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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 7605

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
May 22 2017 17:41 GMT
#152081
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23659 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-22 17:45:49
May 22 2017 17:43 GMT
#152082
On May 23 2017 01:59 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
This argument appears to be uniquely American. I think I just uncovered a disturbing "meme" of some sort, probably propugated by the healthcare and pharma lobby.

I was interested so I randomly read many different sources. By any metric, be it documents produces, and money devoted, per capita nearly every other rich country match or exceed the US. Of interest seems to be the Scandinavian countries, Switzerland and Singapore which appears to completely blow USA out of the water proportionally. I think only in citations per capita does USA lead any other country, but USA normally leads in citations and UK matches it. It is only because USA has 5 times the population of the nearest country that it could be said to be leading medical research.

Show nested quote +
On May 23 2017 01:46 ticklishmusic wrote:
On May 23 2017 01:18 ZeaL. wrote:
On May 23 2017 00:36 ticklishmusic wrote:
On May 23 2017 00:25 Plansix wrote:
The US also has some amazingly poor states with few doctors or sufficient services. The purely capitalist view of how much medical training should cost is never going to solve the problem for states that have weaker economies.


and unfortunately rural practice is often considered bottom of the barrel for grads. lower pay, stuck in the middle of nowhere, etc. the US being so friggin' big and diverse is just another problem that is unique to our healthcare system.


Actually this depends on the specialty. I know that for some surgical specialties and dentistry, states like ny ca (and Utah for dentistry) have low salaries due to oversaturation. As an ophthalmologist it's much easier to find well paying jobs on places like Kentucky or Idaho plus much lower cost of living. But then you have to live there.


that's my point

On May 23 2017 01:27 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On May 23 2017 00:50 Plansix wrote:
On May 23 2017 00:37 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
It's probably true that USA undertakes a large proportion of medical research, but I beleive Europe undertakes a similar amount of medical research. I don't know what the figures will be adjusted for population though: it may as well be Germany or Switzerland or Britain that which has more medical research and medicine per population. In any case it would be a tenous to link medical research with doctors. As for new procedures, I haven't heard or seen any analysis for it so it may be true. It's an interesting phrase, but ultimately baseless.

I am not convinced that medical research is so valuable that is needs to be funded on the back of unsustainable healthcare costs for the nation. There might be another solution to that problem that doesn’t involve people avoiding the doctor due to fear of medical costs. That argument has always seemed weak at best.

To be honest I am not sure why some people are linking medical research with quality healthcare or healthcare costs.


you were the one who linked the two by commenting on the US not having "the best" doctors, which is a separate issue from the US having quality/ affordable care.

I am pretty sure I read that exact phrase or similar every time healthcare is discussed in the US thread.


I said it, but I was saying it's stupid to say. I mean I'm sure America has some of the worlds best doctors/surgeons (what is a great doctor anyway?) but they are only available to a tiny sliver of society. So as a typical citizen you're far more likely to get a better doctor in a Scandinavian country than you would as an American.

But if you're a multi-millionaire Republican Senator/Congressman you do have access to some of the best healthcare in the world and those without access are the ones paying for it for them. As such, like a LOT of America's problems, we get told it's not a problem by the wealthy white males who don't have a problem with a system like that.

The "intersectional" neoliberals will also tell you how more women and minorities should also have the people without access paying for their healthcare too instead of just white men.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-22 17:45:06
May 22 2017 17:44 GMT
#152083
On May 23 2017 02:39 Mohdoo wrote:
The solution to the alt-right problem is discourse and lots of it. People on the other side of the aisle should be setting up debates and other instances of idea battles. The solution is to engage with them in excess, not to dismiss them. This should be a really active thing that extends beyond shouting matches. Universities are well equipped to put on debates and I'm surprised it isn't happening more often.


As the article says, there is a fine line and a lot of thought needs to be put into how to respond. There is room for debate, but only if it is in good faith. One of the goals of Nazism was to use public, democratic platforms as a method of recruiting and pushing their ideas. It is the "all press is good press approach" to spreading your ideas. And since they style themselves as repressed and assaulted by the main stream/establishment, public discourse might backfire.

In short, they can lose the debate and still claim victory, because the main stream education establishment rigged it. And since they are the masters of denying reality, that won't be a huge leap for them or their supporters. Do engagement might not always be the answer.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ShoCkeyy
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
7815 Posts
May 22 2017 17:48 GMT
#152084
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-court-voters-idUSKBN18I1SG

The U.S. Supreme Court on Monday ruled that Republicans in North Carolina unlawfully took race into consideration when drawing congressional district boundaries, concentrating black voters in an improper bid to diminish their statewide political clout.

The justices upheld a lower court's February 2016 ruling that threw out two majority-black U.S. House of Representatives districts because Republican lawmakers improperly used race as a factor when redrawing the legislative map after the 2010 census.

The decision came in one of a number of lawsuits accusing Republicans of taking steps at the state level to disenfranchise black and other minority voters who tend to back Democratic candidates.

The justices found that the manner in which the North Carolina voting district boundaries were sketched violated the U.S. Constitution's guarantee of equal protection under the law. The ruling may offer a roadmap for challenging similarly drawn districts nationwide.

Life?
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
May 22 2017 17:58 GMT
#152085
Some of Trump's tactics to get the cash needed to pay for his enormous debt. Note, in 2008 the year of the financial crisis, a Russian oligarch bought a Trump home for $100 million and proceeded to do nothing with it. A $60 million profit for Trump.


The Trump Taj Mahal casino broke anti-money laundering rules 106 times in its first year and a half of operation in the early 1990s, according to the IRS in a 1998 settlement agreement.

It's a bit of forgotten history that's buried in federal records held by an investigative unit of the Treasury Department, records that congressional committees investigating Trump's ties to Russia have obtained access to, CNN has learned.

...

The 1998 settlement was publicly reported at the time, and the Associated Press noted it was the largest fine the federal government ever slapped on a casino for violating the Bank Secrecy Act.

...

According to a dozen anti-money laundering experts, casinos often run into these problems. But getting caught with 106 violations in the casino's opening years is an indicator of a serious problem, they said.

The violations date back to a time when the Taj Mahal was the preferred gambling spot for Russian mobsters living in Brooklyn, according to federal investigators who tracked organized crime in New York City. They also occurred at a time when the Taj Mahal casino was short on cash and on the verge of bankruptcy.

...

There were also financial issues at a second location in Atlantic City, The Trump Castle Hotel Casino, according to a 1991 New Jersey Gaming Enforcement report.

In the report, regulators described an incident on December 18, 1990, the day Trump owed an $18.4 million interest payment.

An attorney named Howard Snyder walked into the Castle casino with a certified check for $3.35 million drawn from a bank account belonging to Fred C. Trump. Snyder exchanged the check for 670 of the casino's gray gambling chips, which he put into a case. He then walked out of the casino.

By not cashing out the chips, the transaction amounted to a loan, regulators said.


www.cnn.com
warding
Profile Joined August 2005
Portugal2394 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-22 18:01:24
May 22 2017 17:59 GMT
#152086
On May 23 2017 02:44 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 23 2017 02:39 Mohdoo wrote:
The solution to the alt-right problem is discourse and lots of it. People on the other side of the aisle should be setting up debates and other instances of idea battles. The solution is to engage with them in excess, not to dismiss them. This should be a really active thing that extends beyond shouting matches. Universities are well equipped to put on debates and I'm surprised it isn't happening more often.


As the article says, there is a fine line and a lot of thought needs to be put into how to respond. There is room for debate, but only if it is in good faith. One of the goals of Nazism was to use public, democratic platforms as a method of recruiting and pushing their ideas. It is the "all press is good press approach" to spreading your ideas. And since they style themselves as repressed and assaulted by the main stream/establishment, public discourse might backfire.

In short, they can lose the debate and still claim victory, because the main stream education establishment rigged it. And since they are the masters of denying reality, that won't be a huge leap for them or their supporters. Do engagement might not always be the answer.

There's that anecdotal case of Superman making fun of the KKK and that having a huge negative impact on membership - link. In Portugal the far-right party once bought a huge outdoor ad in the main plaza advocating for less immigration. The main comedy group in the country responded by buying the outdoor right next to it making fun of it:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
Nationalist outdoor: "No more immigration / Nationalism is the solution / Have a nice trip / Portugal for the Portuguese
Mock outdoor: "More immigration! / The best way to piss off foreigners is to make them live in Portugal / Welcome! / With the Portuguese we'll not get there / Nationalism is idiotic"

Both of them got a lot of airtime. They had something like 0.02% in the national vote.

Usually extremists have no sense of humor. Mockery exposes them and discourages their following.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 22 2017 18:08 GMT
#152087
It also appears the Devos’s education department is attempting to move all student loan collection efforts to one nationwide company, rather than the normal 9 contractors. Because putting an entire nations worth of loans under one group is a totally manageable idea that won’t result in problems. It also was done previously and was shown to give way to much power to a single loan servicer, which limited the government’s ability to regulate it.

But it appears the real goal is to increase defaults, since they are removing a lot of consumer protections and default assistance. So it will increase profits by cutting out costs, but will likely just increase the burden on young people in the economy and those struggling.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2017/05/19/betsy-devos-hits-hard-reset-on-student-loan-servicing-contracts/?utm_term=.d451c908afa6

And lets not forget that DeVos is heavily invested in a student debt collection company. Which would normally disqualify you from working for the education department in normal times. But I am 100% sure that isn’t a factor at all.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2017/01/17/dems-raise-concern-about-possible-links-between-devos-and-student-debt-collection-agency/?utm_term=.cb93a324e147
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
warding
Profile Joined August 2005
Portugal2394 Posts
May 22 2017 18:13 GMT
#152088
The Trump administration appears to be providing the New York Times with fake news, after Donald Trump accused the news organisation of peddling false information.

Maggie Haberman, a White House correspondent for the The Times, suggested that Mr Trump’s team had tried sending reporters false material for stories, but that their efforts had been in vain because journalists “actually vet” the information.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/then-trump-new-york-times-fake-tips-maggie-haberman-news-lies-a7749821.html

DIdn't someone here bring this up recently as a hypothetical? Funny how it actually happen.
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3295 Posts
May 22 2017 18:21 GMT
#152089
On May 23 2017 03:13 warding wrote:
Show nested quote +
The Trump administration appears to be providing the New York Times with fake news, after Donald Trump accused the news organisation of peddling false information.

Maggie Haberman, a White House correspondent for the The Times, suggested that Mr Trump’s team had tried sending reporters false material for stories, but that their efforts had been in vain because journalists “actually vet” the information.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/then-trump-new-york-times-fake-tips-maggie-haberman-news-lies-a7749821.html

DIdn't someone here bring this up recently as a hypothetical? Funny how it actually happen.

Lol. Yeah that was me. Good to see it not working
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
May 22 2017 18:26 GMT
#152090
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 22 2017 18:32 GMT
#152091
The man who yelled "lock her up" is now concerned about public frenzy
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
JW_DTLA
Profile Joined December 2015
242 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-22 19:03:37
May 22 2017 19:01 GMT
#152092
The key to understanding Trump's endless hypocritical contradictions over everything (pleading the 5th in this case), is to realize that he is a salesman first and foremost. Of course he told downmarket white people in Appalachia he wouldn't cut their medicaid, medicare, and social security. And of course he tells Paul Ryan he supports cuts to those same programs. Of course Trump says the whole problem with our approach to terrorism is that we won't say "Radical Islam" and of course he completely wimps out and doesn't say any such thing as the Saudis fellate him. The guy doesn't care that you are paying attention and notice the contradictions. He would sell steak to a vegan if he had to. He says whatever he thinks the closest person to him wants to hear and he doesn't give a shit what he said 5 minutes ago. He thought the Russians would love to hear about this great human intel source on ISIS that we have in Raqqa, and now he says he didn't mention Israel in the meeting with the Russians now that he is in Israel. His fans don't mind the contradiction because they like being lied to. Pure salesman.
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
May 22 2017 19:09 GMT
#152093
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
May 22 2017 19:34 GMT
#152094
On May 23 2017 03:21 ChristianS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 23 2017 03:13 warding wrote:
The Trump administration appears to be providing the New York Times with fake news, after Donald Trump accused the news organisation of peddling false information.

Maggie Haberman, a White House correspondent for the The Times, suggested that Mr Trump’s team had tried sending reporters false material for stories, but that their efforts had been in vain because journalists “actually vet” the information.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/then-trump-new-york-times-fake-tips-maggie-haberman-news-lies-a7749821.html

DIdn't someone here bring this up recently as a hypothetical? Funny how it actually happen.

Lol. Yeah that was me. Good to see it not working

On the other hand, we don't know if it's actually really difficult to mislead reporters or if the Trump administration is uniquely incompetent.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
a_flayer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Netherlands2826 Posts
May 22 2017 19:51 GMT
#152095
On May 23 2017 04:34 Grumbels wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 23 2017 03:21 ChristianS wrote:
On May 23 2017 03:13 warding wrote:
The Trump administration appears to be providing the New York Times with fake news, after Donald Trump accused the news organisation of peddling false information.

Maggie Haberman, a White House correspondent for the The Times, suggested that Mr Trump’s team had tried sending reporters false material for stories, but that their efforts had been in vain because journalists “actually vet” the information.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/then-trump-new-york-times-fake-tips-maggie-haberman-news-lies-a7749821.html

DIdn't someone here bring this up recently as a hypothetical? Funny how it actually happen.

Lol. Yeah that was me. Good to see it not working

On the other hand, we don't know if it's actually really difficult to mislead reporters or if the Trump administration is uniquely incompetent.

We don't know that? Where have you been in the past few months?
When you came along so righteous with a new national hate, so convincing is the ardor of war and of men, it's harder to breathe than to believe you're a friend. The wars at home, the wars abroad, all soaked in blood and lies and fraud.
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
May 22 2017 19:54 GMT
#152096
On May 23 2017 04:51 a_flayer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 23 2017 04:34 Grumbels wrote:
On May 23 2017 03:21 ChristianS wrote:
On May 23 2017 03:13 warding wrote:
The Trump administration appears to be providing the New York Times with fake news, after Donald Trump accused the news organisation of peddling false information.

Maggie Haberman, a White House correspondent for the The Times, suggested that Mr Trump’s team had tried sending reporters false material for stories, but that their efforts had been in vain because journalists “actually vet” the information.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/then-trump-new-york-times-fake-tips-maggie-haberman-news-lies-a7749821.html

DIdn't someone here bring this up recently as a hypothetical? Funny how it actually happen.

Lol. Yeah that was me. Good to see it not working

On the other hand, we don't know if it's actually really difficult to mislead reporters or if the Trump administration is uniquely incompetent.

We don't know that? Where have you been in the past few months?


he's saying that there's no evidence that it won't work if the people are competent. we know the administration is incompetent so whether it can do something doesn't tell us anything about whether it would work.
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
May 22 2017 19:56 GMT
#152097
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 22 2017 19:56 GMT
#152098
Think you can trick one of the oldest and well respected publications in the world to publishing a BS story is pretty bush league on its face. That is the Trump camp drinking their own Koolaid.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ZerOCoolSC2
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
9025 Posts
May 22 2017 19:59 GMT
#152099
On May 23 2017 02:41 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/866676207445835778

I feel like this is being skipped over. By saying he never mentioned Israel, he mentions Israel, even though it was never mentioned, only assumed.

He confirms our suspensions on accident.
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
May 22 2017 20:03 GMT
#152100
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