|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On May 25 2017 02:31 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2017 02:23 xDaunt wrote:On May 25 2017 01:38 Plansix wrote:On May 25 2017 01:23 xDaunt wrote:On May 25 2017 01:19 Plansix wrote:On May 25 2017 01:16 xDaunt wrote:On May 25 2017 01:10 Biff The Understudy wrote:
That's such a douchy comment to make. The country is made of people, he is a citizen, so it's partly about him, and about the countless people who are in his situation.
Ever heard of empathy, or don't you give a fuck about anything that doesn't happen to you? I mean would it be just "personal" if you were in his situation? Empathy has nothing to do with it. Proper governance isn't about righting individual wrongs and injustices. It's about creating a policy that applies to the whole. There will always be people at the margin who get the short end of the stick when a policy is implemented. Healthcare is no different. Like everything else, it is a finite resource. And just because my observation is douchey doesn't mean that it is incorrect. No, just the overwhelming evidence that our healthcare system is a for-profit capitalist nightmare that was bankrupting Americans and slowly destroying our economy. And the entire group of functional of smaller nations, including Canada, that can support have functional heathcare systems that work. As always, it is the evidence that makes you wrong. The doucheyness speaks for itself. This is where I remind everyone that I'm in favor of baseline single payer healthcare. You're basically proving my larger point: so many of y'all on the left have worked yourselves up into such a frenzy that you can no longer see straight on these political issues. You may say you support single payer, but you voting record shows you value other things far more. This is the problem conservatives like yourself have. You want to political results that will result in harsh negative effects on people's lives, but then expect this real rational debate it after wining. Which is in sharp contrast to the emotion based rhetoric that win Trump this election. Unlike some of y'all on the left, I don't demand strict orthodoxy from politicians whom I support. Do you mind me asking what that means? No specifics, general terms are sufficient.
It means that I don't demand that politicians whom I support adhere to every position that I do. In my opinion, far more orthodoxy is demanded from the Left than the Right, but the Right is certainly guilty of it as well on certain issues. I find the charge that I only give lip service to supporting single payer health care by voting republican particularly retarded given that the democrats don't even openly support it. Talk about flagrant hypocrisy.
|
On May 25 2017 02:59 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2017 02:31 Artisreal wrote:On May 25 2017 02:23 xDaunt wrote:On May 25 2017 01:38 Plansix wrote:On May 25 2017 01:23 xDaunt wrote:On May 25 2017 01:19 Plansix wrote:On May 25 2017 01:16 xDaunt wrote:On May 25 2017 01:10 Biff The Understudy wrote:
That's such a douchy comment to make. The country is made of people, he is a citizen, so it's partly about him, and about the countless people who are in his situation.
Ever heard of empathy, or don't you give a fuck about anything that doesn't happen to you? I mean would it be just "personal" if you were in his situation? Empathy has nothing to do with it. Proper governance isn't about righting individual wrongs and injustices. It's about creating a policy that applies to the whole. There will always be people at the margin who get the short end of the stick when a policy is implemented. Healthcare is no different. Like everything else, it is a finite resource. And just because my observation is douchey doesn't mean that it is incorrect. No, just the overwhelming evidence that our healthcare system is a for-profit capitalist nightmare that was bankrupting Americans and slowly destroying our economy. And the entire group of functional of smaller nations, including Canada, that can support have functional heathcare systems that work. As always, it is the evidence that makes you wrong. The doucheyness speaks for itself. This is where I remind everyone that I'm in favor of baseline single payer healthcare. You're basically proving my larger point: so many of y'all on the left have worked yourselves up into such a frenzy that you can no longer see straight on these political issues. You may say you support single payer, but you voting record shows you value other things far more. This is the problem conservatives like yourself have. You want to political results that will result in harsh negative effects on people's lives, but then expect this real rational debate it after wining. Which is in sharp contrast to the emotion based rhetoric that win Trump this election. Unlike some of y'all on the left, I don't demand strict orthodoxy from politicians whom I support. Do you mind me asking what that means? No specifics, general terms are sufficient. It means that I don't demand that politicians whom I support adhere to every position that I do. In my opinion, far more orthodoxy is demanded from the Left than the Right, but the Right is certainly guilty of it as well on certain issues. I find the charge that I only give lip service to supporting single payer health care by voting republican particularly retarded given that the democrats don't even openly support it. Talk about flagrant hypocrisy.
I am curious why you think we aren't moving on single payer if folks like yourself (not in the progressive caucus) would be able to support it?
|
I'm sorry that I might have expressed myself unclear. What do you mean by strict orthodoxy?
|
On May 25 2017 03:05 Artisreal wrote:
I'm sorry that I might have expressed myself unclear. What do you mean by strict orthodoxy?
"Strict orthodoxy" means adherence to one set of beliefs and practices, with no room for deviation.
|
On May 25 2017 03:04 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2017 02:59 xDaunt wrote:On May 25 2017 02:31 Artisreal wrote:On May 25 2017 02:23 xDaunt wrote:On May 25 2017 01:38 Plansix wrote:On May 25 2017 01:23 xDaunt wrote:On May 25 2017 01:19 Plansix wrote:On May 25 2017 01:16 xDaunt wrote:On May 25 2017 01:10 Biff The Understudy wrote:
That's such a douchy comment to make. The country is made of people, he is a citizen, so it's partly about him, and about the countless people who are in his situation.
Ever heard of empathy, or don't you give a fuck about anything that doesn't happen to you? I mean would it be just "personal" if you were in his situation? Empathy has nothing to do with it. Proper governance isn't about righting individual wrongs and injustices. It's about creating a policy that applies to the whole. There will always be people at the margin who get the short end of the stick when a policy is implemented. Healthcare is no different. Like everything else, it is a finite resource. And just because my observation is douchey doesn't mean that it is incorrect. No, just the overwhelming evidence that our healthcare system is a for-profit capitalist nightmare that was bankrupting Americans and slowly destroying our economy. And the entire group of functional of smaller nations, including Canada, that can support have functional heathcare systems that work. As always, it is the evidence that makes you wrong. The doucheyness speaks for itself. This is where I remind everyone that I'm in favor of baseline single payer healthcare. You're basically proving my larger point: so many of y'all on the left have worked yourselves up into such a frenzy that you can no longer see straight on these political issues. You may say you support single payer, but you voting record shows you value other things far more. This is the problem conservatives like yourself have. You want to political results that will result in harsh negative effects on people's lives, but then expect this real rational debate it after wining. Which is in sharp contrast to the emotion based rhetoric that win Trump this election. Unlike some of y'all on the left, I don't demand strict orthodoxy from politicians whom I support. Do you mind me asking what that means? No specifics, general terms are sufficient. It means that I don't demand that politicians whom I support adhere to every position that I do. In my opinion, far more orthodoxy is demanded from the Left than the Right, but the Right is certainly guilty of it as well on certain issues. I find the charge that I only give lip service to supporting single payer health care by voting republican particularly retarded given that the democrats don't even openly support it. Talk about flagrant hypocrisy. I am curious why you think we aren't moving on single payer if folks like yourself (not in the progressive caucus) would be able to support it?
A combination of idiocy, misinformation, and the American spirit.
|
I will repeat why I think we don't have single payer: we don't have a VAT. Every other single payer country has significantly less progressive taxes when it comes to middle class taxation thanks to the VAT. If you are in the 75k a year sweet spot and are a homeowner with kids you can get a fair amount of deductions. If the USA had a VAT then it would have the tax base turning knob to move insurance premiums onto the federal tab.
|
On May 25 2017 03:09 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2017 03:05 Artisreal wrote:
I'm sorry that I might have expressed myself unclear. What do you mean by strict orthodoxy? "Strict orthodoxy" means adherence to one set of beliefs and practices, with no room for deviation.
Thank you for clarifying. Much more coherent this way 
|
United States42817 Posts
On May 25 2017 03:21 Wulfey_LA wrote:
I will repeat why I think we don't have single payer: we don't have a VAT. Every other single payer country has significantly less progressive taxes when it comes to middle class taxation thanks to the VAT. If you are in the 75k a year sweet spot and are a homeowner with kids you can get a fair amount of deductions. If the USA had a VAT then it would have the tax base turning knob to move insurance premiums onto the federal tab.
The US has a shitton of stealth flat taxes like VAT. Flat payroll taxes on all earned income which are stealth taxes that come out before you see your paycheck. Sales taxes levied by states, municipalities and local districts. Consumption taxes on petrol, sodas and so forth.
The US taxes people at much higher rates than the stated tax rates in the tax code.
Literally all VAT is is a nationwide sales tax. My current city has higher VAT than the UK.
|
The real question is, where is the US not collecting taxes that the UK/EU are?
|
United States42817 Posts
On May 25 2017 03:28 Plansix wrote:
The real question is, where is the US not collecting taxes that the UK/EU are?
Stamp duty on stock purchases. Bernie proposed it and it was torn to shreds as being irrational, impossible to do and totally destructive to the markets. Britain has it.
|
On May 25 2017 03:27 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2017 03:21 Wulfey_LA wrote:
I will repeat why I think we don't have single payer: we don't have a VAT. Every other single payer country has significantly less progressive taxes when it comes to middle class taxation thanks to the VAT. If you are in the 75k a year sweet spot and are a homeowner with kids you can get a fair amount of deductions. If the USA had a VAT then it would have the tax base turning knob to move insurance premiums onto the federal tab. The US has a shitton of stealth flat taxes like VAT. Flat payroll taxes on all earned income which are stealth taxes that come out before you see your paycheck. Sales taxes levied by states, municipalities and local districts. Consumption taxes on petrol, sodas and so forth. The US taxes people at much higher rates than the stated tax rates in the tax code. Literally all VAT is is a nationwide sales tax. My current city has higher VAT than the UK.
In countries where you have a VAT the middle class pays more. USA ends up having a relatively more progressive tax scheme compared to VAT-European countries because we don't tax the middle class as much as they do. If the USA rolled its state sales taxes into a VAT with state based add ons, then the federal government would have a finer tuning knob to gather the funding necessary to move so much money (insurance premiums) onto the federal books. Because of the tuning knobs congress has (payroll taxes, capital gains, income taxes), any raises really hit high W2 earners hard but tend to not lay into the 75k bracket that much.
Interestingly, countries with top personal income tax rates that are higher than in the U.S., such as Germany, France, or Sweden, have ratios that are closer to 1 to 1. Meaning, the share of the tax burden paid by the richest decile in those countries is roughly equal to their share of the nation's income. By contrast, we prefer to have the wealthiest households in this country pay a share of the tax burden that is one-third greater than their share of the nation's income.
https://taxfoundation.org/no-country-leans-upper-income-households-much-us/
Our top 10 percent gets a bigger slice to start, but it also pays a much higher share of the tax burden than the upper classes in other countries do. In Sweden, generally considered the most economically egalitarian country on the planet, the rich pay taxes that are more or less exactly their share of income. These numbers are a little dated, coming as they do from a 2008 OECD report, but the point stands.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/04/05/americas-taxes-are-the-most-progressive-in-the-world-its-government-is-among-the-least/?utm_term=.1ac0901ae55a
|
Because we have idiots in this country who still believe in American Dream and not the greater good.
|
On May 25 2017 03:32 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2017 03:28 Plansix wrote:
The real question is, where is the US not collecting taxes that the UK/EU are? Stamp duty on stock purchases. Bernie proposed it and it was torn to shreds as being irrational, impossible to do and totally destructive to the markets. Britain has it.
Reforming Wall Street is going to be a struggle. We have 30 years of deregulation and pro-free market conditioning to push back against. There are few sitting politicians that were in office during Clintons push to deregulation, let alone pre-Reagan
|
United States42817 Posts
On May 25 2017 03:35 Wulfey_LA wrote:
In countries where you have a VAT the middle class pays more. USA ends up having a relatively more progressive tax scheme compared to VAT-European countries because we don't tax the middle class as much as they do. If the USA rolled its state sales taxes into a VAT with state based add ons, then the federal government would have a finer tuning knob to gather the funding necessary to move so much money (insurance premiums) onto the federal books. Because of the tuning knobs congress has (payroll taxes, capital gains, income taxes), any raises really hit high W2 earners hard but tend to not lay into the 75k bracket that much.
What the hell are you talking about? Payroll taxes are regressive/flat taxes. In the US you pay 15.3% flat tax on all earnings up to $118,500 then 2.9% on everything over that. And as for capital gains. 75k income folks make most their money from earned income, they pay income taxes. 1000k income folks make most their money from capital gains, they pay a flat 20%.
This whole idea that Europe taxes the middle classes to death while the US leaves them alone is silly. The difference is in the presentation.
|
Taxes alone will not solve the healthcare issue though. A necessary part of universal healthcare is to limit the spending towards the profits of the healthcare suppliers. You simply can't let a government-funded schema leak so much money to private businesses as it happens now with the commercial healthcare you have. That means a lot of regulation, which would surely grind a lot of gears in the "mah freeeedom" circles. At the end, if you have something government-funded, it's generally better to have it also government-run, otherwise you are just making it more expensive by paying the middleman. But in the presence of multi-billion existing private infrastructure, I can really see this being a though sell.
|
On May 25 2017 03:47 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2017 03:35 Wulfey_LA wrote:
In countries where you have a VAT the middle class pays more. USA ends up having a relatively more progressive tax scheme compared to VAT-European countries because we don't tax the middle class as much as they do. If the USA rolled its state sales taxes into a VAT with state based add ons, then the federal government would have a finer tuning knob to gather the funding necessary to move so much money (insurance premiums) onto the federal books. Because of the tuning knobs congress has (payroll taxes, capital gains, income taxes), any raises really hit high W2 earners hard but tend to not lay into the 75k bracket that much. What the hell are you talking about? Payroll taxes are regressive/flat taxes. In the US you pay 15.3% flat tax on all earnings up to $118,500 then 2.9% on everything over that. And as for capital gains. 75k income folks make most their money from earned income, they pay income taxes. 1000k income folks make most their money from capital gains, they pay a flat 20%. This whole idea that Europe taxes the middle classes to death while the US leaves them alone is silly. The difference is in the presentation.
It is damnably hard for me to find composite data of both state/local and federal rammed together. From what I have reviewed, state/local end up being regressive. But federal taxes are strongly progressive in the USA. My point is that if the state and local were rolled into a VAT you could put more taxation on the middle class to fund strong redistribution like they do in EU and the anglosphere.
+ Show Spoiler +
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_United_States
+ Show Spoiler +
https://itep.org/wp-content/uploads/whopaysreport.pdf
|
The question of money is idiocy considering we already pay more than countries that already have it. It isn't about finding more money, it's about better using the money we are already spending.
|
On May 25 2017 04:09 Wulfey_LA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2017 03:47 KwarK wrote:On May 25 2017 03:35 Wulfey_LA wrote:
In countries where you have a VAT the middle class pays more. USA ends up having a relatively more progressive tax scheme compared to VAT-European countries because we don't tax the middle class as much as they do. If the USA rolled its state sales taxes into a VAT with state based add ons, then the federal government would have a finer tuning knob to gather the funding necessary to move so much money (insurance premiums) onto the federal books. Because of the tuning knobs congress has (payroll taxes, capital gains, income taxes), any raises really hit high W2 earners hard but tend to not lay into the 75k bracket that much. What the hell are you talking about? Payroll taxes are regressive/flat taxes. In the US you pay 15.3% flat tax on all earnings up to $118,500 then 2.9% on everything over that. And as for capital gains. 75k income folks make most their money from earned income, they pay income taxes. 1000k income folks make most their money from capital gains, they pay a flat 20%. This whole idea that Europe taxes the middle classes to death while the US leaves them alone is silly. The difference is in the presentation. It is damnably hard for me to find composite data of both state/local and federal rammed together. From what I have reviewed, state/local end up being regressive. But federal taxes are strongly progressive in the USA. My point is that if the state and local were rolled into a VAT you could put more taxation on the middle class to fund strong redistribution like they do in EU and the anglosphere. + Show Spoiler +https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_United_States+ Show Spoiler +https://itep.org/wp-content/uploads/whopaysreport.pdf
As Kwark pointed out in one of his previous posts that doesn't tell the whole story as the source of the income for the upper percentiles progressively skews away from income into capital gains so the actual taxes collected do not exactly match the stated tax rates on those graphs.
|
Pellegrino won in Long Island, Ossoff is ahead in Georgia, Quist is announced as close in Montana for tomorrow.
I think it's starting.
|
Ofcourse it's starting, the republicans have a chance and they are going to blow it. Trump isn't helping either, and in a few years the majority will be lost and hopefully we can prevent the US from going full socialist when that happens.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/US_federal_effective_tax_rates_by_income_percentile_and_component.gif)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qayNpvN.png)
