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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4773 Posts
February 13 2017 09:48 GMT
#137061
On February 13 2017 16:45 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
Brown asking for FEMA assistance for flooding and mudslides in Northern California. Up to 188k people evacuated.

also Oroville dam made it to BBC. still below NK missile test though.

must refrain from joke about state of Jefferson and northern California wanting small government.

hopefully we don't have a full dam collapse or things could get ugly.


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38952847


I think it makes sense for a population to want government help if a government approved and funded dam fails.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
a_flayer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Netherlands2826 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-13 10:17:36
February 13 2017 09:59 GMT
#137062
On February 13 2017 18:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:
America, what hast thou done?

America is just slightly more overtly showing their general attitude as it has always been.

I'm taking bets on when the US will start bombing Iran, who recently announced they'll be ditching the dollar.

I suspect the US will need a new target for their bombs once Yemen has been flattened and the shaky coalition to take out ISIS in Syria is dissolved. I'm sure some excuses can be made to justify the bombs, maybe something along the lines of nuclear weapons or missile tests being repeated endlessly on western media. A couple of anonymous CIA leaks here, a couple of anonymous CIA leaks there... Shouldn't take more than two years to get there, right?
When you came along so righteous with a new national hate, so convincing is the ardor of war and of men, it's harder to breathe than to believe you're a friend. The wars at home, the wars abroad, all soaked in blood and lies and fraud.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-13 12:05:01
February 13 2017 12:02 GMT
#137063
you do realize the cia is absolutely behind the iran deal and our confidence in intel is the backbone of enforcing that deal?

it's fun to bash on the nsa etc when you've got this bum snowden as the face of your little movement but newsflash, it is now 2017, trump is president and the intelligence community including the abilities of the NSA is an important (and shall we say, last) safeguard against full meltdown
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Amui
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada10567 Posts
February 13 2017 12:59 GMT
#137064
On February 13 2017 18:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I know some of you don't like Oliver but he is making some really frightening points today. The segment about Trump retweeting badly digested Fox News bs ten minutes after it aired or praising Infowars are quite terrifying.



America, what hast thou done?

Link doesn't work, but i watched it elsewhere. The ignorance and ego of Trump is outstanding. I actually didn't even realize it was that bad.
Porouscloud - NA LoL
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7890 Posts
February 13 2017 13:17 GMT
#137065
On February 13 2017 21:59 Amui wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2017 18:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I know some of you don't like Oliver but he is making some really frightening points today. The segment about Trump retweeting badly digested Fox News bs ten minutes after it aired or praising Infowars are quite terrifying.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=qZ0aFG-S6nU

America, what hast thou done?

Link doesn't work, but i watched it elsewhere. The ignorance and ego of Trump is outstanding. I actually didn't even realize it was that bad.

To think that half the country thought it was a great idea to give the nuclear codes to that guy is a bit more baffling every day that passes.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18828 Posts
February 13 2017 13:20 GMT
#137066
I swear, I should set up shop as someone who conducts "here's why Trump's election isn't surprising" tours. Y'all come and spend a week or two here in Central Michigan and you'll begin to see why "half the country" can be convinced of practically anything
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7890 Posts
February 13 2017 13:25 GMT
#137067
On February 13 2017 22:20 farvacola wrote:
I swear, I should set up shop as someone who conducts "here's why Trump's election isn't surprising" tours. Y'all come and spend a week or two here in Central Michigan and you'll begin to see why "half the country" can be convinced of practically anything

I travelled in rural Indiana, and i have had my share of american insanity for a lifetime. But half the fucking country?!
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18828 Posts
February 13 2017 13:28 GMT
#137068
The US has been divided along close to 50/50 lines regarding important topics for much of its history, that we're seeing a bit more of that nowadays isn't all that surprising.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7890 Posts
February 13 2017 13:29 GMT
#137069
Also that segment about handshakes is really disturbing. He systematically tries to pull the other person off balance.

I think Trump is a man who lives in a 0 sum world. You must win and winning means crushing the other guy. The idea that cooperation, soludarity, compassion or mutual trust might be productive seem completely out of his universe.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
a_flayer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Netherlands2826 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-13 13:35:51
February 13 2017 13:31 GMT
#137070
On February 13 2017 21:02 oneofthem wrote:
you do realize the cia is absolutely behind the iran deal and our confidence in intel is the backbone of enforcing that deal?

it's fun to bash on the nsa etc when you've got this bum snowden as the face of your little movement but newsflash, it is now 2017, trump is president and the intelligence community including the abilities of the NSA is an important (and shall we say, last) safeguard against full meltdown


http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/02/trump-leading-warpath-iran-170203105946707.html

As member of Congress, now-CIA chief Mike Pompeo had also advocated bombing Iran's military facilities, calling Iranian officials "serial nuclear cheaters".

"[Mattis] warned that the Iranian regime "is the single most enduring threat to stability and peace". He recalled that as commander of US troops in the Middle East, the first three questions he would ask his subordinates every morning "had to do with Iran and Iran and Iran."

"We only pray, the rest of us outside this town, that someone good is listening here," [Mattis] told the Washington crowd, as he issued an ominous prediction: "The future is going to be ghastly", and that "the next president is going to inherit a mess".

Flynn also insisted in his Head to Head interview with Al Jazeera's Mehdi Hasan, that Iran is "intent on having a nuclear weapon", despite proof to the contrary from Iran experts.

Trump seems to have a large collection of anti-Iran people surrounding him. From Pompeo to Mattis, Flynn and Bannon. Every last one of them. It's not at all inconceivable to me that they will be spinning what I said above.
When you came along so righteous with a new national hate, so convincing is the ardor of war and of men, it's harder to breathe than to believe you're a friend. The wars at home, the wars abroad, all soaked in blood and lies and fraud.
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7890 Posts
February 13 2017 13:33 GMT
#137071
On February 13 2017 22:28 farvacola wrote:
The US has been divided along close to 50/50 lines regarding important topics for much of its history, that we're seeing a bit more of that nowadays isn't all that surprising.

Fine. Electing Bush or Reagan was imo a very very very bad idea, but it's nowhere near the level of insanity required to put a guy who don't understand the concept of truth and is systematically behaving like, and by all standards, a huge douchebag to the white house.

And don't say it's Hillary or whoever else's fault. If you cast your ballot for a guy that demonstratingly lies absolutely all the time, you are doing something very wrong.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18828 Posts
February 13 2017 13:38 GMT
#137072
I don't find the culpability game following an election result very interesting, though the gymnastics folks go through in order to blame the voting decisions on anyone but the person who issued the vote have been fascinating to see unfold.

Believe me, I'm the last person to disagree with the notion that the US is really fucked up nowadays, only I must insist that you acknowledge how fucked we've been throughout our history.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
a_flayer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Netherlands2826 Posts
February 13 2017 13:38 GMT
#137073
On February 13 2017 22:33 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2017 22:28 farvacola wrote:
The US has been divided along close to 50/50 lines regarding important topics for much of its history, that we're seeing a bit more of that nowadays isn't all that surprising.

Fine. Electing Bush or Reagan was imo a very very very bad idea, but it's nowhere near the level of insanity required to put a guy who don't understand the concept of truth and is systematically behaving like, and by all standards, a huge douchebag to the white house.

And don't say it's Hillary or whoever else's fault. If you cast your ballot for a guy that demonstratingly lies absolutely all the time, you are doing something very wrong.


Ultimately, it is the fault of the people who voted for Trump - whether they were conned into it or not. Nobody else holds responsibility regarding this. Those who voted for him in the primary, and those who voted for him in the general election.
When you came along so righteous with a new national hate, so convincing is the ardor of war and of men, it's harder to breathe than to believe you're a friend. The wars at home, the wars abroad, all soaked in blood and lies and fraud.
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7890 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-13 14:00:58
February 13 2017 13:55 GMT
#137074
On February 13 2017 22:38 farvacola wrote:
I don't find the culpability game following an election result very interesting, though the gymnastics folks go through in order to blame the voting decisions on anyone but the person who issued the vote have been fascinating to see unfold.

Believe me, I'm the last person to disagree with the notion that the US is really fucked up nowadays, only I must insist that you acknowledge how fucked we've been throughout our history.

I politely disagree with that.

In France it's s great national sport to find sociological reasons for the FN vote, and it's never, ever the fault of people who vote for Le Pen. It's always the elite, globalization, expression of a just anger bla bla. You should never, ever, ever say that Le Pen voters are you know, mean, hateful people.

Le Pen is a huge fascist. If you vote for a huge fascist, whatever the circumstances, you are doing something horrendous, and it's shameful. And i think it should be said. Nobody should excuse you or find you reasons.

Oh i know. People want to "blow up the system". Well. You know who else does the worst as a form of protest? Terrorists.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18828 Posts
February 13 2017 13:58 GMT
#137075
I don't think we disagree lol, I get into arguments with folks all the time as to how the Constitution is an inherently racist document, and I've been arguing in favor of "call a spade a spade" on these boards for some time now
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18004 Posts
February 13 2017 14:04 GMT
#137076
On February 13 2017 22:58 farvacola wrote:
I don't think we disagree lol, I get into arguments with folks all the time as to how the Constitution is an inherently racist document, and I've been arguing in favor of "call a spade a spade" on these boards for some time now

This sounds like fun. But what if it looks like a spade, and quacks like a spade, but insists it is actually a bicycle when you talk to it, and furthermore insists that it is insulting to call it a spade, and calling perfectly innocent bicycles spades just because they look and quack like them, is precisely the reason why we can't have useful discussions on the topic, and people vote for Trump in frustration, because he finally gives voice to all these frustrated bicycles.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13956 Posts
February 13 2017 14:11 GMT
#137077
The problem comes with moral progression and relativity throughout history. The founding fathers didn't think black people or native americans were people. Not even beginning on the hypocrisy of "all men are created equal" without women or even not reasonably rich people for the age being able to vote. Or even before andrew Jackson the only people that it was okay to run for president.

But you have to forgive them of these things beacuse it wasn't what the morals of the age were. If we're ever going to get better we have to admit we're capable of getting somewhere.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7890 Posts
February 13 2017 14:12 GMT
#137078
Btw, I remember when i was a kid, that voting Le Pen was an extremely shameful thing to do in most people's mind. It basically made you a bad person.

Then appeared the idea that you really shouldn't say bad things about Le Pen voters and now it's totally ok to support fascism. Surprise, Le Pen is also at 25%.

This PC crap about not simply calling a FN voter a fascist is a strategic mistake imo.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
February 13 2017 14:16 GMT
#137079
On February 13 2017 23:12 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Btw, I remember when i was a kid, that voting Le Pen was an extremely shameful thing to do in most people's mind. It basically made you a bad person.

Then appeared the idea that you really shouldn't say bad things about Le Pen voters and now it's totally ok to support fascism. Surprise, Le Pen is also at 25%.

This PC crap about not simply calling a FN voter a fascist is a strategic mistake imo.

If you think that 20-25% of the French population is fascist you're simply deluded... but we should take this conversation to the European thread.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
February 13 2017 14:32 GMT
#137080
On February 13 2017 23:12 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Btw, I remember when i was a kid, that voting Le Pen was an extremely shameful thing to do in most people's mind. It basically made you a bad person.

Then appeared the idea that you really shouldn't say bad things about Le Pen voters and now it's totally ok to support fascism. Surprise, Le Pen is also at 25%.

This PC crap about not simply calling a FN voter a fascist is a strategic mistake imo.


the paradox of tolerance:

+ Show Spoiler +
The so-called paradox of freedom is the argument that freedom in the sense of absence of any constraining control must lead to very great restraint, since it makes the bully free to enslave the meek. The idea is, in a slightly different form, and with very different tendency, clearly expressed in Plato.

Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.
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