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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 7629

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
May 24 2017 21:24 GMT
#152561
-.-

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11528 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-24 21:27:25
May 24 2017 21:26 GMT
#152562
On May 25 2017 04:18 Trainrunnef wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2017 04:09 Wulfey_LA wrote:
On May 25 2017 03:47 KwarK wrote:
On May 25 2017 03:35 Wulfey_LA wrote:
In countries where you have a VAT the middle class pays more. USA ends up having a relatively more progressive tax scheme compared to VAT-European countries because we don't tax the middle class as much as they do. If the USA rolled its state sales taxes into a VAT with state based add ons, then the federal government would have a finer tuning knob to gather the funding necessary to move so much money (insurance premiums) onto the federal books. Because of the tuning knobs congress has (payroll taxes, capital gains, income taxes), any raises really hit high W2 earners hard but tend to not lay into the 75k bracket that much.

What the hell are you talking about? Payroll taxes are regressive/flat taxes. In the US you pay 15.3% flat tax on all earnings up to $118,500 then 2.9% on everything over that. And as for capital gains. 75k income folks make most their money from earned income, they pay income taxes. 1000k income folks make most their money from capital gains, they pay a flat 20%.

This whole idea that Europe taxes the middle classes to death while the US leaves them alone is silly. The difference is in the presentation.


It is damnably hard for me to find composite data of both state/local and federal rammed together. From what I have reviewed, state/local end up being regressive. But federal taxes are strongly progressive in the USA. My point is that if the state and local were rolled into a VAT you could put more taxation on the middle class to fund strong redistribution like they do in EU and the anglosphere.

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_United_States

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

https://itep.org/wp-content/uploads/whopaysreport.pdf



As Kwark pointed out in one of his previous posts that doesn't tell the whole story as the source of the income for the upper percentiles progressively skews away from income into capital gains so the actual taxes collected do not exactly match the stated tax rates on those graphs.


But that isn't even really relevant to the question of whether you could afford single payer. You already pay more in government money than most countries who have single payer. On top of that, you also pay shitloads of private money. And for all of that, you get worse care.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2015/oct/us-health-care-from-a-global-perspective

I recommend taking a look at some of the graphs in that article. Some choice excerpts (The other data doesn't look better):

Public spending on health care amounted to $4,197 per capita in the U.S. in 2013, more than in any other country except Norway ($4,981) and the Netherlands ($4,495), despite the fact that the U.S. was the only country studied that did not have a universal health care system.


Data from the OECD show that the U.S. spent 17.1 percent of its gross domestic product (GDP) on health care in 2013. This was almost 50 percent more than the next-highest spender (France, 11.6% of GDP) and almost double what was spent in the U.K. (8.8%).

Jockmcplop
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom9661 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-24 21:33:47
May 24 2017 21:29 GMT
#152563
UK investigators have reacted with anger after a US newspaper published photos apparently showing the scene of the Manchester bomb attack.
Senior counter terrorism policing figures said the leak undermined their investigation and the confidence of victims and witnesses.
Earlier the UK home secretary said she was irritated with the US for releasing information about bomber Salman Abedi.
Amber Rudd said she had told Washington "it should not happen again".


This is what happens when you share intelligence with a totally incompetent bunch of fools. Is anyone going to stick up for your idiotic officials on this? Twice in one day, the second time having already been warned only HOURS before not to do it again.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40038630

Intelligence sharing is important for everyone and whoever is responsible for this is risking making the world a more dangerous place for everyone and playing right into the hands of the terrorists. Bet they got paid ok for the photos though.
RIP Meatloaf <3
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-24 21:29:58
May 24 2017 21:29 GMT
#152564
In other news, no surprise, the Admiralty is rightfully pissed.

Pentagon officials are in shock after the release of a transcript between President Donald Trump and his Philippines counterpart reveals that the US military had moved two nuclear submarines towards North Korea

“We never talk about subs!” three officials told BuzzFeed News, referring to the military's belief that keeping submarines' movement stealth is key to their mission.

While the US military will frequently announce the deployment of aircraft carriers, it is far more careful when discussing the movement of nuclear submarines. Carriers are hard to miss, and that in part, is a reason the US military deploys them. They are a physical show of forces. Submarines are, at times, a furtive complement to the carriers, a hard-to-detect means of strategic deterrence.

According to a transcript of the call, released Wednesday, Trump called Philippines President Rodrigo Duterte April 29 to discuss, in part, the rising threat from North Korea. During that call, while discussing ways to mitigate North Korean leader Kim Jong Un’s nuclear ambitions, Trump said: “We have two submarines – the best in the world – we have two nuclear submarines – not that we want to use them at all. I’ve never seen anything like they are but we don’t have to use this but [Kim] could be crazy so we will see what happens.”

During the same call, Trump also called the North Korea leader a “madman with nuclear weapons” and celebrated Duterte for doing an “unbelievable job on the drug problem,” even as the Filipino leader has supported the alleged extrajudicial killing of 8,000 people since taking office in June, part of his purge to rid his nation of drugs. Duterte has bragged about committing murder himself, called former President Barack Obama a “son of a bitch” and once threatened to suspend the bilateral agreement between his nation and the United States that allows US troops to visit the Philippines.

“Keep up [the] good work, you are doing an amazing job,” Trump told Duterte during the call.

A US official who had previously seen a version of the transcript confirmed to BuzzFeed News that the published version appeared accurate.

By announcing the presence of nuclear submarines, the president, some Pentagon officials privately explained, gives away the element of surprise — an irony given his repeated declarations during the campaign that the US announces far too many of its military plans when it comes to combatting ISIS.

Moreover, some countries in the region, particularly China, seek to develop their anti-sub capability. Knowing that two US submarines are in the region could allow them to test their own military capabilities.

Finally, it is unclear why Duterte would need to know the specific number of subs in the region. The Philippines is not a part US military efforts to deter North Korea so why would Duterte need to know such details?

In the past, the US Navy has acknowledged that nuclear submarines were part of a deploying strike group. By doing so, the public knows the general deployment schedule regional destination. But saying that submarines are in the region is not the same as saying how many there are and that they are near North Korea, as Trump did during the phone call. Strikes groups don’t stick together and sail as one big unit but can break off as needed.

The military also has announced roughly 48 hours beforehand when a nuclear submarine deployment is returning home, in part, to notify families.

The reason behind the April 29 call is unclear. It began with Trump congratulating Duterte on his approach to tackling illicit drugs in the Philippines before discussing the emerging North Korean threat. It ended with Trump repeatedly urging Duterte to visit him in Washington.

“If you want to come to the Oval Office, I will love to have you in [the] Oval Office. Anytime you want to come,” Trump said, according to the transcript, later adding: “Work it out with your staff. Seriously, if you want to come over, just let us know.”


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-24 21:44:58
May 24 2017 21:40 GMT
#152565
i'll defer to the CBO's expertise, but i did notice that they weren't able to account for the macro economics of the AHCA given the tight timeframe - my sense is that given the instability in the individual markets and the wholly inadequate "stabilization fund", we will likely see a death spiral.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18829 Posts
May 24 2017 21:43 GMT
#152566
A death spiral is all but guaranteed with the GOP plan.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
May 24 2017 21:44 GMT
#152567
yes, i am just confused why the CBO analysis doesn't mention it at all.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
May 24 2017 21:44 GMT
#152568
yep
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
May 24 2017 21:47 GMT
#152569
I wish there were a single story I could point and be like "yeah, but it's not all bad!"

...
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42816 Posts
May 24 2017 21:48 GMT
#152570
On May 25 2017 06:47 NewSunshine wrote:
I wish there were a single story I could point and be like "yeah, but it's not all bad!"

...

Think of all the jobs the job creators will create with all that extra money.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 24 2017 21:49 GMT
#152571
On May 25 2017 06:29 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
In other news, no surprise, the Admiralty is rightfully pissed.

Show nested quote +
Pentagon officials are in shock after the release of a transcript between President Donald Trump and his Philippines counterpart reveals that the US military had moved two nuclear submarines towards North Korea

“We never talk about subs!” three officials told BuzzFeed News, referring to the military's belief that keeping submarines' movement stealth is key to their mission.

While the US military will frequently announce the deployment of aircraft carriers, it is far more careful when discussing the movement of nuclear submarines. Carriers are hard to miss, and that in part, is a reason the US military deploys them. They are a physical show of forces. Submarines are, at times, a furtive complement to the carriers, a hard-to-detect means of strategic deterrence.

According to a transcript of the call, released Wednesday, Trump called Philippines President Rodrigo Duterte April 29 to discuss, in part, the rising threat from North Korea. During that call, while discussing ways to mitigate North Korean leader Kim Jong Un’s nuclear ambitions, Trump said: “We have two submarines – the best in the world – we have two nuclear submarines – not that we want to use them at all. I’ve never seen anything like they are but we don’t have to use this but [Kim] could be crazy so we will see what happens.”

During the same call, Trump also called the North Korea leader a “madman with nuclear weapons” and celebrated Duterte for doing an “unbelievable job on the drug problem,” even as the Filipino leader has supported the alleged extrajudicial killing of 8,000 people since taking office in June, part of his purge to rid his nation of drugs. Duterte has bragged about committing murder himself, called former President Barack Obama a “son of a bitch” and once threatened to suspend the bilateral agreement between his nation and the United States that allows US troops to visit the Philippines.

“Keep up [the] good work, you are doing an amazing job,” Trump told Duterte during the call.

A US official who had previously seen a version of the transcript confirmed to BuzzFeed News that the published version appeared accurate.

By announcing the presence of nuclear submarines, the president, some Pentagon officials privately explained, gives away the element of surprise — an irony given his repeated declarations during the campaign that the US announces far too many of its military plans when it comes to combatting ISIS.

Moreover, some countries in the region, particularly China, seek to develop their anti-sub capability. Knowing that two US submarines are in the region could allow them to test their own military capabilities.

Finally, it is unclear why Duterte would need to know the specific number of subs in the region. The Philippines is not a part US military efforts to deter North Korea so why would Duterte need to know such details?

In the past, the US Navy has acknowledged that nuclear submarines were part of a deploying strike group. By doing so, the public knows the general deployment schedule regional destination. But saying that submarines are in the region is not the same as saying how many there are and that they are near North Korea, as Trump did during the phone call. Strikes groups don’t stick together and sail as one big unit but can break off as needed.

The military also has announced roughly 48 hours beforehand when a nuclear submarine deployment is returning home, in part, to notify families.

The reason behind the April 29 call is unclear. It began with Trump congratulating Duterte on his approach to tackling illicit drugs in the Philippines before discussing the emerging North Korean threat. It ended with Trump repeatedly urging Duterte to visit him in Washington.

“If you want to come to the Oval Office, I will love to have you in [the] Oval Office. Anytime you want to come,” Trump said, according to the transcript, later adding: “Work it out with your staff. Seriously, if you want to come over, just let us know.”


Source

Trump is allowed to do that. It isn't a big deal, we already knew the sub was there. Totally fine and a fake story by the left.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23255 Posts
May 24 2017 21:50 GMT
#152572
On May 25 2017 06:48 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2017 06:47 NewSunshine wrote:
I wish there were a single story I could point and be like "yeah, but it's not all bad!"

...

Think of all the jobs the job creators will create with all that extra money.


Lot's more jobs for the security to fight off the mobs and protect their unconscionable wealth.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15690 Posts
May 24 2017 21:52 GMT
#152573
On May 25 2017 06:23 Wulfey_LA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2017 06:12 Mohdoo wrote:
On May 25 2017 06:08 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:


The GOP needs old people. Why would they do this? I don't think the GOP is actually as stupid as this makes them look. I want to understand!!


Think of the broader Right as two entities.

(1) The Republican party. These guys serve the donor class first and foremost. Capital gains tax cuts, social security/medicare/medicaid cuts, top 1% tax cuts, estate tax cuts, targeted financial deregulation, and a business stacked judiciary are the actual policy goals that happen. Remember Paul Ryan trying to privatize social security in 2006? Check out the Trump budget, stacked with all kinds of capital side tax cuts and social welfare spending cuts in the teeth of Trump's claims not to touch social security, medicare, and medicaid.

(2) The Entertainment wing. Trump, Hannity, O'Reilly, Crowder, Breitbart, lesser FOX hosts, all them dedicate every day to assaulting the evils of pluralism. Wall, Muslim Ban, Affirmative action, Immigration, Terrorism, racial panic, welfare queens, obamaphones, phony Dem scandals. All this crap is just prolofeed rubbish fed to get gullible idiots to vote R. None of these policies actually go anywhere because they aren't real policies.


This is so sadly accurate
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
May 24 2017 21:53 GMT
#152574
The subs don't have to be in the area for the other side to try and find a signature of the subs in the area. Someone is always listening or searching. Prime example, majority of the crew on Subs are never told where they are going or where they are.

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
May 24 2017 21:54 GMT
#152575
On May 25 2017 06:48 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2017 06:47 NewSunshine wrote:
I wish there were a single story I could point and be like "yeah, but it's not all bad!"

...

Think of all the jobs the job creators will create with all that extra money.

If that's where the money actually goes, anyway. The trickle-down rock is tiny, and not a very nice place to live.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-24 22:03:53
May 24 2017 22:03 GMT
#152576
Remember what I said earlier about idiocy and misinformation when it comes to why universal health care wasn't more widely supported? You're seeing it in spades from the republicans pushing this healthcare bill. They jumped the shark as soon as they decided that they wanted private insurance and coverage for preexisting conditions.
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
May 24 2017 22:03 GMT
#152577
The location of nuclear subs (tho there is confusion on if he means nuclear powered or armed.. if the latter then just lol) is highly classified information and anybody else saying this to a foreign government, especially one with ties to China, would likely be court marshalled or jailed, depending on military status. OPSEC is a thing people.

Also, the new plan is even worse. It saves less money for a negligible change in the number of those who lose coverage. It should appeal to not a single reasonable person.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
May 24 2017 22:03 GMT
#152578
Russian officials bragged in conversations during the presidential campaign that they had cultivated a strong relationship with former Trump adviser retired Gen. Michael Flynn and believed they could use him to influence Donald Trump and his team, sources told CNN.

The conversations deeply concerned US intelligence officials, some of whom acted on their own to limit how much sensitive information they shared with Flynn, who was tapped to become Trump's national security adviser, current and former governments officials said.

"This was a five-alarm fire from early on," one former Obama administration official said, "the way the Russians were talking about him." Another former administration official said Flynn was viewed as a potential national security problem.


www.cnn.com
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
May 24 2017 22:04 GMT
#152579
American spies collected information last summer revealing that senior Russian intelligence and political officials were discussing how to exert influence over Donald J. Trump through his advisers, according to three current and former American officials familiar with the intelligence.

The conversations focused on Paul Manafort, the Trump campaign chairman at the time, and Michael T. Flynn, a retired general who was advising Mr. Trump, the officials said. Both men had indirect ties to Russian officials, who appeared confident that each could be used to help shape Mr. Trump’s opinions on Russia.

Some Russians boasted about how well they knew Mr. Flynn. Others discussed leveraging their ties to Viktor F. Yanukovych, the deposed president of Ukraine living in exile in Russia, who at one time had worked closely with Mr. Manafort.


www.nytimes.com
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-24 22:06:20
May 24 2017 22:05 GMT
#152580
Washington (CNN)Attorney General Jeff Sessions did not disclose meetings he had last year with Russian officials when he applied for his security clearance, the Justice Department told CNN Wednesday.

Sessions, who met with Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak at least two times last year, didn't note those interactions on the form, which requires him to list "any contact" he or his family had with a "foreign government" or its "representatives" over the past seven years, officials said.
The new information from the Justice Department is the latest example of Sessions failing to disclose contacts he had with Russian officials. He has come under withering criticism from Democrats following revelations that he did not disclose the same contacts with Kislyak during his Senate confirmation hearings earlier this year.
Sessions initially listed a year's worth of meetings with foreign officials on the security clearance form, according to Justice Department spokeswoman Sarah Isgur Flores. But she says he and his staff were then told by an FBI employee who assisted in filling out the form, known as the SF-86, that he didn't need to list dozens of meetings with foreign ambassadors that happened in his capacity as a senator.

A legal expert who regularly assists officials in filling out the form disagrees with the Justice Department's explanation, suggesting that Sessions should have disclosed the meetings.
"My interpretation is that a member of Congress would still have to reveal the appropriate foreign government contacts notwithstanding it was on official business," said Mark Zaid, a Washington attorney who specializes in national security law.
Zaid added that in a similar circumstance he advised a member of Congress to list all foreign contacts -- including those made during official US government business.
To obtain a security clearance, a federal official is not required to list the meetings if they were part of a foreign conference he or she attended while conducting government business. Sessions' meetings, however, do not appear to be tied to foreign conferences.


http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/24/politics/jeff-sessions-russian-officials-meetings/index.html?adkey=bn
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
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