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On March 01 2017 13:25 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2017 13:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 01 2017 13:03 Plansix wrote:On March 01 2017 13:01 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 01 2017 12:54 Plansix wrote:On March 01 2017 12:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 01 2017 12:47 Plansix wrote:
This pretty much sums it up.
How much of this are you guys going to put up with before you say enough? The rebuttal to the speech is always a meat grinder. It isn't something I concern myself with. It's not about the content, it's about the message they were sending. They would have been better off just not responding. The other aspect being that clearly they are moving further right to try to capture the wwc and ignoring the millions of millennials and others who are upset about that very choice (moving right, not trying to get the wwc). You think telling the segments of the party that Bernie crushed Hillary in to jump off a cliff is a wise strategy? Hell, they could have given it to a progressive just to throw them to the wolves. They aren't even stomping out that segment of party correctly. Oh fucking yawn GH. It's a big county, they need a couple messages. Shockingly your shitty measage doesn't even appeal to every left leaning person in this thread, so maybe you just suck at conniving people of anything. When it comes to voting time, you all can't say you weren't warned (again). Mine isn't even a message so much as commentary on the dismal state of the Democratic party. GH, you are welcome to bring all your progressive fiends to my rural ass, white as the driven snow home town and convince them of the merits of progressive values. Its like 900 people, zero minorities. We had a black family live there for all of seven months. Surrounded by dead mill towns were all the manufacturing jobs left. Dirt poor. My elementary school got condemned by the state and the two towns next to us had to chip in to build a new school. I want to see the pitch. The message you folks would use to convince that place that single payer is the way, $15 minimum wage is the future. They got mad because Dunken Donuts paid $10 per hour out by Boston, so I want to see the $15 solid to them. Because the message that was on tonight would have appealed to my home town. They like that shit. They like being talked to by people who say "I'm like you". They like diners and not to talk about diversity or hippy issues. Yes, they still say things like hippy issues.
That's the problem, instead of getting back the Democrats they lost and more, they are trying to win over Republicans against a man that will promise them the world and successfully blame Democrats and the media when he can't deliver.
Sooner or later you all will realize how dumb of a strategy this is.
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My home town is center left. They only care about jobs and guns. They will switch parties before voting for someone like sanders. Or Ellison.
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On March 01 2017 13:35 Plansix wrote:
My home town is center left. They only care about jobs and guns. They will switch parties before voting for someone like sanders. Or Ellison.
This is the problem. You can go for them, or you can go for the millions of overwhelmingly progressive and underrepresented millennials, or you can try to drag them and the party to the right to satisfy your home town of 900, while Trump promises them things Democrats wont. One of those is a dumb strategy.
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Kentucky used to be petty decent for dems. So they've lost democrats their too. do
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On March 01 2017 13:37 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2017 13:35 Plansix wrote:
My home town is center left. They only care about jobs and guns. They will switch parties before voting for someone like sanders. Or Ellison. This is the problem. You can go for them, or you can go for the millions of overwhelmingly progressive and underrepresented millennials, or you can try to drag them and the party to the right to satisfy your home town of 900, while Trump promises them things Democrats wont. One of those is a dumb strategy.
As long as the EC does not go away I doubt that convincing millions of millennials in already blue states will do much though. The vote of these 900 people is very important.
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You need to win the whole country to control the house or senate. Not just the places progressives happen to live.
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On March 01 2017 13:37 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
Kentucky used to be petty decent for dems. So they've lost democrats their too. do
Mitch the turtles home state. Don't think the "progressives" are taking that any time soon.
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On March 01 2017 13:38 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2017 13:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 01 2017 13:35 Plansix wrote:
My home town is center left. They only care about jobs and guns. They will switch parties before voting for someone like sanders. Or Ellison. This is the problem. You can go for them, or you can go for the millions of overwhelmingly progressive and underrepresented millennials, or you can try to drag them and the party to the right to satisfy your home town of 900, while Trump promises them things Democrats wont. One of those is a dumb strategy. As long as the EC does not go away I doubt that convincing millions of millennials in already blue states will do much though. The vote of these 900 people is very important.
Millennials aren't limited to blue states.
On March 01 2017 13:43 Plansix wrote:
You need to win the whole country to control the house or senate. Not just the places progressives happen to live.
Yes, I mean progressives live everywhere, but I get your point. That's why they should be uniting around a message of Medicare for all. It's a policy that both "centrists" and the progressive wing of Democrats agree on, and 2-4 out of 10 Republicans do too.
You're not going to appeal to the demos that rebuttal was targeted at by promising them the same things as Trump, but less. That's just dumb.
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The democrats lost KY by running a black man and then Hillary Clinton - her being a woman didn't help, but bashing coal in the middle of WV probably lost both of those states for a couple of cycles.
Run as economically progressive as you like, KY will at least listen on many issues. Social issues it's very backwards though, despite having a few gay strongholds. In a way, the common view here is that there are bigger problems to address first - opioid epidemics, poverty, unemployment, etc. It's a state that used to be dominated by coal mining unions - which is why it was a democratic stronghold. That coal jobs are going away is something they know, but they can't accept someone telling them to get used to it.
KY/WV were the only 2 (maybe there was 3rd?) states where Hillary didn't win the millenial vote. That's how unpopular she was as a candidate here (mainly I heard her bashed for "identity" politics). Surprisingly, I think Sanders actually practically tied her in the primary here. I think Hillary thought she was popular in WV/KY because she won the 2008 primaries over Obama, not realizing that no, those states are just very racist.
Basically, Sanders played a LOT better than Hillary among the general public here because he wasn't as noisy about issues they disagreed on (social issues) and the criticism Hillary launched of him (too soft on guns, etc.) was more aligned to their values.
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It is over a year until we even start thinking about mid terms. Tonight is not the night. It's Tumps show for at least 6 months or more.
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medicare for all, like universal basic income and many over social programs, is very popular until people realize the level of taxation needed. i guess there's the leftist version of magic math where you tax the corporations and rich, do a little adjusting for "efficiencies" and all of a sudden the numbers add up. devil's in the details, though people don't seem to appreciate that.
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People in my home town care a lot of how things are paid for, because they don't like taxes. You tell them that medicare is expanding, they will assume it will cost a lot and not be for them. You tell them that you will tax the rich to pay for something, they won't believe you. The concept of free college is crazy talk, because people will just waste money. Except for their kids, who could use that. But they will just the money to pay for college themselves, rather than have it be free for everyone.
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On March 01 2017 14:19 ticklishmusic wrote:
medicare for all, like universal basic income and many over social programs, is very popular until people realize the level of taxation needed. i guess there's the leftist version of magic math where you tax the corporations and rich, do a little adjusting for "efficiencies" and all of a sudden the numbers add up. devil's in the details, though people don't seem to appreciate that.
Just call it an "insurance premium" then, if they prefer to pay that instead.
Pitch it as treatment for the opioid epidemic in those rural places and explain it will be mostly California and New York paying for it.
Just stop being so awful at recognizing that the base is moving left and understand Democrats aren't going to win Republicans without losing ~70% of the next generation of Democrats.
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isn't exactly working out for Corbyn is it. The base can love you to death but you don't win an election by winning over your base. There's no need to over adjust really. Dems lost by 70k votes in three states this time, if < 0.1% of the population would have changed their minds you wouldn't have that discussion. Not to mention that three consecutive party wins in the US are very rare.
I think people are a little quick to see relations where none are, not everything is a policy issue.
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Medicare for all honestly seems like far less of a pipe dream than the current republican plan of "magically, everyone has a HSA!"
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The problem with the Democratic Party is that you guys are extremely insular and it doesn't help that the party seethes rage against all the non-urban folk. Calling people ad-hominems not only doesn't influence anyone, but it actively makes things worse - the fact we have Trump in the WH is evidence enough of that. The reason the Democrats have lost places like KY and WV and are losing the upper midwest is because the party has been taken over by environmental extremists and there is open disdain now for former elements of the party (e.g. coal/manufacturing unions, etc.). As much as I harp on how bad economic progressivism would be for the country, that's not what is burying you. The incessant social issues uber alles, if you don't agree your XYZ epithet is killing you everywhere outside your little enclaves. (In other words, if you don't abandon identity politics I can see the situation getting worse, not better)
I think the best evidence of the absolute trouble the Dems are in is through the lens of local, county, and state Governments. You guys are not even competitive with the GOP. It seems like the only things you guys focus on is the Federal level, but I suppose when every policy that is being brought forth is nationalize this, federal government that, it shouldn't be much of a surprise. It's also why your "bench" is so astonishingly weak. I mean you've pretty much lost 80% of the landmass of this country, but that doesn't matter as long as you hold the urbanites, eh? That's the most polarizing issue in the country imho. (Not so much NvS anymore, but more Urban vs Rural)
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United States44286 Posts
On March 01 2017 14:19 ticklishmusic wrote:
medicare for all, like universal basic income and many over social programs, is very popular until people realize the level of taxation needed. i guess there's the leftist version of magic math where you tax the corporations and rich, do a little adjusting for "efficiencies" and all of a sudden the numbers add up. devil's in the details, though people don't seem to appreciate that.
Not really, take a look at your 1095-C sometime. The employed population are already paying an absolute fortune for healthcare. Medicare for all wouldn't be an additional tax on top of that.
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United States44286 Posts
On March 01 2017 16:45 Wegandi wrote:
The problem with the Democratic Party is that you guys are extremely insular and it doesn't help that the party seethes rage against all the non-urban folk. Calling people ad-hominems not only doesn't influence anyone, but it actively makes things worse - the fact we have Trump in the WH is evidence enough of that. The reason the Democrats have lost places like KY and WV and are losing the upper midwest is because the party has been taken over by environmental extremists and there is open disdain now for former elements of the party (e.g. coal/manufacturing unions, etc.). As much as I harp on how bad economic progressivism would be for the country, that's not what is burying you. The incessant social issues uber alles, if you don't agree your XYZ epithet is killing you everywhere outside your little enclaves. (In other words, if you don't abandon identity politics I can see the situation getting worse, not better)
I think the best evidence of the absolute trouble the Dems are in is through the lens of local, county, and state Governments. You guys are not even competitive with the GOP. It seems like the only things you guys focus on is the Federal level, but I suppose when every policy that is being brought forth is nationalize this, federal government that, it shouldn't be much of a surprise. It's also why your "bench" is so astonishingly weak. I mean you've pretty much lost 80% of the landmass of this country, but that doesn't matter as long as you hold the urbanites, eh? That's the most polarizing issue in the country imho. (Not so much NvS anymore, but more Urban vs Rural)
Wegandi, coal is simply not sustainable without receiving a colossal government subsidy through the form of socialized cleanup of the externalities. But even if we ignore the fact that coal mining is pretty much a textbook example of the tragedy of the commons, it's not profitable by itself. Oil and gas are simply better. They're cheaper to extract, more efficient to move and more versatile for the customer. Coal is quite rightly going the way of the horse buggy, environmental extremism or not.
The government should not be paying West Virginians to fuck up their state. It's not an environmental issue, any more than it would be an environmental issue if we had a state policy of paying farm workers to club seals and pour oil into the Gulf of Mexico during the off seasons.
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The problem with the Democratic Party is that you guys are extremely insular and it doesn't help that the party seethes rage against all the non-urban folk.
The only thing, that's "seething rage against non-urban folk" is capitalism/globalism. Coal is the ugly sister of power sources, gas and oil are both cheaper and cleaner as coal, simple as that. That might be a tough cookie for "non-urban folk", but that's how the world works, so you either adapt or perish!
I'm neither democrat nor republican btw - just a plain and simple guy, who lives in the real world.
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On March 01 2017 17:55 thePunGun wrote:Show nested quote +The problem with the Democratic Party is that you guys are extremely insular and it doesn't help that the party seethes rage against all the non-urban folk. The only thing, that's "seething rage against non-urban folk" is capitalism/globalism. Coal is the ugly sister of power sources, gas and oil are both cheaper and cleaner as coal, simple as that. That might be a tough cookie for "non-urban folk", but that's how the world works, so you either adapt or perish! I'm neither democrat nor republican, just a plain and simple guy, who lives in the real world.
That's only half of it, as you can see from the post. not only has the economy "moved on," any social disagreement is characterized as hatred and bigotry. Which is why I appreciate, in theory, what the Democrats were trying to do by having the former KY gov do the response.
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EPT
