviously is doing it for its own purposes. Show nested quote +What motive would a corporation have to not do this thing for their consumers? All sorts of selfish motivations related to keeping litigation expensive or otherwise keeping the deck as stacked as possible in their favor.
So for the majority of cases where it would be a net good for a corporation to do this, and with selfish motivations (opposed to providing better service) and stacking the deck in opposition of the consumer, are you arguing that they should do the thing better for the consumer, the selfish deck stacking, or claiming to be neutral?
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I wonder if he knows this can not end well for him and is doing it anyways
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TLADT24920 Posts
Just a small reminder for you guys to keep the discussion civil and keep personal attacks out. If you feel frustrated by someone's posting and feel like things are going nowhere, take a breather or just politely duck out of the discussion with them. Thanks!
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On August 08 2017 05:55 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2017 05:49 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:44 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 08 2017 05:39 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 08 2017 05:28 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:22 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 08 2017 05:19 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:15 Gorsameth wrote:On August 08 2017 05:09 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
I've already made the argument for 4 repeatedly: arbitration is a cheaper alternative to civil litigation that affords better expected results to claimants (ie the little guy) that range from faster and cheaper dispute resolution to access to a remedy at all due to the claim being otherwise uneconomic for lawyers to get involved. You want to protect people from making bad choices in this case? But are against every other case of protecting people from making bad choices, because that's often the argument used by Democrats for government intervention. You are literally making the argument for Big Government, except you don't like the government so only businesses get to go Big Business and impose their will upon the people to protect them from themselves. The hilarious part is that everyone but you sees your doing this, that's why we're so amazed at what your saying. On August 08 2017 05:14 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
Quit being so dense. You asked me what the benefit to the consumer was. I told you what it was. Whether the consumer is smart enough to want it is irrelevant. Word for word the argument for big government regulating peoples lives... No, I'm not arguing for protecting people from making bad choices. I'm not arguing to compel anyone to do anything. The mere fact that you think I am shows that you are clueless as to what arbitration is and how it works. You are saying protecting people from bad choices is a good thing corporations should do. I find that especially funny because purchasing most consumer goods is a bad choice companies spend billions on encouraging/manipulating people to do. No, I'm not arguing that, either. You most definitely are. I suppose you may be trying to suggest that you personally are neutral and are simply pointing out it's a net benefit (but you are neutral on whether that benefit is good) for a corporation to protect it's customers from bad decisions, even if that means taking away the customers right to go to court rather than arbitration. Of course that doesn't make any sense, so I'm confident that you are actually saying that a corporation protecting a customer from making bad decisions is a good thing they should do (as opposed to not doing this thing you think is a net benefit for their customers). Go find the post where I say that the corporation is putting (or should put) in arbitration contracts for the good of the consumer. You better pack a suitcase before you go on this expedition because it's going to be a while. Would corporations putting in arbitration clauses be a net good for the consumer in your view? It depends upon the industry. But regardless of whether there's a net good for the consumer, the corporation obviously is doing it for its own purposes. What motive would a corporation have to not do this thing for their consumers? All sorts of selfish motivations related to keeping litigation expensive or otherwise keeping the deck as stacked as possible in their favor. So for the majority of cases where it would be a net good for a corporation to do this, and with selfish motivations (opposed to providing better service) and stacking the deck in opposition of the consumer, are you arguing that they should do the thing better for the consumer, the selfish deck stacking, or claiming to be neutral?
Why are you trying to insert and attribute some kind of judgment into the conversation? This isn't about what corporations "should do." I expect corporations to rationally act in their own best self-interest. Anything that they do that may tangentially improve the lot of the consumer is besides the point.
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On August 08 2017 06:02 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2017 05:55 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 08 2017 05:49 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:44 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 08 2017 05:39 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 08 2017 05:28 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:22 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 08 2017 05:19 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:15 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]
You want to protect people from making bad choices in this case?
But are against every other case of protecting people from making bad choices, because that's often the argument used by Democrats for government intervention.
You are literally making the argument for Big Government, except you don't like the government so only businesses get to go Big Business and impose their will upon the people to protect them from themselves.
The hilarious part is that everyone but you sees your doing this, that's why we're so amazed at what your saying.
[quote]
Word for word the argument for big government regulating peoples lives... No, I'm not arguing for protecting people from making bad choices. I'm not arguing to compel anyone to do anything. The mere fact that you think I am shows that you are clueless as to what arbitration is and how it works. You are saying protecting people from bad choices is a good thing corporations should do. I find that especially funny because purchasing most consumer goods is a bad choice companies spend billions on encouraging/manipulating people to do. No, I'm not arguing that, either. You most definitely are. I suppose you may be trying to suggest that you personally are neutral and are simply pointing out it's a net benefit (but you are neutral on whether that benefit is good) for a corporation to protect it's customers from bad decisions, even if that means taking away the customers right to go to court rather than arbitration. Of course that doesn't make any sense, so I'm confident that you are actually saying that a corporation protecting a customer from making bad decisions is a good thing they should do (as opposed to not doing this thing you think is a net benefit for their customers). Go find the post where I say that the corporation is putting (or should put) in arbitration contracts for the good of the consumer. You better pack a suitcase before you go on this expedition because it's going to be a while. Would corporations putting in arbitration clauses be a net good for the consumer in your view? It depends upon the industry. But regardless of whether there's a net good for the consumer, the corporation obviously is doing it for its own purposes. What motive would a corporation have to not do this thing for their consumers? All sorts of selfish motivations related to keeping litigation expensive or otherwise keeping the deck as stacked as possible in their favor. So for the majority of cases where it would be a net good for a corporation to do this, and with selfish motivations (opposed to providing better service) and stacking the deck in opposition of the consumer, are you arguing that they should do the thing better for the consumer, the selfish deck stacking, or claiming to be neutral? Why are you trying to insert and attribute some kind of judgment into the conversation? This isn't about what corporations "should do." I expect corporations to rationally act in their own best self-interest. Anything that they do that may tangentially improve the lot of the consumer is besides the point.
It's just fascinating mental gymnastics to watch. Way to stick the landing. I know it doesn't sound absurd and ridiculous to you, but for many of us how you get to this position is a bit confounding, and I thought illustrating it like this might help a few others better understand what your position actually is.
As to your points, I might suggest asking Alan Greenspan about expecting corporations to rationally act in their own best self-interest and ask GWB about getting fooled again.
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On August 08 2017 05:05 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2017 04:59 Adreme wrote:On August 08 2017 03:39 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 03:20 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2017 03:01 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 02:53 TheYango wrote:
My understanding of xDaunt's point thus far is that "arbitration as an option" leads to arbitration being underutilized in practice due to the inherent conflict of interest for a plaintiff's trial lawyers (since they make more $$$ if the case goes to trial). Forced arbitration is therefore a net gain via removing the option for bad faith-decisions made by trial lawyers for their own personal gain.
I'm not knowledgeable enough on the subject in question to assess the truthfulness of the claims made, but from an outside perspective, forced arbitration doesn't seem like solution to this problem. But it is *a* solution. My argument is that forced arbitration is not necessarily a bad thing, and for most claimants, it is likely a better way of resolving their claims. Thus, most criticisms of these types of clauses are misplaced. I'm still just not getting it. I'm fine with the concept that arbitration is a better way of resolving claims. Where you lose me is why that means it should be forced upon people. Especially coming from a conservative who normally lean towards "I don't need the big government telling me how much lead paint to lick off the walls". Are you going with "most people aren't harmed by stripping away their legal right to a trial so it's not a big deal"? Because otherwise I just don't see the link between "arbitration is often a good choice" and "people shouldn't have the right to go to trial". First, this is not a situation where government is forcing arbitration upon people. This is a situation where the government is removing rules that would prevent nursing homes from inserting arbitration clauses into their resident agreements. The conservative answer (such as it is) to the claimant's concern about giving up the right to a jury trial is that the claimant is free to use a nursing home that does not insert arbitration clauses into their resident agreements. Second, and as I have discussed above, the effect of giving up the right to a jury trial is not really a big deal, and if anything, it is beneficial to most types of claimants. The thing is though is that if its better for the business to have a forced arbitration clause then why would any nursing home not have one and therefore you do not have a choice or if you do its one of the ones that is so expensive that a normal person could not reasonably afford it. My question would be simply when they made this change who was it designed to benefit. It MIGHT benefit people because arbitration is often the correct course for reasons you said but it will no doubt benefit the people running those homes and I am hardpressed to not believe that was the motivation behind the change. Like I already pointed out, many businesses want the arbitration clauses because they want class action protection. And for those few plaintiffs for whom a class action would be beneficial, that sucks. However, the economics of civil litigation are such that most claimants will be better off in arbitration -- particularly an arbitration that dispenses with many of the formalities of court.
So its okay that people are not provided the ability to make there own decisions because the decisions that are being made for them are better? That is the gist of what I am seeing and that a solution being "well that sucks" is not really a great solution.
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On August 08 2017 06:12 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2017 05:05 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 04:59 Adreme wrote:On August 08 2017 03:39 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 03:20 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2017 03:01 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 02:53 TheYango wrote:
My understanding of xDaunt's point thus far is that "arbitration as an option" leads to arbitration being underutilized in practice due to the inherent conflict of interest for a plaintiff's trial lawyers (since they make more $$$ if the case goes to trial). Forced arbitration is therefore a net gain via removing the option for bad faith-decisions made by trial lawyers for their own personal gain.
I'm not knowledgeable enough on the subject in question to assess the truthfulness of the claims made, but from an outside perspective, forced arbitration doesn't seem like solution to this problem. But it is *a* solution. My argument is that forced arbitration is not necessarily a bad thing, and for most claimants, it is likely a better way of resolving their claims. Thus, most criticisms of these types of clauses are misplaced. I'm still just not getting it. I'm fine with the concept that arbitration is a better way of resolving claims. Where you lose me is why that means it should be forced upon people. Especially coming from a conservative who normally lean towards "I don't need the big government telling me how much lead paint to lick off the walls". Are you going with "most people aren't harmed by stripping away their legal right to a trial so it's not a big deal"? Because otherwise I just don't see the link between "arbitration is often a good choice" and "people shouldn't have the right to go to trial". First, this is not a situation where government is forcing arbitration upon people. This is a situation where the government is removing rules that would prevent nursing homes from inserting arbitration clauses into their resident agreements. The conservative answer (such as it is) to the claimant's concern about giving up the right to a jury trial is that the claimant is free to use a nursing home that does not insert arbitration clauses into their resident agreements. Second, and as I have discussed above, the effect of giving up the right to a jury trial is not really a big deal, and if anything, it is beneficial to most types of claimants. The thing is though is that if its better for the business to have a forced arbitration clause then why would any nursing home not have one and therefore you do not have a choice or if you do its one of the ones that is so expensive that a normal person could not reasonably afford it. My question would be simply when they made this change who was it designed to benefit. It MIGHT benefit people because arbitration is often the correct course for reasons you said but it will no doubt benefit the people running those homes and I am hardpressed to not believe that was the motivation behind the change. Like I already pointed out, many businesses want the arbitration clauses because they want class action protection. And for those few plaintiffs for whom a class action would be beneficial, that sucks. However, the economics of civil litigation are such that most claimants will be better off in arbitration -- particularly an arbitration that dispenses with many of the formalities of court. So its okay that people are not provided the ability to make there own decisions because the decisions that are being made for them are better? That is the gist of what I am seeing and that a solution being "well that sucks" is not really a great solution.
The whole premise of your post here is wrong. No decision is being made for anyone. By definition, arbitration can only happen by mutual agreement of the parties. Now, if you want to argue about adhesion contracts, disparities in bargaining power, and lack of market choice, go right ahead (though none of these arguments has anything to do with whether arbitration is good for the consumer). But framing this issue as one in which the government is removing consumer choice is incorrect.
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On August 08 2017 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2017 06:02 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:55 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 08 2017 05:49 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:44 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 08 2017 05:39 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 08 2017 05:28 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:22 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 08 2017 05:19 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
No, I'm not arguing for protecting people from making bad choices. I'm not arguing to compel anyone to do anything. The mere fact that you think I am shows that you are clueless as to what arbitration is and how it works. You are saying protecting people from bad choices is a good thing corporations should do. I find that especially funny because purchasing most consumer goods is a bad choice companies spend billions on encouraging/manipulating people to do. No, I'm not arguing that, either. You most definitely are. I suppose you may be trying to suggest that you personally are neutral and are simply pointing out it's a net benefit (but you are neutral on whether that benefit is good) for a corporation to protect it's customers from bad decisions, even if that means taking away the customers right to go to court rather than arbitration. Of course that doesn't make any sense, so I'm confident that you are actually saying that a corporation protecting a customer from making bad decisions is a good thing they should do (as opposed to not doing this thing you think is a net benefit for their customers). Go find the post where I say that the corporation is putting (or should put) in arbitration contracts for the good of the consumer. You better pack a suitcase before you go on this expedition because it's going to be a while. Would corporations putting in arbitration clauses be a net good for the consumer in your view? It depends upon the industry. But regardless of whether there's a net good for the consumer, the corporation obviously is doing it for its own purposes. What motive would a corporation have to not do this thing for their consumers? All sorts of selfish motivations related to keeping litigation expensive or otherwise keeping the deck as stacked as possible in their favor. So for the majority of cases where it would be a net good for a corporation to do this, and with selfish motivations (opposed to providing better service) and stacking the deck in opposition of the consumer, are you arguing that they should do the thing better for the consumer, the selfish deck stacking, or claiming to be neutral? Why are you trying to insert and attribute some kind of judgment into the conversation? This isn't about what corporations "should do." I expect corporations to rationally act in their own best self-interest. Anything that they do that may tangentially improve the lot of the consumer is besides the point. It's just fascinating mental gymnastics to watch. Way to stick the landing. I know it doesn't sound absurd and ridiculous to you, but for many of us how you get to this position is a bit confounding, and I thought illustrating it like this might help a few others better understand what your position actually is. As to your points, I might suggest asking Alan Greenspan about expecting corporations to rationally act in their own best self-interest and ask GWB about getting fooled again.
I assure that you no one who is versed in the law is confounded by what I am saying. I'm making very elementary and limited points. There are no mental gymnastics whatsoever. Y'all are the ones who reading all sorts of stuff into my posts that simply isn't there.
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United States43990 Posts
The problem of adhesion contracts, disparities in bargaining power, and lack of market choice and the problem of the government enforcing those mandatory arbitration agreements can't really be separated. When the lawyer for the corporation asks the judge to dismiss the suit on the grounds of the plaintiffs having already contractually surrendered their rights to pursue justice through the courts, that involves the government. The government makes a decision to either enforce the mandatory arbitration agreement or declare it unenforceable.
You can argue that they should be enforceable as you attempted to do earlier by suggesting that anything people willingly sign ought to be enforceable. But you can't insist that it has nothing to do with the government. Enforcement of contracts (and the lack of enforcement) is within the scope of government.
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On August 08 2017 06:23 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2017 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 08 2017 06:02 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:55 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 08 2017 05:49 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:44 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 08 2017 05:39 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 08 2017 05:28 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2017 05:22 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
You are saying protecting people from bad choices is a good thing corporations should do. I find that especially funny because purchasing most consumer goods is a bad choice companies spend billions on encouraging/manipulating people to do. No, I'm not arguing that, either. You most definitely are. I suppose you may be trying to suggest that you personally are neutral and are simply pointing out it's a net benefit (but you are neutral on whether that benefit is good) for a corporation to protect it's customers from bad decisions, even if that means taking away the customers right to go to court rather than arbitration. Of course that doesn't make any sense, so I'm confident that you are actually saying that a corporation protecting a customer from making bad decisions is a good thing they should do (as opposed to not doing this thing you think is a net benefit for their customers). Go find the post where I say that the corporation is putting (or should put) in arbitration contracts for the good of the consumer. You better pack a suitcase before you go on this expedition because it's going to be a while. Would corporations putting in arbitration clauses be a net good for the consumer in your view? It depends upon the industry. But regardless of whether there's a net good for the consumer, the corporation obviously is doing it for its own purposes. What motive would a corporation have to not do this thing for their consumers? All sorts of selfish motivations related to keeping litigation expensive or otherwise keeping the deck as stacked as possible in their favor. So for the majority of cases where it would be a net good for a corporation to do this, and with selfish motivations (opposed to providing better service) and stacking the deck in opposition of the consumer, are you arguing that they should do the thing better for the consumer, the selfish deck stacking, or claiming to be neutral? Why are you trying to insert and attribute some kind of judgment into the conversation? This isn't about what corporations "should do." I expect corporations to rationally act in their own best self-interest. Anything that they do that may tangentially improve the lot of the consumer is besides the point. It's just fascinating mental gymnastics to watch. Way to stick the landing. I know it doesn't sound absurd and ridiculous to you, but for many of us how you get to this position is a bit confounding, and I thought illustrating it like this might help a few others better understand what your position actually is. As to your points, I might suggest asking Alan Greenspan about expecting corporations to rationally act in their own best self-interest and ask GWB about getting fooled again. I assure that you no one who is versed in the law is confounded by what I am saying. I'm making very elementary and limited points. There are no mental gymnastics whatsoever. Y'all are the ones who reading all sorts of stuff into my posts that simply isn't there.
It shouldn't come as a shock to you that many are not versed in law and therefore confounded by the mental gymnastics that is our legal system (particularly the nuance your attempting to convey here).
People read more into your posts, partially because humans aren't legal computers, we're human beings and it's fascinating when people think they are instead acting as legal computers.
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EPT
