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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20255 Posts
June 26 2017 02:48 GMT
#158781
On June 26 2017 11:43 Nyxisto wrote:
The Democrats don't have one message, they're more of a coalition of groups whereas the Republican party presents an ideological platform. The democratic message wasn't bad, it just didn't mobilise the voters who way too often are concerned with fighting each other.

This is even true on this internet board. 80% of the thread is Greenhorizon debating some Clinton voter why Clinton sucked even six months after Clinton lost the election. It's not exactly surprising that this kind of incoherence makes you lose an election.


Republicans have their own dissenting groups within the party. Only thing that is different is that in the end they will cooperate on the vote to get their people in over Dems and wait to fight amongst themselves once they are elected. Dems will fight each other in the middle of election season.
Never Knows Best.
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-26 03:16:31
June 26 2017 03:11 GMT
#158782
"Middle class" doesn't really mean anything anyway. Most of the people who receive large subsidies for their insurance plans through the ACA probably consider themselves middle class.

I do feel like lately it's being used as shorthand for "working-aged to middle-aged white males in purple states (often without college degrees)" though, considering they're pretty much the demographic that was pivotal in Clinton losing the White House and the group with whom her message flopped with the most.

Edit: Incidentally, I think a lot of the Democratic rhetoric about "resurrecting the middle class" is a major problem in this respect. It basically tells all those people "no, you're actually poor." Nobody wants to be told they're poor, regardless of whether it's Clinton, Sanders, or Obama.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
June 26 2017 03:42 GMT
#158783
Hey if Hillary colluded, it's okay if I did too, right?

xwoGworwaTsx
Profile Joined April 2012
United States984 Posts
June 26 2017 03:47 GMT
#158784
On June 26 2017 12:11 TheTenthDoc wrote:
"Middle class" doesn't really mean anything anyway. Most of the people who receive large subsidies for their insurance plans through the ACA probably consider themselves middle class.

I do feel like lately it's being used as shorthand for "working-aged to middle-aged white males in purple states (often without college degrees)" though, considering they're pretty much the demographic that was pivotal in Clinton losing the White House and the group with whom her message flopped with the most.

Edit: Incidentally, I think a lot of the Democratic rhetoric about "resurrecting the middle class" is a major problem in this respect. It basically tells all those people "no, you're actually poor." Nobody wants to be told they're poor, regardless of whether it's Clinton, Sanders, or Obama.

That's the thing about politics. You need to educate the citizens
Buckyman
Profile Joined May 2014
1364 Posts
June 26 2017 03:49 GMT
#158785
On June 26 2017 12:47 xwoGworwaTsx wrote:
That's the thing about politics. You need to educate the citizens


That explains why Republicans have been pushing school choice lately.
Adreme
Profile Joined June 2011
United States5574 Posts
June 26 2017 03:53 GMT
#158786
On June 26 2017 09:58 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2017 08:09 Plansix wrote:
On June 26 2017 08:08 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
So we just have to wait and hope Dems get congress to enact some kind of bill to enforce more stringent bills. The economy will be fine.

If the economy tanks, it pretty much assures that. That is what happened in 2007-2008.


This is why Democrats cheered on the Republicans for passing their anti-Healthcare plan. They think the reason they lost 1000+ seats is because people forgot how terrible Republicans were.

Spoiler alert: We all know, half the voting public still thinks they are less bad than Democrats.

This is like a rerun of Hillary wanting a public option and suggesting it was Republicans that prevented her, then when Democrats are in the position to say "F Republicans we can get the public option the overwhelming majority of our party has wanted for decades" turned out huge Democrat majorities wasn't even enough to pass something Democrats have allegedly wanted for generations.

All that's to say we could give Democrats 60 seats and they still couldn't pass shit, they suck at everything except ensuring the status quo is "better than the alternative". Actually having people advocate for the slow erosion of progress we made over the last 100 years, because it's better than a more rapid erosion. Eliminating from the realm of possibility refusing to support the people benefiting from exploiting us. Like, F that.


Except for democrats to do anything during there brief supermajority (stupid name for reasons ill explain) they needed literally EVERY democrat in the senate to vote for something to get past a filibuster. I cant say its a massive majority when they only way to get anything done is when your entire party has to vote yes on something for it to get done. That is what is called a slim majority. In order to get the afformentioned public option you would need 60 democrats to support it and there were not at the time. I think there were 53 or 54 which while 90% of the democrats in the senate and a majority of the senate is still not enough to actually do anything.

Republicans by and large have an easier time in the Senate (though they cant do a lot of big things either) because there legislation can be done with a simple majority.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43989 Posts
June 26 2017 03:55 GMT
#158787
On June 26 2017 12:49 Buckyman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2017 12:47 xwoGworwaTsx wrote:
That's the thing about politics. You need to educate the citizens


That explains why Republicans have been pushing school choice lately.

I'm honestly unsure if this is a cynical barb about how Republican school choice policies have systematically denied a generation of Americans a decent education (creating their own future voters) or if you don't know that "school choice" typically results in the privatization of education, areas left without good schools and teachers, and tax dollars flowing to corporations through a voucher system.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
June 26 2017 05:34 GMT
#158788
On June 26 2017 12:55 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2017 12:49 Buckyman wrote:
On June 26 2017 12:47 xwoGworwaTsx wrote:
That's the thing about politics. You need to educate the citizens


That explains why Republicans have been pushing school choice lately.

I'm honestly unsure if this is a cynical barb about how Republican school choice policies have systematically denied a generation of Americans a decent education (creating their own future voters) or if you don't know that "school choice" typically results in the privatization of education, areas left without good schools and teachers, and tax dollars flowing to corporations through a voucher system.

Through your explanation of the former, I think you answered your own question.

(I think it's the former, I'm hoping)
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
ZerOCoolSC2
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
9057 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-26 06:02:31
June 26 2017 05:58 GMT
#158789
I went back and watched some Jon Stewart clips. I miss him.

Doodsmack, he's playing by the rules that were set before he took office. He should be off the hook after he took office, since it wasn't brought up immediately after he won. /s

Pro school choice is such a clusterfuck and asinine argument to be in favor for, that anyone who agrees with that is lost. I can't even form the words to type.
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
June 26 2017 06:08 GMT
#158790
At least Republican lawmakers are consistent. They want education to be an un-affordable, for-profit institution, just like the other building block of a functioning population, healthcare.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23955 Posts
June 26 2017 06:21 GMT
#158791
On June 26 2017 11:41 Slaughter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2017 11:38 xDaunt wrote:
And let me offer this additional thought: that Trump's message better resonated with the middle class doesn't necessarily mean that his message was good. What it unequivocally means, however, is that the Democrats' message is bad.


Well he did lose by a considerable margin in the vote count. A tiny shift would have swung it the other way. I dunno if the Dems need a major change or just tweaks in how they target their messaging.


The fundamental problem I have with this perspective is that it resigns us to embracing that ~47% of people aren't participating in our democracy. If it weren't for third parties we'd probably already have a majority of Americans giving up on democracy.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20255 Posts
June 26 2017 06:47 GMT
#158792
On June 26 2017 15:21 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2017 11:41 Slaughter wrote:
On June 26 2017 11:38 xDaunt wrote:
And let me offer this additional thought: that Trump's message better resonated with the middle class doesn't necessarily mean that his message was good. What it unequivocally means, however, is that the Democrats' message is bad.


Well he did lose by a considerable margin in the vote count. A tiny shift would have swung it the other way. I dunno if the Dems need a major change or just tweaks in how they target their messaging.


The fundamental problem I have with this perspective is that it resigns us to embracing that ~47% of people aren't participating in our democracy. If it weren't for third parties we'd probably already have a majority of Americans giving up on democracy.


When was the last time we had super high participation in elections? I mean it is pretty embarrassing and it just gets worse as you go down to state and local level.
Never Knows Best.
ZerOCoolSC2
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
9057 Posts
June 26 2017 06:51 GMT
#158793
I'm pretty sure 2008 was really high. I think Kennedy was the earliest and latest time we had a mass turn out for votes. State level would probably go to California or NY around Arnold or 9/11.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23955 Posts
June 26 2017 06:54 GMT
#158794
On June 26 2017 15:47 Slaughter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2017 15:21 GreenHorizons wrote:
On June 26 2017 11:41 Slaughter wrote:
On June 26 2017 11:38 xDaunt wrote:
And let me offer this additional thought: that Trump's message better resonated with the middle class doesn't necessarily mean that his message was good. What it unequivocally means, however, is that the Democrats' message is bad.


Well he did lose by a considerable margin in the vote count. A tiny shift would have swung it the other way. I dunno if the Dems need a major change or just tweaks in how they target their messaging.


The fundamental problem I have with this perspective is that it resigns us to embracing that ~47% of people aren't participating in our democracy. If it weren't for third parties we'd probably already have a majority of Americans giving up on democracy.


When was the last time we had super high participation in elections? I mean it is pretty embarrassing and it just gets worse as you go down to state and local level.


Right? That's why I vehemently disagree with the mindset that looks at the last election and concludes that perhaps Democrats only need some messaging tweaks. I see you were saying you didn't know, but you should know they have much deeper problems. Not that Republicans don't show you can be a walking, talking, problem and still win (if you don't suck as bad as democrats).
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-26 07:49:40
June 26 2017 07:44 GMT
#158795
I think the trends in national participation vary a lot by state. I checked a few at random; very slightly more raw #s of people voted in 2016 than 2008 in CA and AL, slightly lower numbers in VT. Meanwhile NC numbers soared by 400K (from 4.3 million to 4.7 million) . State VAT (voting age turnout) isn't listed on wiki for '08 unfortunately but there was probably a small drop except in swing states. If you go by just raw national VAT 2016 was 55.5% down from 58.2% in 2008 and up from 54.9%. 1996 was the worst year ever.

Basically voting participation is bad and it's all Nixon's fault since 1968 was the last election with >60% voting age turnout. And parties are more aware that the electoral college system as it is means your presidential vote pretty much means nothing in a red or blue state.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
June 26 2017 13:10 GMT
#158796
If you look at the rise and fall of voter turn out, you can see that it spikes around the time of crisis and dips when times of prosperity. The 1990s were the peak baby boomer years, when that entire population was dumping productivity into the economy. Post WW2 had a pretty consistent 60% turn out rate, which alludes to a high level of civil engagement. But even that pales in comparison to the 1860 election, with its staggering 80% turn out(though the number of people eligible to vote was lower, and we were not on the 5 day work week).
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
convention
Profile Joined October 2011
United States622 Posts
June 26 2017 14:25 GMT
#158797
On June 26 2017 22:10 Plansix wrote:
If you look at the rise and fall of voter turn out, you can see that it spikes around the time of crisis and dips when times of prosperity. The 1990s were the peak baby boomer years, when that entire population was dumping productivity into the economy. Post WW2 had a pretty consistent 60% turn out rate, which alludes to a high level of civil engagement. But even that pales in comparison to the 1860 election, with its staggering 80% turn out(though the number of people eligible to vote was lower, and we were not on the 5 day work week).

I also wonder if it was just easier to vote then? Were elections on weekdays that aren't national holidays? Did people have to wait a couple hours at one of the few voting stations? It's pretty hard to excite people to vote when they have to take time off work to commute an appreciable distance to wait in line to cast a vote, where the single vote won't be a deciding vote anyway.

It's strange to blame people for not voting when the laws are designed to make it a challenge to vote.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
June 26 2017 14:35 GMT
#158798
No shocker here:
The mother of Philando Castile, a black motorist shot by a suburban Minneapolis police officer a year ago, agreed to a $2.995 million settlement with the city of St. Anthony, lawyers announced Monday.

Valerie Castile will be paid with insurance funds, and "no taxpayer monies" will be involved, according to a statement issued by the city and the family's lawyers.

Source.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-26 14:38:58
June 26 2017 14:36 GMT
#158799
On June 26 2017 23:25 convention wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2017 22:10 Plansix wrote:
If you look at the rise and fall of voter turn out, you can see that it spikes around the time of crisis and dips when times of prosperity. The 1990s were the peak baby boomer years, when that entire population was dumping productivity into the economy. Post WW2 had a pretty consistent 60% turn out rate, which alludes to a high level of civil engagement. But even that pales in comparison to the 1860 election, with its staggering 80% turn out(though the number of people eligible to vote was lower, and we were not on the 5 day work week).

I also wonder if it was just easier to vote then? Were elections on weekdays that aren't national holidays? Did people have to wait a couple hours at one of the few voting stations? It's pretty hard to excite people to vote when they have to take time off work to commute an appreciable distance to wait in line to cast a vote, where the single vote won't be a deciding vote anyway.

It's strange to blame people for not voting when the laws are designed to make it a challenge to vote.

We vote on first Tuesday in November in the US due to largely historical reasons. Back in the mid 1800s, it took a full days travel to vote. It did not interfere with the Sabbath, which was Saturday and Sunday and did not impact the mid week market. At the time, having the election during the Sabbath would make it so people did not vote(I still remember when you couldn’t buy a can opener on Sunday). Since then, we have never changed election day. The five day work week and weekends wouldn’t come until the early 1900s.

Each of the states are weirdly protective of the voting process as well. And by protective, I mean that they hate the federal government interfering in any way. Many of the states consider any interaction with the federal government to be an attempt to influence the outcome. States also fund the election process themselves. So holding an election on the weekend would cost more depending on the state laws.

Making it easier to vote has a lot of political implications, since there is an ongoing theory that Democrats benefit from higher turnout, while Republicans do not. That may not be true in every state. But it is more reliable to have a lower turn out of hard core voters than it is to have the entire state case their ballot and hope you won the majority of them over.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-26 14:51:03
June 26 2017 14:37 GMT
#158800
Also, it looks like Trump is going to score a win on the travel ban, with the Supreme Court allowing it to go into effect provisionally (pending reargument) against persons without a "bona fide relationship to the US."

EDIT: And it appears to be a per curiam opinion with no full liberal dissent. Interesting.

EDIT 2: Heh, looks like the Court wants to duck this one. They direct the parties to address the following issue in the next around of briefing: whether the challenges to the EO became moot on June 14, 2017.

EDIT 3: Looks like the language is narrower than initially reported:
In practical terms, this means that §2(c) may not be en-forced against foreign nationals who have a credible claim of a bona fide relationship with a person or entity in theUnited States. All other foreign nationals are subject to the provisions of EO–2.
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