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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 7946

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
June 26 2017 21:46 GMT
#158901
On June 27 2017 06:44 Plansix wrote:
Wait, are 7 million people slated to lose healthcare next year if nothing is done to the ACA? Is that the argument?

I think it's 8 million, but his argument that that number is only increased by 7 million somehow makes it an improvement, when the purpose of healthcare legislation should be to reduce the number, not increase it.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
June 26 2017 21:47 GMT
#158902
On June 27 2017 06:41 Buckyman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2017 06:33 NewSunshine wrote:
That's not how math works, it's 15 million per year next year, not 7. Still 88% worse.


15 million people = (2 years' projection under old rules) - (current value plus one year's projection under new rules)
8 million people = (1 years' projection under old rules) - (current value)
Therefore:
7 million people = (1 year's projection under old rules) - (one year's projection under new rules)

I'm doing a bit of apples-to-oranges in assuming the second year projection under the old rules will continue to be as optimistic as it was over the first year, but the new projection will be accurate.

Regardless, the way he put it presents the 15 million figure as though it were the 7 million figure. A majority of the people in that 15 million figure have already 'lost' their insurance.


You're saying Obamacare is projected to lose more insured people than the new law?
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10989 Posts
June 26 2017 21:48 GMT
#158903
Is it just me or have xDaunt, Danglars and Introvert been staggeringly silent on the healthcare bill?

I mean.. At least 2 of them are often around and comment on most "important" stuff but...
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-26 21:55:03
June 26 2017 21:51 GMT
#158904
On June 27 2017 06:46 NewSunshine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2017 06:44 Plansix wrote:
Wait, are 7 million people slated to lose healthcare next year if nothing is done to the ACA? Is that the argument?

I think it's 8 million, but his argument that that number is only increased by 7 million somehow makes it an improvement, when the purpose of healthcare legislation should be to reduce the number, not increase it.

That isn’t how politics works. The party in power can’t argue that it is only 7 million because the other 8 million would have lost healthcare anyways. If the bill passes on party lines(which it will), everything that comes afterwords is that party’s problem. They can pass a bill that lowers that 8 million too, but that would require working with democrats.

Edit: Also his math is wrong per NPR.

http://www.npr.org/2017/06/26/534432433/gop-senate-bill-would-cut-health-care-coverage-by-22-million

Congressional forecasters say a Senate bill that aims to repeal and replace the Affordable Care Act would leave 22 million more people uninsured by 2026, with 15 million more uninsured by 2018 compared to the current health care law.



On June 27 2017 06:48 Velr wrote:
Is it just me or have xDaunt, Danglars and Introvert been staggeringly silent on the healthcare bill?

I mean.. At least 2 of them are often around and comment on most "important" stuff but...


I believe both of them have said that it is a bit of a dumpster fire and the process is bad.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
June 26 2017 21:51 GMT
#158905
On June 27 2017 06:48 Velr wrote:
Is it just me or have xDaunt, Danglars and Introvert been staggeringly silent on the healthcare bill?

I mean.. At least 2 of them are often around and comment on most "important" stuff but...

They've been at their usual, bring up stuff to distract from the actual disaster Trump is about to sign off on, simultaneously defending him but also somehow criticizing him, thing.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
Buckyman
Profile Joined May 2014
1364 Posts
June 26 2017 21:54 GMT
#158906
On June 27 2017 06:44 Plansix wrote:
Wait, are 7 million people slated to lose healthcare next year if nothing is done to the ACA? Is that the argument?


No.

The CBO has defined lost as "our 2016 projection says they'll have health insurance, but they won't under the new circumstances". Some of these people never actually had health insurance in the first place, but deterring them from obtaining it is deemed a loss.

The 2016 projection has diverged from actual insurance enrollment. About 8 million people don't have insurance, that should according to the projection. These 8 million 'losses' are being included in the apparent losses of the various affordable-health reforms.

But that's 2016-2017. Given that the projections have already proven optimistic, how many more people will 'lose' insurance in 2017-2018 if nothing is done? It seems more likely than not that the projections will continue to be optimistic about the "no changes" case, but I don't know by how much.


Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-26 22:02:20
June 26 2017 21:58 GMT
#158907
On June 27 2017 06:54 Buckyman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2017 06:44 Plansix wrote:
Wait, are 7 million people slated to lose healthcare next year if nothing is done to the ACA? Is that the argument?


No.

The CBO has defined lost as "our 2016 projection says they'll have health insurance, but they won't under the new circumstances". Some of these people never actually had health insurance in the first place, but deterring them from obtaining it is deemed a loss.

The 2016 projection has diverged from actual insurance enrollment. About 8 million people don't have insurance, that should according to the projection. These 8 million 'losses' are being included in the apparent losses of the various affordable-health reforms.

But that's 2016-2017. Given that the projections have already proven optimistic, how many more people will 'lose' insurance in 2017-2018 if nothing is done? It seems more likely than not that the projections will continue to be optimistic about the "no changes" case, but I don't know by how much.



Every report I am saying says the CBO score shows 15 million more will lose healthcare next year under Senate Bill than under the ACA. I get that the report is imperfect and could be off, but nothing supports it being off to the level you are implying.

Further more: The CBO says that around 4 million people would lose their employer provided insurance as well. 9 million by 2022. That sounds awesome.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
June 26 2017 21:59 GMT
#158908
On June 27 2017 06:54 Buckyman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2017 06:44 Plansix wrote:
Wait, are 7 million people slated to lose healthcare next year if nothing is done to the ACA? Is that the argument?


No.

The CBO has defined lost as "our 2016 projection says they'll have health insurance, but they won't under the new circumstances". Some of these people never actually had health insurance in the first place, but deterring them from obtaining it is deemed a loss.

The 2016 projection has diverged from actual insurance enrollment. About 8 million people don't have insurance, that should according to the projection. These 8 million 'losses' are being included in the apparent losses of the various affordable-health reforms.

But that's 2016-2017. Given that the projections have already proven optimistic, how many more people will 'lose' insurance in 2017-2018 if nothing is done? It seems more likely than not that the projections will continue to be optimistic about the "no changes" case, but I don't know by how much.




The projections could be optimistic for the new law, too, unless we have reason to believe otherwise.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-26 22:00:36
June 26 2017 21:59 GMT
#158909
i dont see the issue. theyre uninsured now, but if im understanding correctly under the ACA, ie the status quo/ control scenario, they would enroll. so the CBO is estimating the net difference/ loss between the AHCA and ACA scenarios is 22m.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-26 22:07:11
June 26 2017 22:05 GMT
#158910
After Decline Of Steel And Coal, Ohio Fears Health Care Jobs Are Next

When people talk about jobs in Ohio, they often talk about the ones that got away.

"Ten years ago, we had steel. Ten years ago, we had coal. Ten years ago, we had plentiful jobs," says Mike McGlumphy, who runs the job center in Steubenville, Ohio, the Jefferson County seat.

Today, the city on the Ohio River is a shell of its former self. And health care has overtaken manufacturing as the county's main economic driver.

1 in 4 private sector jobs in the county are now in health care. The region's biggest employer by far is the local hospital. Trinity Health System provides about 1,500 full-time jobs and close to 500 part-time jobs, more than Jefferson County's top 10 manufacturing companies combined.

Still, unemployment in Jefferson County stands at 7 percent, 2 percent higher than the state overall. And health care leaders worry that the Republican proposals to repeal and replace the Affordable Care Act could take many health care jobs away.

Specifically, they're concerned about the rollback of Medicaid that is central to both the House and Senate bills. Ohio was among the states that expanded Medicaid under the ACA, adding 700,000 additional low-income or disabled people to the rolls.

The Congressional Budget Office estimates that the Senate bill, the Better Care Reconciliation Act, would cut Medicaid spending by $772 billion over the next 10 years, whereas the House bill, the American Health Care Act, would cut the program by $880 million over the same period.

At Trinity Health, 1 in 5 patients are on Medicaid, slightly lower than the state average. Joe Tasse, the hospital's acting CEO, warns that cuts to Medicaid could imperil jobs as well as the hospital's bottom line.

"It would be pretty devastating," he says. "If Trinity Hospital were to fail, this region economically would fail."

Tasse says under the AHCA, Trinity could stand to lose $60 million over 10 years. He says that's the equivalent of a thousand or more hospital jobs.

His fears are backed up by the liberal-leaning Economic Policy Institute, which projects that more than 81,000 jobs in Ohio could be lost within five years under the AHCA, resulting in a 0.7 percent drop in the state's overall employment.

A big challenge, Tasse says, is that departments such as emergency care and obstetrics, which have high rates of Medicaid patients, are also among the most costly to operate. Given the 24/7 nature of the care they provide, they can't cut back on staffing on days when demand is slack.

"An OB department is really an emergency department for women and obstetrics," said Tasse, pointing out that most births are not scheduled. "If you want to have that service and provide it for your community, you have to incur that cost. There's really not a way around it. Unless you want to tell the women, 'Hey, we're closing our service,' which many hospitals have had to do. 'Here's your bus ticket or here's the car ride that you have to take to deliver.'"

Trinity's obstetrics and emergency care departments are now also dealing daily with the opioid crisis. At Trinity, 1 in 5 babies are born prenatally exposed to opioids, adding complications and cost. In the emergency room, nurses are seeing so many overdose cases that they are set up to meet patients in their cars at the entrance, armed with the antidote drug naloxone.

Under federal law, hospitals are required to treat anyone seeking emergency care. So if Medicaid were cut back, Tasse says they wouldn't turn patients away at the door. They would scale back in other ways.

"Where we've tried to move patients to preventive [care], identifying health problems earlier — that would all go away," he says. He'd expect more patients showing up in the emergency department, "sicker [and] more expensive."


source

1/6th of the economy.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
June 26 2017 22:08 GMT
#158911
On June 27 2017 06:36 Logo wrote:
Does the study even address if this was a rational outcome by businesses or not? How much does the companies' desire not to pay higher minimum wages factor into their decisions about how to staff? It is also looking at the short term it seems like?

Like no one expects raising the minimum wage to create new money out of thin air, the expectation is it's going to come from the top down..

So yeah for now wages are cut because hours were cut to keep the previous equilibrium, but what happens in a year (or better yet several) from now when companies have thought about their next year budget and have decided between giving raising and increasing hours for minimum wage workers?

That and it's not peer reviewed yet. Sloppy reporting.

I'm also curious if it's underselling the effect on people working multiple jobs. If you're working two jobs but now can get the same (or slightly less) money for significantly less hours that could be a big external benefit to you.

The study looked at working hours lost, averaged among those workers. The overall point was that total work hours were lost, not that everyone made less money.

And they did try to account for placebo effects, meaning companies reacting to change, as opposed to the market shifting to account for it.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
June 26 2017 22:08 GMT
#158912
On June 27 2017 06:48 Velr wrote:
Is it just me or have xDaunt, Danglars and Introvert been staggeringly silent on the healthcare bill?

I mean.. At least 2 of them are often around and comment on most "important" stuff but...


I'm pretty sure I've seen xDaunt say how bad the bills from the Republicans are (maybe I dreamed it?). Danglers would have to step out of his comfort zone of defending Trump so don't expect much.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
June 26 2017 22:09 GMT
#158913
On June 27 2017 06:51 NewSunshine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2017 06:48 Velr wrote:
Is it just me or have xDaunt, Danglars and Introvert been staggeringly silent on the healthcare bill?

I mean.. At least 2 of them are often around and comment on most "important" stuff but...

They've been at their usual, bring up stuff to distract from the actual disaster Trump is about to sign off on, simultaneously defending him but also somehow criticizing him, thing.

Uhh how much more to add that it's a bad bill that needs to be scrapped and Trump's wrong to push it (I think I'm up to three times reiterating and explaining that last bit--I'm guessing the appropriate time to stop criticism is when people say you've repeated yourself too much?).

Criticizing him when he's wrong and praising him when he's right has never been enough for the libs in the forum. They, and I suspect you, demand full throated smackdowns every third post and support for his political opponents, who I've been also calling for the carpet for their juvenile and short-sighted party strategy and content of their criticism. At some point, I gotta conclude people are simply tired of the debate and "it's to distract from Trump" is your the last feeble attempt to group issue conservatives with alt-right MAGA twitter-frogs.

simultaneously defending him but also somehow criticizing him

This is probably the most transparent recent admission that you don't read nuanced positions of criticism. "I didn't bother to sift through what you write, but here's my perspective on your interactions here anyways." It's rather astounding that people want buy-in from the maybe three somewhat-active conservatives in a thread, compared to literally dozens of libs, simultaneously showing a pattern of ignoring their/our perspective.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
June 26 2017 22:12 GMT
#158914
iirc dangles and xdaunt have both mentioned that both bills are garbage and they're both for single payer, though i still have some trouble understanding/ forgot how single payer foots with their political philosophies
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
June 26 2017 22:15 GMT
#158915
On June 27 2017 06:48 Velr wrote:
Is it just me or have xDaunt, Danglars and Introvert been staggeringly silent on the healthcare bill?

I mean.. At least 2 of them are often around and comment on most "important" stuff but...

I have already crapped on the healthcare bills and have been too busy to bother regurgitating prior posts. When y'all start being interesting again (or if something noteworthy happens), I may start posting more frequently.
Buckyman
Profile Joined May 2014
1364 Posts
June 26 2017 22:20 GMT
#158916
[B]On June 27 2017 07:05 Plansix wrote:[/B

source

1/6th of the economy.

tl;dr health care has eaten so much of their economy that it's now too big to fail.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5082 Posts
June 26 2017 22:32 GMT
#158917
On June 27 2017 06:48 Velr wrote:
Is it just me or have xDaunt, Danglars and Introvert been staggeringly silent on the healthcare bill?

I mean.. At least 2 of them are often around and comment on most "important" stuff but...


I'm normally busy during peak posting hours, all I've seen so far are tweets. Rest assured that, as someone who wants full repeal, I don't like this bill, as it even seems like the Medicaid "cuts" (read: reduction in increase) are never going to happen.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
June 26 2017 22:33 GMT
#158918
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
June 26 2017 22:34 GMT
#158919
The healthcare bills are utter trash and no one likes them. I wouldn't blame people for choosing not to belabor a point.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22703 Posts
June 26 2017 22:34 GMT
#158920
On June 27 2017 07:32 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2017 06:48 Velr wrote:
Is it just me or have xDaunt, Danglars and Introvert been staggeringly silent on the healthcare bill?

I mean.. At least 2 of them are often around and comment on most "important" stuff but...


I'm normally busy during peak posting hours, all I've seen so far are tweets. Rest assured that, as someone who wants full repeal, I don't like this bill, as it even seems like the Medicaid "cuts" (read: reduction in increase) are never going to happen.

You think this bill does not fuck over enough people yet?
Because that is what a full repeal and Medicare cut is.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
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