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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 65
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On January 07 2013 05:06 sam!zdat wrote: are you talking to me, oneofthem? So you don't know either, ok. This is just a non-answer and market worship. No, I'm simply stating that there is no universal answer. I can't tell everyone who loses their job to retrain as a dentist... it might work for some, but not all! | ||
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TotalBalanceSC2
Canada475 Posts
On January 07 2013 05:36 sam!zdat wrote: Babylon What is so special about an ancient Mesopotamian city? | ||
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TheFrankOne
United States667 Posts
On January 07 2013 05:00 oneofthem wrote: there is no vast consciously designed capital class conspiracy at least when it comes to the labor market. There are inherent frictions in labor markets that effect employees more than employers which allows employers to pay slightly below the marginal product of labor. Edit: Mostly in low skill and low wage markets. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
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farvacola
United States18832 Posts
On January 07 2013 05:39 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote: What is so special about an ancient Mesopotamian city? Presumably it has something to do with Mammon. Out of curiosity, do you personally feel at all motivated to "change the world", as cliche as that sounds? | ||
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HunterX11
United States1048 Posts
On January 07 2013 05:00 oneofthem wrote: there is no vast consciously designed capital class conspiracy at least when it comes to the labor market. There doesn't need to be one. To quote Karl Marx: We rarely hear, it has been said, of the combinations of masters, though frequently of those of workmen. But whoever imagines, upon this account, that masters rarely combine, is as ignorant of the world as of the subject. Masters are always and everywhere in a sort of tacit, but constant and uniform combination, not to raise the wages of labour above their actual rate. To violate this combination is everywhere a most unpopular action, and a sort of reproach to a master among his neighbours and equals. We seldom, indeed, hear of this combination, because it is the usual, and one may say, the natural state of things, which nobody ever hears of. Masters, too, sometimes enter into particular combinations to sink the wages of labour even below this rate. These are always conducted with the utmost silence and secrecy, till the moment of execution, and when the workmen yield, as they sometimes do, without resistance, though severely felt by them, they are never heard of by other people. Such combinations, however, are frequently resisted by a contrary defensive combination of the workmen; who sometimes too, without any provocation of this kind, combine of their own accord to raise the price of their labour. Whoops, that was actually Adam Smith! | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
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HunterX11
United States1048 Posts
On January 07 2013 04:44 Souma wrote: Is that really the "worst case scenario?" Seems like a normal scenario to me. It's pretty bad for the people who have been made redundant if society decides that that's just tough luck for them. | ||
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TotalBalanceSC2
Canada475 Posts
On January 07 2013 05:43 farvacola wrote: Presumably it has something to do with Mammon. Out of curiosity, do you personally feel at all motivated to "change the world", as cliche as that sounds? Change the world in what way might I ask? I would be perfectly happy promoting social tolerance and human rights if that is what you mean. If you are talking about starting a revolution and burning the system to the ground, not so much. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On January 07 2013 05:40 sam!zdat wrote: Right, Johnny, but I'm over here worrying about large-scale historical processes and the impact of technological change on labor patterns, cultural conceptions of work, and so on, and you just aren't answering that question. You're just offering some platitudes about "well people will decide what's best for them" and I'm losing sleep over technological unemployment and ecological catastrophe. I imagine there will be a "revolution" of sorts one day where getting a job isn't seen as the final step to being a contributor to society, which will occur when there simply aren't enough jobs to do or global production greatly outpaces global consumption. It could happen late in our life time, maybe, but it requires some pretty radical improvements, like advanced AI and "free" energy. | ||
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farvacola
United States18832 Posts
On January 07 2013 05:49 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote: Change the world in what way might I ask? I would be perfectly happy promoting social tolerance and human rights if that is what you mean. If you are talking about starting a revolution and burning the system to the ground, not so much. Well, my personal brand of Marxist ideology is somewhat tempered in the name of pragmatics, so that you seek to do good with the tools of evil (money) gets a thumbs up from me. Not everyone enjoys subversion  | ||
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TotalBalanceSC2
Canada475 Posts
On January 07 2013 05:56 farvacola wrote: Well, my personal brand of Marxist ideology is somewhat tempered in the name of pragmatics, so that you seek to do good with the tools of evil (money;)) gets a thumbs up from me. Not everyone enjoys subversion I like to figure I can be somewhat like Superman, do good with the power you have sort of thing. He is probably one of my biggest idols (albeit fictional). | ||
Souma
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On January 07 2013 05:59 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote: I like to figure I can be somewhat like Superman, do good with the power you have sort of thing. He is probably one of my biggest idols (albeit fictional). That's so adorable. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
On January 07 2013 05:51 aksfjh wrote: I imagine there will be a "revolution" of sorts one day where getting a job isn't seen as the final step to being a contributor to society, which will occur when there simply aren't enough jobs to do or global production greatly outpaces global consumption. It could happen late in our life time, maybe, but it requires some pretty radical improvements, like advanced AI and "free" energy. Nah, you could do it now, if everyone just realized that most of what everyone does is totally pointless at best. Most of our consumption is pointless - we produce artificial demand in order to maintain the system. c.f. No Logo by Naomi Klein for a nice illustration of this phenomenon. | ||
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TheFrankOne
United States667 Posts
On January 07 2013 04:42 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote: I personally think the US needs to lower its corporate tax rates, they are a little high compared to other countries at the moment. Even Jamie Dimon says he would be willing to pay higher income taxes if America would lower the corporate rate. http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/10/us-jpmorgan-dimon-taxes-idUSBRE8991DI20121010 The problem isn't that our corporate tax rate is too high. It's that our tax code is full of holes and preferences on the personal and the corporate level. "However, no major company really pays the nominal rate—just as no one walks into a car dealership expecting to pay sticker price. Big companies enjoy a huge buffet of credits, shelters, deductions, and other preferences that reduce their rate to an average of 13 percent. Many profitable companies pay no federal income tax at all. Regardless of our nominal rate, our real corporate tax rate is among the lowest. Further cuts cannot stimulate growth." http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/economic-intelligence/2012/04/04/the-truth-about-corporate-tax-rates We need corporate tax reform badly. | ||
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TotalBalanceSC2
Canada475 Posts
I have the slight feeling I am being made fun of..... Then again, it is rather difficult to determine the tone intended through the internet. | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On January 07 2013 05:40 sam!zdat wrote: Right, Johnny, but I'm over here worrying about large-scale historical processes and the impact of technological change on labor patterns, cultural conceptions of work, and so on, and you just aren't answering that question. You're just offering some platitudes about "well people will decide what's best for them" and I'm losing sleep over technological unemployment and ecological catastrophe. Technological unemployment - if technology becomes so awesome that 'there's not enough work to go around' then another thing must also be true - shit is cheap. If that's the case then entitlements become cheap for the government to pay for and so there's less and less complaint about people not working. Ecological catastrophe - there's some legitimate worry here. But technology is making good progress here as well. Productive farms mean that forests can regrow (already happened in the advanced world). Alternative energy is making progress every year to reach grid parity. We're in for a pretty big change once that happens. | ||
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TotalBalanceSC2
Canada475 Posts
On January 07 2013 06:05 TheFrankOne wrote: The problem isn't that our corporate tax rate is too high. It's that our tax code is full of holes and preferences on the personal and the corporate level. "However, no major company really pays the nominal rate—just as no one walks into a car dealership expecting to pay sticker price. Big companies enjoy a huge buffet of credits, shelters, deductions, and other preferences that reduce their rate to an average of 13 percent. Many profitable companies pay no federal income tax at all. Regardless of our nominal rate, our real corporate tax rate is among the lowest. Further cuts cannot stimulate growth." http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/economic-intelligence/2012/04/04/the-truth-about-corporate-tax-rates We need corporate tax reform badly. This seems to indicate that a lot of large corporations don't pay that little. I do not know for what year this article is for though: http://xfinity.comcast.net/slideshow/finance-topcompanytaxes/jpmorgan-chase/ I know tech companies like Google though are notoriously good at avoiding taxes. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
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