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On November 28 2016 07:29 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 07:20 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 28 2016 07:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Well if I listen to a candidate and I start realizing that he is just taking me for an idiot and stating what completely false fact after another, I'll have a problem. I don't know you. A large majority of the American public already believes this. They have low trust in the integrity of the government and their representatives' commitment to acting for the public good. Politicians are generally disparaged as self-serving and egotistical, only looking to advance themselves. This is the narrative that both Democrats and Republicans have used during election time: the opponent is untrustworthy, privileged, a liar, etc. As a corollary, politicians are not expected to be truthful in the traditional sense. They are expected to be stand-ins for what Lasch called political narcissism. They represent the personal and social leanings of the individual and incite personal connection rather than sound judgment. On November 28 2016 07:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:
And I think (or thought) that most people would. If anything out of self respect. Most people's version of truth is "whatever corresponds to my current beliefs". On November 28 2016 07:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Truth is what democracy is based upon. Remove it and it collapses. Of course people and politicians compromise with it. But here we have a complete disconnection, and it looks like people like biology major is totally ok with that. Well, Leo Strauss would argue democracy is based on a small elite cabal with access to esoteric truth leading the dumb cows who don't know any better. Or you could look towards Sheldon Wolin, who claims our country is already moving towards a form of inverted totalitarianism. Your description of democracy's foundations is perhaps the most optimistic possible. You should probably look at what Vladislav Surkov has done under Putin's regime to understand why Trump's self-contradiction has meant nothing to his base. Well, maybe I'm not that cynical yet, and maybe I have had more faith in the American people and democracy than in post soviet russians. Maybe I was wrong. But all of that is very, very, very sad and seriously worrying. I think it is time for all of us to rethink a big number of things. And wonder if really we don't deserve better than a twitter troll as the leader of the free world (judging from the reaction from the usual suspects, clearly the answer is no).
If there were a candidate with integrity, a solid temperament and was actually willing to address the issues most american care about in a direct no bs manner, sure I'd rather have that person. But for now, I'd gladly settle for Trump with his temperament/honesty issues, he's miles ahead of the pack. The only thing I am really not happy about this election is the racist elements who feel empowered by his win, and I hope they remain irrelevant in the upcoming 4-8 years.
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On November 28 2016 07:24 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 07:15 xDaunt wrote:
I quite enjoy Trump's constant trolling of the left. I hope he keeps it up. And the genius with his latest tweet is that it forces another uncomfortable conversation for the left on voter ID laws and illegal immigration. These are winning issues for Trump, and he knows it. I think you nailed it. You've elected a twitter troll that has a twitter troll respect for people (in the first place the people who voted for him) and the truth in general. And you think that's great. The sad thing is that you don't realize you are the one getting trolled. You are the one who elected him on absolute non sense, on erratic and completely ridiculous promises. It is you he is literally shitting on. But beside that, it's beautiful to see how much you believe in a mature democratic discussion and debate, if you believe that trolling at a Youtube forum level is a great way to advance your points at a national level.
If I and the other Trump supporters get what we want, is the joke really on us?
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On November 28 2016 07:19 biology]major wrote:
I love his lack of nuanced positions and weak relationships with reality, because that's what it takes to open a dialogue these days due to politicians being too timid to tackle the big issues. Ban muslims - people start talking about how radical elements of islam can be a problem instead of brushing it under the rug. Build a wall - hm maybe immigration control is actually something the people care about rather than just giving lip service every cycle and saying "comprehensive immigration reform". Attacking China and mexico for ripping us off on trade deals etc etc. Now with that tweet you referenced Biff, I hope we can actually find out how many people illegally voted, even in nonconsequential places like LA and SF and ultimately it will enter the mainstream dialogue.
That's what the media deserves at this point. They had a chance to call Romney a principled moderate, but he was also a racist, sexist bigot just like Trump. Now they get an unabashed liar/exaggerator to call their bluff. If the left could have an honest conversation on immigration or voter identification, they're fine. But they've left the American people's views on ID laws and immigration. So this is the price paid.
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Hurrah for the 2nd Amendment!
Gun store owners told NBC News that since November 8 they're seeing up to four times as many black and minority customers — and black gun groups are reporting double the normal number of attendees at their meetings since the election.
Michael Cargill, the owner of Central Texas Gun Works in Austin, told NBC News he had given up on advertising to African-Americans — but now he's seeing as many as 20 a month, and they're filling up his training classes; along with Muslim, Hispanic, and LGBT patrons with heightened worries about being targeted.
Black gun owner groups are seeing an uptick too, led by African-American women. They report receiving an increased number of emails from across the country from concerned minorities looking to learn more about gun safety, training, and firearm access.
Philip Smith, founder of the 14,000-member National African American Gun Association said his members are buying up every kind of gun, from Glock handguns to AR-15 rifles to AK-47 semi-automatic weapons — though most first-time buyers gravitate toward a nine-millimeter pistol or .38 revolver. He said that twice the usual attendees have RSVP'd for the next meeting of the Georgia chapter, which he heads.
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A victory for the second amendment people, to be sure.
Of course I'm sure the real explanation is that they fear for their life and want to be armed in case of violence. I don't think it's a problem to have more trained gun owners, not at all.
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On November 28 2016 07:44 LegalLord wrote:
A victory for the second amendment people, to be sure.
Somehow I doubt they'll see it that way, though it could finally lead to some decent gun laws.
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United States15275 Posts
On November 28 2016 07:29 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Well, maybe I'm not that cynical yet, and maybe I have had more faith in the American people and democracy than in post soviet russians. Maybe I was wrong.
Well, the American people need to overcome their cynicism and believe democracy is a working system instead of a symbolic one. But what reasons do they have when they are constantly reminded, in the media and their personal dealings, how little power they really have? I'd argue the uproar over Trump is an extension of that. Many of his proposals would be impractical and a pain in the ass to get passed. But people want to believe the president is some sort of benevolent dictator who can enact policies at will and solve systemic issues with a wave of the hand. Trump is just the wrong guy for the job in their view.
I wasn't drawing a connection between the U.S. and Russia in terms of government. Surkov's manipulation of politics as theater has clear parallels in this election, just not as extreme or bewildering.
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On November 28 2016 07:37 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 07:19 biology]major wrote:
I love his lack of nuanced positions and weak relationships with reality, because that's what it takes to open a dialogue these days due to politicians being too timid to tackle the big issues. Ban muslims - people start talking about how radical elements of islam can be a problem instead of brushing it under the rug. Build a wall - hm maybe immigration control is actually something the people care about rather than just giving lip service every cycle and saying "comprehensive immigration reform". Attacking China and mexico for ripping us off on trade deals etc etc. Now with that tweet you referenced Biff, I hope we can actually find out how many people illegally voted, even in nonconsequential places like LA and SF and ultimately it will enter the mainstream dialogue.
That's what the media deserves at this point. They had a chance to call Romney a principled moderate, but he was also a racist, sexist bigot just like Trump. Now they get an unabashed liar/exaggerator to call their bluff. If the left could have an honest conversation on immigration or voter identification, they're fine. But they've left the American people's views on ID laws and immigration. So this is the price paid.
Exactly. This is why Trump is so much fun. The media, democrats, and the establish blew their loads slandering all of our other politicians, so now Trump is free to have his way with all of the leftists. Trump may end up being an utter failure of a politician, but the daily humiliation that he is inflicting upon the left is worth the price of admission. Even my most ardent #nevertrump friends have had to concede as such. Trump is a "fuck you" of biblical proportions, and I am enjoying it every day.
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Yep, civil war is the only legitimate solution to a society that does not recognize the legitimacy of any kind of collective institution.
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Trump is not trolling anyone in 7D chess, he's just speaking what he actually believes - especially when, as with his latest tweet, it's a matter of personal pride and pettiness. See his subsequent tweets - he's just trying to excuse the fact that he didn't win the popular vote. Any public perception that he didn't "win" the election in a sense is damaging to him. He's only concerned with a petty subject here, and he'll say whatever it takes to suit that petty narrative (including that illegal voters are the only reason for the popular vote discrepancy).
If Trump starts saying petty things to foreign countries we'll know for sure he was never trolling anyone in a genius manner.
For now though, we have to cross our fingers.
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Norway28892 Posts
On November 28 2016 07:46 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 07:37 Danglars wrote:On November 28 2016 07:19 biology]major wrote:
I love his lack of nuanced positions and weak relationships with reality, because that's what it takes to open a dialogue these days due to politicians being too timid to tackle the big issues. Ban muslims - people start talking about how radical elements of islam can be a problem instead of brushing it under the rug. Build a wall - hm maybe immigration control is actually something the people care about rather than just giving lip service every cycle and saying "comprehensive immigration reform". Attacking China and mexico for ripping us off on trade deals etc etc. Now with that tweet you referenced Biff, I hope we can actually find out how many people illegally voted, even in nonconsequential places like LA and SF and ultimately it will enter the mainstream dialogue.
That's what the media deserves at this point. They had a chance to call Romney a principled moderate, but he was also a racist, sexist bigot just like Trump. Now they get an unabashed liar/exaggerator to call their bluff. If the left could have an honest conversation on immigration or voter identification, they're fine. But they've left the American people's views on ID laws and immigration. So this is the price paid. Exactly. This is why Trump is so much fun. The media, democrats, and the establish blew their loads slandering all of our other politicians, so now Trump is free to have his way with all of the leftists. Trump may end up being an utter failure of a politician, but the daily humiliation that he is inflicting upon the left is worth the price of admission. Even my most ardent #nevertrump friends have had to concede as such. Trump is a "fuck you" of biblical proportions, and I am enjoying it every day.
It's nice that you embrace your pettiness. Congrats on your victory I guess..
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On November 28 2016 07:46 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 07:37 Danglars wrote:On November 28 2016 07:19 biology]major wrote:
I love his lack of nuanced positions and weak relationships with reality, because that's what it takes to open a dialogue these days due to politicians being too timid to tackle the big issues. Ban muslims - people start talking about how radical elements of islam can be a problem instead of brushing it under the rug. Build a wall - hm maybe immigration control is actually something the people care about rather than just giving lip service every cycle and saying "comprehensive immigration reform". Attacking China and mexico for ripping us off on trade deals etc etc. Now with that tweet you referenced Biff, I hope we can actually find out how many people illegally voted, even in nonconsequential places like LA and SF and ultimately it will enter the mainstream dialogue.
That's what the media deserves at this point. They had a chance to call Romney a principled moderate, but he was also a racist, sexist bigot just like Trump. Now they get an unabashed liar/exaggerator to call their bluff. If the left could have an honest conversation on immigration or voter identification, they're fine. But they've left the American people's views on ID laws and immigration. So this is the price paid. Exactly. This is why Trump is so much fun. The media, democrats, and the establish blew their loads slandering all of our other politicians, so now Trump is free to have his way with all of the leftists. Trump may end up being an utter failure of a politician, but the daily humiliation that he is inflicting upon the left is worth the price of admission. Even my most ardent #nevertrump friends have had to concede as such. Trump is a "fuck you" of biblical proportions, and I am enjoying it every day.
Remember this sentiment when and if the winds shift back to Trump being an "utter failure", and it being a highly consequential blunder.
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On November 28 2016 07:29 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 07:26 ChristianS wrote:On November 28 2016 06:35 LegalLord wrote:
We lost before the General even began. I don't see how you can see the outcome of this election as having been anything other than highly contingent. What do you mean?
I mean that anyone saying "of course Hillary lost" or some variation of insisting that Donald Trump winning was an inevitability lived through a different election than I did. Up to the last minute it could have gone either way, we might have never had a closer election than this (maybe 2000?).
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What's the point of the popular vote considering your voting system ? Don't you know it has no value at all ? None whatsoever.
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On November 28 2016 07:33 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 07:29 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 28 2016 07:20 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 28 2016 07:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Well if I listen to a candidate and I start realizing that he is just taking me for an idiot and stating what completely false fact after another, I'll have a problem. I don't know you. A large majority of the American public already believes this. They have low trust in the integrity of the government and their representatives' commitment to acting for the public good. Politicians are generally disparaged as self-serving and egotistical, only looking to advance themselves. This is the narrative that both Democrats and Republicans have used during election time: the opponent is untrustworthy, privileged, a liar, etc. As a corollary, politicians are not expected to be truthful in the traditional sense. They are expected to be stand-ins for what Lasch called political narcissism. They represent the personal and social leanings of the individual and incite personal connection rather than sound judgment. On November 28 2016 07:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:
And I think (or thought) that most people would. If anything out of self respect. Most people's version of truth is "whatever corresponds to my current beliefs". On November 28 2016 07:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Truth is what democracy is based upon. Remove it and it collapses. Of course people and politicians compromise with it. But here we have a complete disconnection, and it looks like people like biology major is totally ok with that. Well, Leo Strauss would argue democracy is based on a small elite cabal with access to esoteric truth leading the dumb cows who don't know any better. Or you could look towards Sheldon Wolin, who claims our country is already moving towards a form of inverted totalitarianism. Your description of democracy's foundations is perhaps the most optimistic possible. You should probably look at what Vladislav Surkov has done under Putin's regime to understand why Trump's self-contradiction has meant nothing to his base. Well, maybe I'm not that cynical yet, and maybe I have had more faith in the American people and democracy than in post soviet russians. Maybe I was wrong. But all of that is very, very, very sad and seriously worrying. I think it is time for all of us to rethink a big number of things. And wonder if really we don't deserve better than a twitter troll as the leader of the free world (judging from the reaction from the usual suspects, clearly the answer is no). If there were a candidate with integrity, a solid temperament and was actually willing to address the issues most american care about in a direct no bs manner, sure I'd rather have that person. But for now, I'd gladly settle for Trump with his temperament/honesty issues, he's miles ahead of the pack. The only thing I am really not happy about this election is the racist elements who feel empowered by his win, and I hope they remain irrelevant in the upcoming 4-8 years.
what if the most effective method to address an issue involves a certain amount of bs?
also, trump isn't really addressing them at all in a no bs manner, but rather a maximal bs manner.
I'd be willing to use a no bs manner if enough people request it, but that kind of brutal honesty doesn't get elected, which is why i'm a terrible politician. Also, bs is often an important social grease; and using non-bs has to be used sparingly, and only in the right situations.
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On November 28 2016 07:53 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 07:29 LegalLord wrote:On November 28 2016 07:26 ChristianS wrote:On November 28 2016 06:35 LegalLord wrote:
We lost before the General even began. I don't see how you can see the outcome of this election as having been anything other than highly contingent. What do you mean? I mean that anyone saying "of course Hillary lost" or some variation of insisting that Donald Trump winning was an inevitability lived through a different election than I did. Up to the last minute it could have gone either way, we might have never had a closer election than this (maybe 2000?).
We the US public lost because we had to choose between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, two candidates who are very much so not qualified for the office of president in the eyes of many.
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On November 28 2016 07:51 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 07:46 xDaunt wrote:On November 28 2016 07:37 Danglars wrote:On November 28 2016 07:19 biology]major wrote:
I love his lack of nuanced positions and weak relationships with reality, because that's what it takes to open a dialogue these days due to politicians being too timid to tackle the big issues. Ban muslims - people start talking about how radical elements of islam can be a problem instead of brushing it under the rug. Build a wall - hm maybe immigration control is actually something the people care about rather than just giving lip service every cycle and saying "comprehensive immigration reform". Attacking China and mexico for ripping us off on trade deals etc etc. Now with that tweet you referenced Biff, I hope we can actually find out how many people illegally voted, even in nonconsequential places like LA and SF and ultimately it will enter the mainstream dialogue.
That's what the media deserves at this point. They had a chance to call Romney a principled moderate, but he was also a racist, sexist bigot just like Trump. Now they get an unabashed liar/exaggerator to call their bluff. If the left could have an honest conversation on immigration or voter identification, they're fine. But they've left the American people's views on ID laws and immigration. So this is the price paid. Exactly. This is why Trump is so much fun. The media, democrats, and the establish blew their loads slandering all of our other politicians, so now Trump is free to have his way with all of the leftists. Trump may end up being an utter failure of a politician, but the daily humiliation that he is inflicting upon the left is worth the price of admission. Even my most ardent #nevertrump friends have had to concede as such. Trump is a "fuck you" of biblical proportions, and I am enjoying it every day. It's nice that you embrace your pettiness. Congrats on your victory I guess..
I'll freely acknowledge the pettiness of the sentiment expressed in my post. Will you acknowledge that the left's conduct gave rise to it?
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On November 28 2016 07:53 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 07:29 LegalLord wrote:On November 28 2016 07:26 ChristianS wrote:On November 28 2016 06:35 LegalLord wrote:
We lost before the General even began. I don't see how you can see the outcome of this election as having been anything other than highly contingent. What do you mean? I mean that anyone saying "of course Hillary lost" or some variation of insisting that Donald Trump winning was an inevitability lived through a different election than I did. Up to the last minute it could have gone either way, we might have never had a closer election than this (maybe 2000?).
I'm guessing legallord meant that the outcome was a loss for the american people by the general since either outcome was terrible, albeit each in a different way.
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United States15275 Posts
On November 28 2016 07:57 zlefin wrote:
I'd be willing to use a no bs manner if enough people request it, but that kind of brutal honesty doesn't get elected, which is why i'm a terrible politician. Also, bs is often an important social grease; and using non-bs has to be used sparingly, and only in the right situations.
The trick is dressing up no-BS substance in full-BS technique. Then you get to be honest and a great rhetorician!
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On November 28 2016 07:57 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 07:51 Liquid`Drone wrote:On November 28 2016 07:46 xDaunt wrote:On November 28 2016 07:37 Danglars wrote:On November 28 2016 07:19 biology]major wrote:
I love his lack of nuanced positions and weak relationships with reality, because that's what it takes to open a dialogue these days due to politicians being too timid to tackle the big issues. Ban muslims - people start talking about how radical elements of islam can be a problem instead of brushing it under the rug. Build a wall - hm maybe immigration control is actually something the people care about rather than just giving lip service every cycle and saying "comprehensive immigration reform". Attacking China and mexico for ripping us off on trade deals etc etc. Now with that tweet you referenced Biff, I hope we can actually find out how many people illegally voted, even in nonconsequential places like LA and SF and ultimately it will enter the mainstream dialogue.
That's what the media deserves at this point. They had a chance to call Romney a principled moderate, but he was also a racist, sexist bigot just like Trump. Now they get an unabashed liar/exaggerator to call their bluff. If the left could have an honest conversation on immigration or voter identification, they're fine. But they've left the American people's views on ID laws and immigration. So this is the price paid. Exactly. This is why Trump is so much fun. The media, democrats, and the establish blew their loads slandering all of our other politicians, so now Trump is free to have his way with all of the leftists. Trump may end up being an utter failure of a politician, but the daily humiliation that he is inflicting upon the left is worth the price of admission. Even my most ardent #nevertrump friends have had to concede as such. Trump is a "fuck you" of biblical proportions, and I am enjoying it every day. It's nice that you embrace your pettiness. Congrats on your victory I guess.. I'll freely acknowledge the pettiness of the sentiment expressed in my post. Will you acknowledge that the left's conduct gave rise to it?
I will acknowledge that part of it is due to the action of certain significant portions of the left; but not the left as a whole, as other even larger portions of the left did not give rise to it. Also that the conduct of some (again a minority) on the right also contributed to its rise.
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EPT
