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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On January 13 2014 08:45 ziggurat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 08:37 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 08:33 ziggurat wrote:On January 13 2014 07:34 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 07:18 ziggurat wrote:On January 13 2014 06:35 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 06:09 ziggurat wrote:
Is there any logical way to rule out the possibility that some god created the earth 6000 years ago and it was already old when he made it? Have any of you read that old Heinlein novel Stranger in a Strange Land? Not at all. Likewise you can't prove that magnets don't work because God wills it or any other thing. However what we basically have is a geological calendar that reads, for example, August 10th. If we flip back a few pages we can see May, April, January and so forth, all with appointments written in and checked off. We can see that as August 10th goes by appointments get done and the day gets checked off. The question comes down to "if you find this calendar should you conclude that it is at least 8 months and 10 days old or should you instead consider the possibility that it is 1 day old and was created with all the traits of something 8 months and 9 days older". If you accept the latter possibility then you're in for a world of possibilities including, but not limited to, "is this the Matrix?", "is this the Matrix sequel?", "what if it's like the Matrix but instead of robots it's aliens?" and "dude, when it comes down to it, how can you really like know anything?". On the other hand, given we can conclude we know how calendars work and we can see all the previous dates on the previous pages we can probably conclude it wasn't made yesterday. How can we really know anything. Exactly. Most of us just go on with our lives without worrying too much about big questions like this. But if person A believes that the universe was created by a big bang 14 billion years ago and person B believes it was created by God 6000 years ago -- and in point of fact neither one really knows -- then why is A smart and B a moron? There are many very smart, sophisticated religious people. I'm sure you're aware of this. If you've never met one, it probably says more about you than it does about them. Because A conforms with the observable evidence we know about the universe while B is just a thought experiment that amounts to armchair philosophers going "what if everyone else is just in my imagination, the only thing I know for sure is that I am". These are not two equally valid intellectual exercises. No. A and B both conform equally well to the observable evidence. What if you only think they both conform, what then?!? I'm going to keep doing that until you admit it's not a valid argument. I don't understand what you're asking but let me try explaining this a different way. We live in a world that appears to be millions of years old, in a universe that appears to be billions of years old. There are (at least) two hypotheses to explain this: A: It actually is what it appears to be B: It was made by God 6000 years ago, and when he made it he designed it to appear much older, as described in (some interpretations of) the bible I think you agree that we have no way of knowing which is true for sure. What I'm asking is, how do we even begin to choose between these two hypotheses? I don't see how the science can answer this question.
because there's more and better evidence for one thing than for the other...
On January 13 2014 08:52 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 08:45 ziggurat wrote:On January 13 2014 08:37 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 08:33 ziggurat wrote:On January 13 2014 07:34 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 07:18 ziggurat wrote:On January 13 2014 06:35 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 06:09 ziggurat wrote:
Is there any logical way to rule out the possibility that some god created the earth 6000 years ago and it was already old when he made it? Have any of you read that old Heinlein novel Stranger in a Strange Land? Not at all. Likewise you can't prove that magnets don't work because God wills it or any other thing. However what we basically have is a geological calendar that reads, for example, August 10th. If we flip back a few pages we can see May, April, January and so forth, all with appointments written in and checked off. We can see that as August 10th goes by appointments get done and the day gets checked off. The question comes down to "if you find this calendar should you conclude that it is at least 8 months and 10 days old or should you instead consider the possibility that it is 1 day old and was created with all the traits of something 8 months and 9 days older". If you accept the latter possibility then you're in for a world of possibilities including, but not limited to, "is this the Matrix?", "is this the Matrix sequel?", "what if it's like the Matrix but instead of robots it's aliens?" and "dude, when it comes down to it, how can you really like know anything?". On the other hand, given we can conclude we know how calendars work and we can see all the previous dates on the previous pages we can probably conclude it wasn't made yesterday. How can we really know anything. Exactly. Most of us just go on with our lives without worrying too much about big questions like this. But if person A believes that the universe was created by a big bang 14 billion years ago and person B believes it was created by God 6000 years ago -- and in point of fact neither one really knows -- then why is A smart and B a moron? There are many very smart, sophisticated religious people. I'm sure you're aware of this. If you've never met one, it probably says more about you than it does about them. Because A conforms with the observable evidence we know about the universe while B is just a thought experiment that amounts to armchair philosophers going "what if everyone else is just in my imagination, the only thing I know for sure is that I am". These are not two equally valid intellectual exercises. No. A and B both conform equally well to the observable evidence. What if you only think they both conform, what then?!? I'm going to keep doing that until you admit it's not a valid argument. I don't understand what you're asking but let me try explaining this a different way. We live in a world that appears to be millions of years old, in a universe that appears to be billions of years old. There are (at least) two hypotheses to explain this: A: It actually is what it appears to be B: It was made by God 6000 years ago, and when he made it he designed it to appear much older, as described in (some interpretations of) the bible I think you agree that we have no way of knowing which is true for sure. What I'm asking is, how do we even begin to choose between these two hypotheses? I don't see how the science can answer this question. And what I'm saying is why even bother talking about B when it's entirely possible I just think you're talking about B but you're not really real and you're in my imagination and even though you may yourself know you're real how can you possibly know we're really having this exchange and it's not all just a dream? ....
or that
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On January 13 2014 08:45 ziggurat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 08:37 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 08:33 ziggurat wrote:On January 13 2014 07:34 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 07:18 ziggurat wrote:On January 13 2014 06:35 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 06:09 ziggurat wrote:
Is there any logical way to rule out the possibility that some god created the earth 6000 years ago and it was already old when he made it? Have any of you read that old Heinlein novel Stranger in a Strange Land? Not at all. Likewise you can't prove that magnets don't work because God wills it or any other thing. However what we basically have is a geological calendar that reads, for example, August 10th. If we flip back a few pages we can see May, April, January and so forth, all with appointments written in and checked off. We can see that as August 10th goes by appointments get done and the day gets checked off. The question comes down to "if you find this calendar should you conclude that it is at least 8 months and 10 days old or should you instead consider the possibility that it is 1 day old and was created with all the traits of something 8 months and 9 days older". If you accept the latter possibility then you're in for a world of possibilities including, but not limited to, "is this the Matrix?", "is this the Matrix sequel?", "what if it's like the Matrix but instead of robots it's aliens?" and "dude, when it comes down to it, how can you really like know anything?". On the other hand, given we can conclude we know how calendars work and we can see all the previous dates on the previous pages we can probably conclude it wasn't made yesterday. How can we really know anything. Exactly. Most of us just go on with our lives without worrying too much about big questions like this. But if person A believes that the universe was created by a big bang 14 billion years ago and person B believes it was created by God 6000 years ago -- and in point of fact neither one really knows -- then why is A smart and B a moron? There are many very smart, sophisticated religious people. I'm sure you're aware of this. If you've never met one, it probably says more about you than it does about them. Because A conforms with the observable evidence we know about the universe while B is just a thought experiment that amounts to armchair philosophers going "what if everyone else is just in my imagination, the only thing I know for sure is that I am". These are not two equally valid intellectual exercises. No. A and B both conform equally well to the observable evidence. What if you only think they both conform, what then?!? I'm going to keep doing that until you admit it's not a valid argument. I don't understand what you're asking but let me try explaining this a different way. We live in a world that appears to be millions of years old, in a universe that appears to be billions of years old. There are (at least) two hypotheses to explain this: A: It actually is what it appears to be B: It was made by God 6000 years ago, and when he made it he designed it to appear much older, as described in (some interpretations of) the bible I think you agree that we have no way of knowing which is true for sure. What I'm asking is, how do we even begin to choose between these two hypotheses? I don't see how the science can answer this question.
What I think you're getting at is there's a difference between having an article of faith and making a persuasive case with compelling evidence. Everyone else is trying to tell you the difference is that scientists make persuasive cases while religion boils down to "because I say so", in a word, faith.
It seems like you're trying to say people can believe scientific conclusions based on faith and not on persuasion, which is true. But you don't want to walk down the "science is just another faith" line too far, because the advantage of science is changing your mind upon the appearance of new evidence. On the other side, I would also point out that most scientists don't have a dog in this fight. It's only atheists and anti-atheists who somehow think science and religion have to be enemies, if not diametrically opposed.
For your specific question, science doesn't "answer" the question definitively. It presents hypotheses based on the best available evidence. We have observed that particles decay at a certain, predictable rate, and we've extrapolated the age of the Earth from the decay of specific particles. Could it be the totally wrong way to look at it? Possibly. But come up with a better way and everyone will start using that instead. The problem with the religious belief in this case is that it brings the entire line of questioning and searching to a complete halt and doesn't bring up interesting questions for further discovery.
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On January 13 2014 08:45 ziggurat wrote:[...]
B: It was made by God 6000 years ago, and when he made it he designed it to appear much older, as described in (some interpretations of) the bible[...]
So dinosaurs didn't really exist but god placed their bones everywhere anyway 6000 years ago? I don't think that's very reasonable thing to believe because even if god existed he's probably not a fucking lunatic
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On January 13 2014 08:16 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 07:32 Introvert wrote:On January 13 2014 07:27 farvacola wrote:
Constitutional issues are partisan. They are now, yes. But this issue was not brought up because Obama is a democrat, but because of what he did. But it can be easy to get confused, because the democrats are really the party most willing to take a mallet to the Constitution. The only person confused is the one who thinks that partisan politics in constitutional issues is a new thing.
I mean this is something almost like the NSA (no, not in scope). The problem with what the NSA is doing is that it violates the 4th amendment. That's a constitutional issue, really started by a Republican and greatly enhanced by a Democrat. But both sides (for the most part) don't like it. This isn't DOMA, which very much was a partisan issue, as well as a Constitutional one.
In this way, screwing with the appointment clause is similar to the NSA. This should be an issue that everyone can agree on- no, the president does NOT have the power to declare the Senate in recess. Articles like this one miss that point.
edit: I should say that article doesn't ignore the Constitution, it just kind of blows it off as less important.
So I should have said "this should not be a partisan issue." It's not to me, I don't care if Bush tried it (he didn't), I would still oppose it.
Random edit:
So dinosaurs didn't really exist but god placed their bones everywhere anyway 6000 years ago? I don't think that's very reasonable thing to believe because even if god existed he's probably not a fucking lunatic
Indeed, certain philosophical ideas and theories about God would make it Necessarily/Categorically impossible for him to be a lunatic. (If he were the source of Logic). Just a random aside.
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On January 13 2014 08:52 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 08:45 ziggurat wrote:On January 13 2014 08:37 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 08:33 ziggurat wrote:On January 13 2014 07:34 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 07:18 ziggurat wrote:On January 13 2014 06:35 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 06:09 ziggurat wrote:
Is there any logical way to rule out the possibility that some god created the earth 6000 years ago and it was already old when he made it? Have any of you read that old Heinlein novel Stranger in a Strange Land? Not at all. Likewise you can't prove that magnets don't work because God wills it or any other thing. However what we basically have is a geological calendar that reads, for example, August 10th. If we flip back a few pages we can see May, April, January and so forth, all with appointments written in and checked off. We can see that as August 10th goes by appointments get done and the day gets checked off. The question comes down to "if you find this calendar should you conclude that it is at least 8 months and 10 days old or should you instead consider the possibility that it is 1 day old and was created with all the traits of something 8 months and 9 days older". If you accept the latter possibility then you're in for a world of possibilities including, but not limited to, "is this the Matrix?", "is this the Matrix sequel?", "what if it's like the Matrix but instead of robots it's aliens?" and "dude, when it comes down to it, how can you really like know anything?". On the other hand, given we can conclude we know how calendars work and we can see all the previous dates on the previous pages we can probably conclude it wasn't made yesterday. How can we really know anything. Exactly. Most of us just go on with our lives without worrying too much about big questions like this. But if person A believes that the universe was created by a big bang 14 billion years ago and person B believes it was created by God 6000 years ago -- and in point of fact neither one really knows -- then why is A smart and B a moron? There are many very smart, sophisticated religious people. I'm sure you're aware of this. If you've never met one, it probably says more about you than it does about them. Because A conforms with the observable evidence we know about the universe while B is just a thought experiment that amounts to armchair philosophers going "what if everyone else is just in my imagination, the only thing I know for sure is that I am". These are not two equally valid intellectual exercises. No. A and B both conform equally well to the observable evidence. What if you only think they both conform, what then?!? I'm going to keep doing that until you admit it's not a valid argument. I don't understand what you're asking but let me try explaining this a different way. We live in a world that appears to be millions of years old, in a universe that appears to be billions of years old. There are (at least) two hypotheses to explain this: A: It actually is what it appears to be B: It was made by God 6000 years ago, and when he made it he designed it to appear much older, as described in (some interpretations of) the bible I think you agree that we have no way of knowing which is true for sure. What I'm asking is, how do we even begin to choose between these two hypotheses? I don't see how the science can answer this question. And what I'm saying is why even bother talking about B when it's entirely possible I just think you're talking about B but you're not really real and you're in my imagination and even though you may yourself know you're real how can you possibly know we're really having this exchange and it's not all just a dream?
between zhou and the butterfly there must be a difference - this is called the transformation of things
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On January 13 2014 08:45 ziggurat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 08:37 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 08:33 ziggurat wrote:On January 13 2014 07:34 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 07:18 ziggurat wrote:On January 13 2014 06:35 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 06:09 ziggurat wrote:
Is there any logical way to rule out the possibility that some god created the earth 6000 years ago and it was already old when he made it? Have any of you read that old Heinlein novel Stranger in a Strange Land? Not at all. Likewise you can't prove that magnets don't work because God wills it or any other thing. However what we basically have is a geological calendar that reads, for example, August 10th. If we flip back a few pages we can see May, April, January and so forth, all with appointments written in and checked off. We can see that as August 10th goes by appointments get done and the day gets checked off. The question comes down to "if you find this calendar should you conclude that it is at least 8 months and 10 days old or should you instead consider the possibility that it is 1 day old and was created with all the traits of something 8 months and 9 days older". If you accept the latter possibility then you're in for a world of possibilities including, but not limited to, "is this the Matrix?", "is this the Matrix sequel?", "what if it's like the Matrix but instead of robots it's aliens?" and "dude, when it comes down to it, how can you really like know anything?". On the other hand, given we can conclude we know how calendars work and we can see all the previous dates on the previous pages we can probably conclude it wasn't made yesterday. How can we really know anything. Exactly. Most of us just go on with our lives without worrying too much about big questions like this. But if person A believes that the universe was created by a big bang 14 billion years ago and person B believes it was created by God 6000 years ago -- and in point of fact neither one really knows -- then why is A smart and B a moron? There are many very smart, sophisticated religious people. I'm sure you're aware of this. If you've never met one, it probably says more about you than it does about them. Because A conforms with the observable evidence we know about the universe while B is just a thought experiment that amounts to armchair philosophers going "what if everyone else is just in my imagination, the only thing I know for sure is that I am". These are not two equally valid intellectual exercises. No. A and B both conform equally well to the observable evidence. What if you only think they both conform, what then?!? I'm going to keep doing that until you admit it's not a valid argument. I don't understand what you're asking but let me try explaining this a different way. We live in a world that appears to be millions of years old, in a universe that appears to be billions of years old. There are (at least) two hypotheses to explain this: A: It actually is what it appears to be B: It was made by God 6000 years ago, and when he made it he designed it to appear much older, as described in (some interpretations of) the bible I think you agree that we have no way of knowing which is true for sure. What I'm asking is, how do we even begin to choose between these two hypotheses? I don't see how the science can answer this question.
Because if we accept B as actual possibility there is no way to know anything. Basically in case we admit B as real possibility we abdicate on being able to decide anything in the real world.
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On January 13 2014 08:52 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 08:45 ziggurat wrote:On January 13 2014 08:37 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 08:33 ziggurat wrote:On January 13 2014 07:34 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 07:18 ziggurat wrote:On January 13 2014 06:35 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 06:09 ziggurat wrote:
Is there any logical way to rule out the possibility that some god created the earth 6000 years ago and it was already old when he made it? Have any of you read that old Heinlein novel Stranger in a Strange Land? Not at all. Likewise you can't prove that magnets don't work because God wills it or any other thing. However what we basically have is a geological calendar that reads, for example, August 10th. If we flip back a few pages we can see May, April, January and so forth, all with appointments written in and checked off. We can see that as August 10th goes by appointments get done and the day gets checked off. The question comes down to "if you find this calendar should you conclude that it is at least 8 months and 10 days old or should you instead consider the possibility that it is 1 day old and was created with all the traits of something 8 months and 9 days older". If you accept the latter possibility then you're in for a world of possibilities including, but not limited to, "is this the Matrix?", "is this the Matrix sequel?", "what if it's like the Matrix but instead of robots it's aliens?" and "dude, when it comes down to it, how can you really like know anything?". On the other hand, given we can conclude we know how calendars work and we can see all the previous dates on the previous pages we can probably conclude it wasn't made yesterday. How can we really know anything. Exactly. Most of us just go on with our lives without worrying too much about big questions like this. But if person A believes that the universe was created by a big bang 14 billion years ago and person B believes it was created by God 6000 years ago -- and in point of fact neither one really knows -- then why is A smart and B a moron? There are many very smart, sophisticated religious people. I'm sure you're aware of this. If you've never met one, it probably says more about you than it does about them. Because A conforms with the observable evidence we know about the universe while B is just a thought experiment that amounts to armchair philosophers going "what if everyone else is just in my imagination, the only thing I know for sure is that I am". These are not two equally valid intellectual exercises. No. A and B both conform equally well to the observable evidence. What if you only think they both conform, what then?!? I'm going to keep doing that until you admit it's not a valid argument. I don't understand what you're asking but let me try explaining this a different way. We live in a world that appears to be millions of years old, in a universe that appears to be billions of years old. There are (at least) two hypotheses to explain this: A: It actually is what it appears to be B: It was made by God 6000 years ago, and when he made it he designed it to appear much older, as described in (some interpretations of) the bible I think you agree that we have no way of knowing which is true for sure. What I'm asking is, how do we even begin to choose between these two hypotheses? I don't see how the science can answer this question. And what I'm saying is why even bother talking about B when it's entirely possible I just think you're talking about B but you're not really real and you're in my imagination and even though you may yourself know you're real how can you possibly know we're really having this exchange and it's not all just a dream? The B argument is intellectually worthless. Save it for late nights when you're high and saying shit like "How do you know you see the same colour as red that I do? What if your red is my yellow!?!? What then!?!?". It's a dead end that wastes the time of everyone involved and gives the lazy or stupid the ability to ignore doing any actual thinking in favour of nonsense they think is clever. But what if I'm not really making this argument?!?! What if it's all in your head and this is your brain trying to tell you you're being dumb!?!?? What then!?!??! As you can see, B is really fucking dumb.
Well, talking about this stuff is largely what philosophy is all about. It doesn't really matter for our day to day lives whether it's A or B or something else. But if you start talking about what the real nature of the universe is then you're going to end up talking about these deep questions.
You seem a bit upset and I don't want to upset you further. (Or maybe this is just how you talk!) Anyway I would encourage you to be a bit more open-minded and try to understand the way other people think, even if they are very different from you. It won't give you the smug satisfaction of being able to call half the world's population lazy, stupid, or "fucking dumb" -- but you might get something out of it nonetheless.
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There are over a half-dozen creation stories in the Bible. All are allegorical. Two appear sequentially in the beginning of Genesis.
Seriously, if you've never read it, do. The first two chapters are between a page and four depending on your font size.
Gen 1 tells a story of a creation by speech, over the water, with man and woman created simultaneously, both "in the image of God," subsequent to the animals and as the culminating act of creation.
Gen 2 tells a story of a creation by hand, out of the mud, in a desert, with man created before animals, with woman arriving as the culminating act of creation.
Just saying.
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United States44449 Posts
On January 13 2014 10:50 ziggurat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 08:52 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 08:45 ziggurat wrote:On January 13 2014 08:37 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 08:33 ziggurat wrote:On January 13 2014 07:34 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 07:18 ziggurat wrote:On January 13 2014 06:35 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 06:09 ziggurat wrote:
Is there any logical way to rule out the possibility that some god created the earth 6000 years ago and it was already old when he made it? Have any of you read that old Heinlein novel Stranger in a Strange Land? Not at all. Likewise you can't prove that magnets don't work because God wills it or any other thing. However what we basically have is a geological calendar that reads, for example, August 10th. If we flip back a few pages we can see May, April, January and so forth, all with appointments written in and checked off. We can see that as August 10th goes by appointments get done and the day gets checked off. The question comes down to "if you find this calendar should you conclude that it is at least 8 months and 10 days old or should you instead consider the possibility that it is 1 day old and was created with all the traits of something 8 months and 9 days older". If you accept the latter possibility then you're in for a world of possibilities including, but not limited to, "is this the Matrix?", "is this the Matrix sequel?", "what if it's like the Matrix but instead of robots it's aliens?" and "dude, when it comes down to it, how can you really like know anything?". On the other hand, given we can conclude we know how calendars work and we can see all the previous dates on the previous pages we can probably conclude it wasn't made yesterday. How can we really know anything. Exactly. Most of us just go on with our lives without worrying too much about big questions like this. But if person A believes that the universe was created by a big bang 14 billion years ago and person B believes it was created by God 6000 years ago -- and in point of fact neither one really knows -- then why is A smart and B a moron? There are many very smart, sophisticated religious people. I'm sure you're aware of this. If you've never met one, it probably says more about you than it does about them. Because A conforms with the observable evidence we know about the universe while B is just a thought experiment that amounts to armchair philosophers going "what if everyone else is just in my imagination, the only thing I know for sure is that I am". These are not two equally valid intellectual exercises. No. A and B both conform equally well to the observable evidence. What if you only think they both conform, what then?!? I'm going to keep doing that until you admit it's not a valid argument. I don't understand what you're asking but let me try explaining this a different way. We live in a world that appears to be millions of years old, in a universe that appears to be billions of years old. There are (at least) two hypotheses to explain this: A: It actually is what it appears to be B: It was made by God 6000 years ago, and when he made it he designed it to appear much older, as described in (some interpretations of) the bible I think you agree that we have no way of knowing which is true for sure. What I'm asking is, how do we even begin to choose between these two hypotheses? I don't see how the science can answer this question. And what I'm saying is why even bother talking about B when it's entirely possible I just think you're talking about B but you're not really real and you're in my imagination and even though you may yourself know you're real how can you possibly know we're really having this exchange and it's not all just a dream? The B argument is intellectually worthless. Save it for late nights when you're high and saying shit like "How do you know you see the same colour as red that I do? What if your red is my yellow!?!? What then!?!?". It's a dead end that wastes the time of everyone involved and gives the lazy or stupid the ability to ignore doing any actual thinking in favour of nonsense they think is clever. But what if I'm not really making this argument?!?! What if it's all in your head and this is your brain trying to tell you you're being dumb!?!?? What then!?!??! As you can see, B is really fucking dumb. Well, talking about this stuff is largely what philosophy is all about. It doesn't really matter for our day to day lives whether it's A or B or something else. But if you start talking about what the real nature of the universe is then you're going to end up talking about these deep questions. You seem a bit upset and I don't want to upset you further. (Or maybe this is just how you talk!) Anyway I would encourage you to be a bit more open-minded and try to understand the way other people think, even if they are very different from you. It won't give you the smug satisfaction of being able to call half the world's population lazy, stupid, or "fucking dumb" -- but you might get something out of it nonetheless.
What if you're not really posting that but just think you are, what then?!?!
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On January 13 2014 10:50 ziggurat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 08:52 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 08:45 ziggurat wrote:On January 13 2014 08:37 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 08:33 ziggurat wrote:On January 13 2014 07:34 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 07:18 ziggurat wrote:On January 13 2014 06:35 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 06:09 ziggurat wrote:
Is there any logical way to rule out the possibility that some god created the earth 6000 years ago and it was already old when he made it? Have any of you read that old Heinlein novel Stranger in a Strange Land? Not at all. Likewise you can't prove that magnets don't work because God wills it or any other thing. However what we basically have is a geological calendar that reads, for example, August 10th. If we flip back a few pages we can see May, April, January and so forth, all with appointments written in and checked off. We can see that as August 10th goes by appointments get done and the day gets checked off. The question comes down to "if you find this calendar should you conclude that it is at least 8 months and 10 days old or should you instead consider the possibility that it is 1 day old and was created with all the traits of something 8 months and 9 days older". If you accept the latter possibility then you're in for a world of possibilities including, but not limited to, "is this the Matrix?", "is this the Matrix sequel?", "what if it's like the Matrix but instead of robots it's aliens?" and "dude, when it comes down to it, how can you really like know anything?". On the other hand, given we can conclude we know how calendars work and we can see all the previous dates on the previous pages we can probably conclude it wasn't made yesterday. How can we really know anything. Exactly. Most of us just go on with our lives without worrying too much about big questions like this. But if person A believes that the universe was created by a big bang 14 billion years ago and person B believes it was created by God 6000 years ago -- and in point of fact neither one really knows -- then why is A smart and B a moron? There are many very smart, sophisticated religious people. I'm sure you're aware of this. If you've never met one, it probably says more about you than it does about them. Because A conforms with the observable evidence we know about the universe while B is just a thought experiment that amounts to armchair philosophers going "what if everyone else is just in my imagination, the only thing I know for sure is that I am". These are not two equally valid intellectual exercises. No. A and B both conform equally well to the observable evidence. What if you only think they both conform, what then?!? I'm going to keep doing that until you admit it's not a valid argument. I don't understand what you're asking but let me try explaining this a different way. We live in a world that appears to be millions of years old, in a universe that appears to be billions of years old. There are (at least) two hypotheses to explain this: A: It actually is what it appears to be B: It was made by God 6000 years ago, and when he made it he designed it to appear much older, as described in (some interpretations of) the bible I think you agree that we have no way of knowing which is true for sure. What I'm asking is, how do we even begin to choose between these two hypotheses? I don't see how the science can answer this question. And what I'm saying is why even bother talking about B when it's entirely possible I just think you're talking about B but you're not really real and you're in my imagination and even though you may yourself know you're real how can you possibly know we're really having this exchange and it's not all just a dream? The B argument is intellectually worthless. Save it for late nights when you're high and saying shit like "How do you know you see the same colour as red that I do? What if your red is my yellow!?!? What then!?!?". It's a dead end that wastes the time of everyone involved and gives the lazy or stupid the ability to ignore doing any actual thinking in favour of nonsense they think is clever. But what if I'm not really making this argument?!?! What if it's all in your head and this is your brain trying to tell you you're being dumb!?!?? What then!?!??! As you can see, B is really fucking dumb. Well, talking about this stuff is largely what philosophy is all about. It doesn't really matter for our day to day lives whether it's A or B or something else. But if you start talking about what the real nature of the universe is then you're going to end up talking about these deep questions. You seem a bit upset and I don't want to upset you further. (Or maybe this is just how you talk!) Anyway I would encourage you to be a bit more open-minded and try to understand the way other people think, even if they are very different from you. It won't give you the smug satisfaction of being able to call half the world's population lazy, stupid, or "fucking dumb" -- but you might get something out of it nonetheless.
Everyone is wrong. The earth was created two minutes and three seconds ago, including you and your God-implanted memories. That's the real point of Inception.
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United States41117 Posts
State officials and the company that owns the tank that has leaked thousands of gallons of hazardous chemicals into the drinking water of 300,000 West Virginians should have known that there was the potential for an incident.
The Charleston Gazette's Ken Ward Jr. reports that Freedom Industries, the company that owns the leaking tanks, told state officials nearly a year ago that it was keeping thousands of pounds of 4-methylcyclohexane methanol in the company's storage facility about a mile and a half up the Elk River from where West Virginia American Water draws supplies for thousands in the Charleston area. The chemical is used to wash coal after it is mined from the ground.
The disclosure was included in paperwork that Freedom Industries had filed under the federal Emergency Planning and Community Right to Know Act, a 1986 law that is meant ensure that the public and first responders are adequately informed in the case of an accident, and that there is a plan to deal with it, such as alerts and evacuations.
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United States41117 Posts
PRINCETON, NJ -- Forty-two percent of Americans, on average, identified as political independents in 2013, the highest Gallup has measured since it began conducting interviews by telephone 25 years ago. Meanwhile, Republican identification fell to 25%, the lowest over that time span. At 31%, Democratic identification is unchanged from the last four years but down from 36% in 2008. ![[image loading]](http://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/5_2jqzaulusmlps9-fmska.png) The results are based on more than 18,000 interviews with Americans from 13 separate Gallup multiple-day polls conducted in 2013. In each of the last three years, at least 40% of Americans have identified as independents. These are also the only years in Gallup's records that the percentage of independents has reached that level.
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I feel like people who claim they are independents are just hipsters who don't want to be categorized...
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On January 13 2014 13:24 Livelovedie wrote:
I feel like people who claim they are independents are just hipsters who don't want to be categorized...
Or are tea party people who are "too cool for establishment" policies or bothering to "make ideas work in elections".
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or that they're dissatisfied with both parties...
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It is an interesting cultural difference. Here there is basically no way to even say equivalent of "X is a republican/democrat/..." unless he is actual member of the party and very few people are. The only phrase used is "X votes for Y" and even that is basically inapplicable for a lot of people as they vote different party every election (often parties that did not exist in last elections  ). To me it is rather alien concept of people being associated with a party.
EDIT: Seems to me like some kind of strange tribalism.
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On January 13 2014 14:16 mcc wrote:It is an interesting cultural difference. Here there is basically no way to even say equivalent of "X is a republican/democrat/..." unless he is actual member of the party and very few people are. The only phrase used is "X votes for Y" and even that is basically inapplicable for a lot of people as they vote different party every election (often parties that did not exist in last elections ). To me it is rather alien concept of people being associated with a party. EDIT: Seems to me like some kind of strange tribalism.
because we are all manichees - everything for us must be arranged as a cosmic battle between polarities, otherwise we cannot understand it
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It's probably more a semantic thing than anything else, due to the two party system. I'm a Rep/Dem just seems to be a synonym for I'm left/right.
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On January 13 2014 14:37 Nyxisto wrote:
It's probably more a semantic thing than anything else, due to the two party system. I'm a Rep/Dem just seems to be a synonym for I'm left/right.
they're both very right wing
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On January 13 2014 14:40 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 14:37 Nyxisto wrote:
It's probably more a semantic thing than anything else, due to the two party system. I'm a Rep/Dem just seems to be a synonym for I'm left/right. they're both very right wing
What a silly thing to say.
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EPT
