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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
July 20 2017 12:09 GMT
#162721
On July 20 2017 21:03 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2017 14:13 DannyJ wrote:
John McCain's mom is probably going to outlive him. Crazy...


Considering what the guy went through and the amount of abuse his body has taken it isnt THAT surprising. Still very sad. Best of luck to this real american hero.


It is if you think about the idea that she saw women get the right to vote.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Zambrah
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States7393 Posts
July 20 2017 12:19 GMT
#162722
On July 20 2017 21:03 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2017 14:13 DannyJ wrote:
John McCain's mom is probably going to outlive him. Crazy...


Considering what the guy went through and the amount of abuse his body has taken it isnt THAT surprising. Still very sad. Best of luck to this real american hero.


His mother is 105, sure as hell can't say the McCain line isn't tough as nails that's for sure, lol.
Incremental change is the Democrat version of Trickle Down economics.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
July 20 2017 12:27 GMT
#162723
I think every single one of my great grandmothers lived to at least their 90s. They were alive during the October Revolution. Whereas my great grandfathers started started peeling off at 70 and none of them lived to 90.

Women live longer. Not really too odd to have something like this happen.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Kickboxer
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Slovenia1308 Posts
July 20 2017 12:29 GMT
#162724
One reason men are paid more is that the top end of the professional range for most of the highest paid occupations, meaning working 10 hours a day 6 days a week in banking, law, stock exchange, surgery, management, gambling, programing etc. is almost exclusively occupied by men - since men are, in general, the only ones crazy enough to live like that.

It's not a knock on women, the question is rather why anyone would be willing to sacrifice their complete intimate life for career and status. When it comes to these kinds of humans, the ration between men and women is totally broken and doesn't seem to be changing. Likely connected to motherhood on the one hand and testosterone on the other.

Another reason is men take all the dangerous occupations, and all those that require peak physical performance. Many are well compensated. For example, male sportsmen earn an extra zero on their contract since they bring in ten times as many viewers. Which only makes sense.

How to address these?
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-20 12:37:27
July 20 2017 12:36 GMT
#162725
Perhaps modify the psychology of men to make them more sane?

No normal person would work 90+ hour weeks - and women seem to understand that better than men.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
PoulsenB
Profile Joined June 2011
Poland7769 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-20 12:42:18
July 20 2017 12:41 GMT
#162726
On July 20 2017 21:29 Kickboxer wrote:
One reason men are paid more is that the top end of the professional range for most of the highest paid occupations, meaning working 10 hours a day 6 days a week in banking, law, stock exchange, surgery, management, gambling, programing etc. is almost exclusively occupied by men - since men are, in general, the only ones crazy enough to live like that.

It's not a knock on women, the question is rather why anyone would be willing to sacrifice their complete intimate life for career and status. When it comes to these kinds of humans, the ration between men and women is totally broken and doesn't seem to be changing. Likely connected to motherhood on the one hand and testosterone on the other.

Another reason is men take all the dangerous occupations, and all those that require peak physical performance. Many are well compensated. For example, male sportsmen earn an extra zero on their contract since they bring in ten times as many viewers. Which only makes sense.

How to address these?

The wage gap relates to situations where a woman earns less than a man on the same position (e.g. two employees in the same company doing the same job, but a woman earns less than a man). Gender ratio disproportions in employment for different occupations are another thing altogether.
IdrA fan forever <3 || the clueless one || Marci must be protected at all costs
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
July 20 2017 12:41 GMT
#162727
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
July 20 2017 12:44 GMT
#162728
I think the incompetence of the Republicans bought Obamacare a 1-3 year extended lease on life.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Trainrunnef
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States601 Posts
July 20 2017 12:48 GMT
#162729
On July 20 2017 21:29 Kickboxer wrote:
One reason men are paid more is that the top end of the professional range for most of the highest paid occupations, meaning working 10 hours a day 6 days a week in banking, law, stock exchange, surgery, management, gambling, programing etc. is almost exclusively occupied by men - since men are, in general, the only ones crazy enough to live like that.

It's not a knock on women, the question is rather why anyone would be willing to sacrifice their complete intimate life for career and status. When it comes to these kinds of humans, the ration between men and women is totally broken and doesn't seem to be changing. Likely connected to motherhood on the one hand and testosterone on the other.

Another reason is men take all the dangerous occupations, and all those that require peak physical performance. Many are well compensated. For example, male sportsmen earn an extra zero on their contract since they bring in ten times as many viewers. Which only makes sense.

How to address these?



I think a good place to start is by not ignoring the fact that up until very recently women weren't allowed to be in these highest paid occupations. for example

+ Show Spoiler +
Until 1970, women never made up more than 6% of any medical school class in the United States or Canada.10 The American College of Surgeons admitted 1 woman in 1913, Florence Duckering, and then 0–5 women per year until 1975, making up less than 2% of the classes. In 1970, there was an increase in the number of women applying to medical school as a result of a number of factors: an increase in the overall number of positions, the rise of the women’s movement, the growing numbers of female baby boomers who were finishing college and the ratification of the equal opportunity act.

Women made up about 5% of all physicians in the United States in 1970; the number rose to 24% in 2001. Currently medical school enrolment, as estimated by the American Association of Medical Colleges (AAMC), is about equal between men and women. In 1980, women made up about 2% of all female surgical residents, including those in obstetrics and gynecology, in the United States; the number rose to only 14% in 2001. It is apparent that the medical student ratio far outweighs the number of female medical residents.


But more to your point I think there is a self selection that happens in certain fields where the time commitment is too demanding to have a family, I hardly doubt this is a female only issue though, as I had to make the same call when I was choosing between medicine and engineering.

I think part of it boils down to having role models in the field that have been able to do both (raise a family and be successful), and without having a good amount of women in the field to be those role models it makes it difficult to believe in the possibility. Who came first the chicken or the egg...

Regarding the peak physical performance i think my first point applies as well. we purposely segregate women into leagues with other women at a young age so the outcomes at the professional level will obviously be different. If we were to group them together with men ( I believe there are a few sports where this is totally feasible - baseball, tennis, soccer to name a few) I think they would do just fine.

+ Show Spoiler +
as an anecdote my niece is fantastic in baseball, she plays on an older boys teams at this point because she is too big to play with kids her age. I know that sadly she will have to either pick up softball if she chooses to continue professionally, or give up on the sport all together because there is no place for her in american baseball, regardless of how good she is, no team will sign her. As typical for a minority (girl in a boys sport) you have to be 10x as good as the next guy to get half the recognition, which she has gotten so far, but how long will she stay that much better?



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2724816/
I am, therefore I pee
GoTuNk!
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Chile4591 Posts
July 20 2017 12:51 GMT
#162730
On July 20 2017 17:03 Falling wrote:
Show nested quote +
Or is that biological too Falling?

Well, no it isn't. That's clearly an attitude that will hopefully change over time.
edit
That's a choice a woman can make in the modern era, and a choice she should be able to make. But equally, any woman that decides, voluntarily, because they want to stay at home for extended periods of time to care for her new family, shouldn't be seen as messing up the gender distribution that otherwise- that they are being chased out of the workforce due to socialization and societal expectation. If they want to go back to work right away and the family can find a reasonable way to take care of the children, all power to them. And if one of the parents wants to cut back on work to care for the children, all power to them. The concern and indeed preoccupation for equal distribution across all jobs to some extent makes paid work the pinnacle of fulfillment and necessarily denigrates child rearing to being something rather lesser- that is something is wrong with society if one gender or the other on average must or is forced to cut back on their career. (Notice my emphasized words which betrays a certain view.) Seeing child rearing as an obligation and an obstruction to a career is a fairly low view of family in comparison to career. And I mean this for men and women. ...I don't know. I'm musing as I'm typing as I'm struggling to articulate what I'm seeing in society.
/end edit

But anyways, notice we aren't actually talking about a wage gap anymore. What we are actually talking about is desirable distribution by occupation. That's a very different thing and something that .7 to the dollar doesn't really touch. It's a distractor. (Insofar that it isn't true when comparing like occupation and like experience- if two teachers of equal training and experience are getting paid differently based upon gender, that is illegal and should be stopped immediately.)

I mean, it's certainly worth finding out if women are entering and exiting their occupation by choice or if they are getting blocked by the patriarchy. But it's not quite so simple because couples are making decisions on what makes sense for them as a family. It might not line up with a neat and tidy equal distribution in every occupation from garbage truck drivers to nurses... or maybe it might. But I think too often this discussion thinks too big picture- systems- and precludes the actual individuals, their agency, that are making decisions based on their hopes, dreams, and limitations.



I still don't understand what's so horrible about people forming families, and that the father works more simply because they are in a better position to do it. Or well, because they both choose to it would be easier that way. What's wrong with woman wanting to personally raise their children? And the father taking care of their family economically?

Plus I find this idea of putting babies on daycare just because horrible, raising babies is an extremely important task where the love of the parents (specially the mother) is important. People are not interchangable legos, having your babies being raised since age 2 by other people and then wondering why they hate you at 16 seems a no brainer to me.

It seems you can only make voluntary arrangements in certain ways.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
July 20 2017 12:55 GMT
#162731
On July 20 2017 21:41 PoulsenB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2017 21:29 Kickboxer wrote:
One reason men are paid more is that the top end of the professional range for most of the highest paid occupations, meaning working 10 hours a day 6 days a week in banking, law, stock exchange, surgery, management, gambling, programing etc. is almost exclusively occupied by men - since men are, in general, the only ones crazy enough to live like that.

It's not a knock on women, the question is rather why anyone would be willing to sacrifice their complete intimate life for career and status. When it comes to these kinds of humans, the ration between men and women is totally broken and doesn't seem to be changing. Likely connected to motherhood on the one hand and testosterone on the other.

Another reason is men take all the dangerous occupations, and all those that require peak physical performance. Many are well compensated. For example, male sportsmen earn an extra zero on their contract since they bring in ten times as many viewers. Which only makes sense.

How to address these?

The wage gap relates to situations where a woman earns less than a man on the same position (e.g. two employees in the same company doing the same job, but a woman earns less than a man). Gender ratio disproportions in employment for different occupations are another thing altogether.

Wage gap also refers to median hourly earnings for the sexes, not women and men in the same position. That's how you originally got 70cents on the dollar, and how Pew gets it current 84cents on the dollar. It's also why certain controlled statistics show the opposite result: young single childless women outearn men in metro areas. And controlling for position and experience gives single-digit pay gaps.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Zambrah
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States7393 Posts
July 20 2017 12:56 GMT
#162732
From the moment the insurance, you're 21 years old... You start working and youre paying $12 a year... For insurance...

Please Jesus someone translate cause this gives me the impression he thinks insurance costs 12 a year and I just... I mean... I am so... Befuddled?
Incremental change is the Democrat version of Trickle Down economics.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
July 20 2017 12:57 GMT
#162733
On July 20 2017 21:44 LegalLord wrote:
I think the incompetence of the Republicans bought Obamacare a 1-3 year extended lease on life.

I think it's here to stay. Republicans won't increase their majority by going back on campaign promises, and Democrats will be as eager as ever to keep it.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
July 20 2017 13:11 GMT
#162734
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
July 20 2017 13:12 GMT
#162735
On July 20 2017 21:57 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2017 21:44 LegalLord wrote:
I think the incompetence of the Republicans bought Obamacare a 1-3 year extended lease on life.

I think it's here to stay. Republicans won't increase their majority by going back on campaign promises, and Democrats will be as eager as ever to keep it.

It's also an unstable stopgap solution that doesn't really solve the bigger price issues, it just takes better care of the most vulnerable. It's much better than the Republican solution and it's better than nothing but it won't last forever.

Of course, UHC is the best viable alternative, so meh.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
July 20 2017 13:15 GMT
#162736
On July 20 2017 21:41 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://twitter.com/brianklaas/status/887958110794547200


Dah fuck did I just read? I think people saying he speaks/thinks at an 8th grade level were being generous.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
July 20 2017 13:28 GMT
#162737
"And I can tell you, we hope John McCain gets better very soon. Because we miss him. He is a crusty voice in Washington...Plus, we need his vote."


D. Trump, 7/17


Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) has been diagnosed with a brain tumor, his office said Wednesday, throwing into doubt when and if he will return to Washington to resume his duties in the Senate.


www.msn.com
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
July 20 2017 13:28 GMT
#162738
On July 20 2017 22:12 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2017 21:57 Danglars wrote:
On July 20 2017 21:44 LegalLord wrote:
I think the incompetence of the Republicans bought Obamacare a 1-3 year extended lease on life.

I think it's here to stay. Republicans won't increase their majority by going back on campaign promises, and Democrats will be as eager as ever to keep it.

It's also an unstable stopgap solution that doesn't really solve the bigger price issues, it just takes better care of the most vulnerable. It's much better than the Republican solution and it's better than nothing but it won't last forever.

Of course, UHC is the best viable alternative, so meh.

Debatable, but I'm familiar with your perspective on this.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
July 20 2017 13:32 GMT
#162739
Maxine Waters, a Democratic congresswoman from my home state, is traveling to New Hampshire this weekend for a picnic. I really hope she runs in 2020; she's such an American treasure.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
July 20 2017 13:36 GMT
#162740
She certainly is something very special. I get a sort of sad laugh out of it whenever she comes out with one of her trademark foot in mouth statements.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
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