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On March 11 2017 03:58 LightSpectra wrote:
That poll is nonsense. They don't do the same thing. Bureaucrats only follow orders, the only measure of their success is if they do the job competently and don't succumb to corruption (bribery, nepotism, party favoritism, etc.).
If you have a better poll feel free to suggest it.
some bureaucrats are also partly in charge of making policy, especially in the details.
wasn't sure where to place judges in there.
I hear a fair bit of rhetoric lately complaining about non-elected officials.
One reason I ask is that when I've watched things on cspan and such, especially things that really get down into the details, or at committee hearings, I often find I much prefer the work done by the bureaucrats than what's done by the politicians, and find them to be better and more reasonable people. but that's just one person's observations, so I'm interested in more opinions and data.
Then there's also the research comparing the results of elected vs appointed judges.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
I think elections are bullshit and we should have all work be done by unelected bureaucrats; the president should be chosen by committee along with all our representatives in the legislature. Alternatively: I'm sick and tired of all these goddamn unelected fucks just doing things wrong, we need to elect every single official from the president down to the school janitor, by direct election.
Pick one.
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Yeah, what LL said.
Here's the thing to note. Democratizing an office (i.e. giving the people the option to vote out the holder) opens the door for it to turn to shit if it's currently being run well. On the other hand, if it's not being run well, democracy (and violent revolution) are the only ways to fix it. So which is better?
Humanity has overwhelmingly decided that the ability to fix something broken is more important than keeping something good in perpetual stasis except by bloodshed. "If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary."
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The bureaucrat’s agencies, positions, systems, roles and the scope of their powers were created by the elected politicians. We cannot have one without the other.
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On March 11 2017 04:11 LightSpectra wrote:
Yeah, what LL said.
Here's the thing to note. Democratizing an office (i.e. giving the people the option to vote out the holder) opens the door for it to turn to shit if it's currently being run well. On the other hand, if it's not being run well, democracy (and violent revolution) are the only ways to fix it. So which is better?
Humanity has overwhelmingly decided that the ability to fix something broken is more important than keeping something good in perpetual stasis except by bloodshed. "If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary."
that doesn't really follow. there's also indirect elections via appointed positions; and potentially many other forms of government.
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Yes, but this isn’t the abstract, mythical government thread. In the US, elected officials create the agencies that run the government.
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Considering what is happening in South Korea right now, and all the billowing smoke coming from the American administration, I wanna ask you guys a hypothetical question. Let's say the Russia shit turns out to be true and all our worst fears are realized. It is decided that Президент Trump will be impeached and members of his administration are charged with crimes. Considering this wild hypothetical, do you guys think that there is any chance that a peaceful transition from Trump to Pence is possible? Or do you think that the Trumpets and the normal humans of America will clash violently in the streets? On the same topic, if this type of scenario were to play out, do you think Trump would even surrender power? Just curious because I have always kind of viewed us as immune to that kind of unrest, but the more that happens in the world (and in our own country with the kinds of whackos that post on Breitbart) the more I doubt it.
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On March 11 2017 04:20 Plansix wrote:
Yes, but this isn’t the abstract, mythical government thread. In the US, elected officials create the agencies that run the government.
which doesn't really change the validity of my points or the discussion; or that some of hte counter are based on an extreme scenario which was not proposed, which is really more of a strawman rather than addressing the actual point.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On March 11 2017 04:23 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Considering what is happening in South Korea right now, and all the billowing smoke coming from the American administration, I wanna ask you guys a hypothetical question. Let's say the Russia shit turns out to be true and all our worst fears are realized. It is decided that Президент Trump will be impeached and members of his administration are charged with crimes. Considering this wild hypothetical, do you guys think that there is any chance that a peaceful transition from Trump to Pence is possible? Or do you think that the Trumpets and the normal humans of America will clash violently in the streets? On the same topic, if this type of scenario were to play out, do you think Trump would even surrender power? Just curious because I have always kind of viewed us as immune to that kind of unrest, but the more that happens in the world (and in our own country with the kinds of whackos that post on Breitbart) the more I doubt it.
It's not going to destroy America but it won't go down smoothly, that's for sure.
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On March 11 2017 04:23 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Considering what is happening in South Korea right now, and all the billowing smoke coming from the American administration, I wanna ask you guys a hypothetical question. Let's say the Russia shit turns out to be true and all our worst fears are realized. It is decided that Президент Trump will be impeached and members of his administration are charged with crimes. Considering this wild hypothetical, do you guys think that there is any chance that a peaceful transition from Trump to Pence is possible? Or do you think that the Trumpets and the normal humans of America will clash violently in the streets? On the same topic, if this type of scenario were to play out, do you think Trump would even surrender power? Just curious because I have always kind of viewed us as immune to that kind of unrest, but the more that happens in the world (and in our own country with the kinds of whackos that post on Breitbart) the more I doubt it.
I think the transition would be peaceful, aside from a few sporadic outbreaks of violence. this assumes the evidence is very thorough of course. trump will still have his supporters, but there won't be many who'd care enough to engage in actual violence over the matter, since Pence is good enough for most people.
I don't see the police or military being willing ot support Trump, at least not in the kind of numbers necessary.
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Pretty sure Pence would go down with the ship if the Russian allegations were proved true. He was a heavy part of the Trump campaign so it's a given that he'd be guilty as well.
Going by this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_line_of_succession
Paul Ryan would become president. (God help us all.)
There'd be riots but I think our government would survive.
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On March 11 2017 04:24 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2017 04:20 Plansix wrote:
Yes, but this isn’t the abstract, mythical government thread. In the US, elected officials create the agencies that run the government. which doesn't really change the validity of my points or the discussion; or that some of hte counter are based on an extreme scenario which was not proposed, which is really more of a strawman rather than addressing the actual point.
Yes, and the point people were attempting to make is that the two roles are interconnected in an effort to create checks and balances of power. You decided to ignore that cite your normal complaints about congress not digging into the issues at public hearings to a level you find acceptable.
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We're in good hands, everybody.
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On March 11 2017 04:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2017 04:24 zlefin wrote:On March 11 2017 04:20 Plansix wrote:
Yes, but this isn’t the abstract, mythical government thread. In the US, elected officials create the agencies that run the government. which doesn't really change the validity of my points or the discussion; or that some of hte counter are based on an extreme scenario which was not proposed, which is really more of a strawman rather than addressing the actual point. Yes, and the point people were attempting to make is that the two roles are interconnected in an effort to create checks and balances of power. You decided to ignore that cite your normal complaints about congress not digging into the issues at public hearings to a level you find acceptable.
no, i didn't ignore that, I asked a generic question, and others took it to an extreme and unnecessary conclusion, rather than considering the obvious milder options like more power to the appointed officials.
you can still have checks and balances if you tweak the values a bit.
so no, your counterpoint is not sound.
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On March 11 2017 04:23 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Considering what is happening in South Korea right now, and all the billowing smoke coming from the American administration, I wanna ask you guys a hypothetical question. Let's say the Russia shit turns out to be true and all our worst fears are realized. It is decided that Президент Trump will be impeached and members of his administration are charged with crimes. Considering this wild hypothetical, do you guys think that there is any chance that a peaceful transition from Trump to Pence is possible? Or do you think that the Trumpets and the normal humans of America will clash violently in the streets? On the same topic, if this type of scenario were to play out, do you think Trump would even surrender power? Just curious because I have always kind of viewed us as immune to that kind of unrest, but the more that happens in the world (and in our own country with the kinds of whackos that post on Breitbart) the more I doubt it.
Would you consider the transfer of power from Obama to Trump to be peaceful? I saw "normal humans" rioting and #NotMyPresident #Resist everywhere ("unrest"). Seems like accepting the results of an election were already overrated.
Also, remember that impeachment is one separate process. Bill Clinton was impeached. He did not confront the scenario of transfer of power because he stayed in office after impeachment and finished the term!
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I would say that anyone who expected people not to protest Trump wasn’t paying attention or lack basic critical thinking skills. Politics don't end after the election. That is the start of the process.
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On March 11 2017 04:33 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2017 04:23 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Considering what is happening in South Korea right now, and all the billowing smoke coming from the American administration, I wanna ask you guys a hypothetical question. Let's say the Russia shit turns out to be true and all our worst fears are realized. It is decided that Президент Trump will be impeached and members of his administration are charged with crimes. Considering this wild hypothetical, do you guys think that there is any chance that a peaceful transition from Trump to Pence is possible? Or do you think that the Trumpets and the normal humans of America will clash violently in the streets? On the same topic, if this type of scenario were to play out, do you think Trump would even surrender power? Just curious because I have always kind of viewed us as immune to that kind of unrest, but the more that happens in the world (and in our own country with the kinds of whackos that post on Breitbart) the more I doubt it. Would you consider the transfer of power from Obama to Trump to be peaceful? I saw "normal humans" rioting and #NotMyPresident #Resist everywhere ("unrest"). Seems like accepting the results of an election were already overrated. Also, remember that impeachment is one separate process. Bill Clinton was impeached. He did not confront the scenario of transfer of power because he stayed in office after impeachment and finished the term!
You forgot the bit about him being acquitted. In this magical world of yours do people go to jail after being the jury declares them innocent as well?
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On March 11 2017 04:23 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Considering what is happening in South Korea right now, and all the billowing smoke coming from the American administration, I wanna ask you guys a hypothetical question. Let's say the Russia shit turns out to be true and all our worst fears are realized. It is decided that Президент Trump will be impeached and members of his administration are charged with crimes. Considering this wild hypothetical, do you guys think that there is any chance that a peaceful transition from Trump to Pence is possible? Or do you think that the Trumpets and the normal humans of America will clash violently in the streets? On the same topic, if this type of scenario were to play out, do you think Trump would even surrender power? Just curious because I have always kind of viewed us as immune to that kind of unrest, but the more that happens in the world (and in our own country with the kinds of whackos that post on Breitbart) the more I doubt it.
The only people I saw clashing in the streets until now were on inauguration day and they weren't 'Trumpets', as you call them...
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On March 11 2017 04:33 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2017 04:23 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Considering what is happening in South Korea right now, and all the billowing smoke coming from the American administration, I wanna ask you guys a hypothetical question. Let's say the Russia shit turns out to be true and all our worst fears are realized. It is decided that Президент Trump will be impeached and members of his administration are charged with crimes. Considering this wild hypothetical, do you guys think that there is any chance that a peaceful transition from Trump to Pence is possible? Or do you think that the Trumpets and the normal humans of America will clash violently in the streets? On the same topic, if this type of scenario were to play out, do you think Trump would even surrender power? Just curious because I have always kind of viewed us as immune to that kind of unrest, but the more that happens in the world (and in our own country with the kinds of whackos that post on Breitbart) the more I doubt it. Would you consider the transfer of power from Obama to Trump to be peaceful? I saw "normal humans" rioting and #NotMyPresident #Resist everywhere ("unrest"). Seems like accepting the results of an election were already overrated. Also, remember that impeachment is one separate process. Bill Clinton was impeached. He did not confront the scenario of transfer of power because he stayed in office after impeachment and finished the term!
There was no attempted coup d'etat or civil war. The riots weren't nearly as bad as some of the ones in American history. It was a peaceful transfer by any reasonable standard.
The only precedent we have is Richard Nixon who resigned peacefully instead of dragging out the impeachment process. It's questionable if Trump would agree to the same thing.
On March 11 2017 04:38 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2017 04:33 Danglars wrote:On March 11 2017 04:23 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Considering what is happening in South Korea right now, and all the billowing smoke coming from the American administration, I wanna ask you guys a hypothetical question. Let's say the Russia shit turns out to be true and all our worst fears are realized. It is decided that Президент Trump will be impeached and members of his administration are charged with crimes. Considering this wild hypothetical, do you guys think that there is any chance that a peaceful transition from Trump to Pence is possible? Or do you think that the Trumpets and the normal humans of America will clash violently in the streets? On the same topic, if this type of scenario were to play out, do you think Trump would even surrender power? Just curious because I have always kind of viewed us as immune to that kind of unrest, but the more that happens in the world (and in our own country with the kinds of whackos that post on Breitbart) the more I doubt it. Would you consider the transfer of power from Obama to Trump to be peaceful? I saw "normal humans" rioting and #NotMyPresident #Resist everywhere ("unrest"). Seems like accepting the results of an election were already overrated. Also, remember that impeachment is one separate process. Bill Clinton was impeached. He did not confront the scenario of transfer of power because he stayed in office after impeachment and finished the term! You forgot the bit about him being acquitted. In this magical world of yours do people go to jail after being the jury declares them innocent as well?
Bill Clinton wasn't acquitted. He was impeached. The GOP just didn't get the votes required to remove him from office, so all he got was a censure.
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On March 11 2017 04:38 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2017 04:33 Danglars wrote:On March 11 2017 04:23 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Considering what is happening in South Korea right now, and all the billowing smoke coming from the American administration, I wanna ask you guys a hypothetical question. Let's say the Russia shit turns out to be true and all our worst fears are realized. It is decided that Президент Trump will be impeached and members of his administration are charged with crimes. Considering this wild hypothetical, do you guys think that there is any chance that a peaceful transition from Trump to Pence is possible? Or do you think that the Trumpets and the normal humans of America will clash violently in the streets? On the same topic, if this type of scenario were to play out, do you think Trump would even surrender power? Just curious because I have always kind of viewed us as immune to that kind of unrest, but the more that happens in the world (and in our own country with the kinds of whackos that post on Breitbart) the more I doubt it. Would you consider the transfer of power from Obama to Trump to be peaceful? I saw "normal humans" rioting and #NotMyPresident #Resist everywhere ("unrest"). Seems like accepting the results of an election were already overrated. Also, remember that impeachment is one separate process. Bill Clinton was impeached. He did not confront the scenario of transfer of power because he stayed in office after impeachment and finished the term! You forgot the bit about him being acquitted. In this magical world of yours do people go to jail after being the jury declares them innocent as well?
Do you mistake impeachment to mean more, like the one before you?
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