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On November 28 2016 07:02 zlefin wrote:
biff -> a lot of people, even those who voted for him, think trump is a liar. They just supported him anyways for various reasons.
and Koyre is overoptimistic in his assessment of the voters in democracies. Most people everywhere in general aren't that discerning.
and people don't care that much for rationality or truth.
bio -> I don't see how that counters biff's point about their being a massive difference between the degree/amount of truth from trump vs clinton.
To be honest my problem is not a question of degree or amount. Clinton could be a bigger liar than Trump she would try to sound coherent. Because if her troop realized she lies, they would be pissed. Here we have a qualitative difference, which is that Trump's bullshit is fact checkable in a split second. He talks non sense, says completely crazy stuff and people nod and applaud.
Again, I quoted it already, sorry to repost it of you have seen it already, but one has to read Frankfurt:
https://www.stoa.org.uk/topics/bullshit/pdf/on-bullshit.pdf
"It is impossible for someone to lie unless he thinks he knows the truth. Producing bullshit requires no such conviction. A person who lies is thereby responding to the truth, and he is to that extent respectful of it. When an honest man speaks, he says only what he believes to be true; and for the liar, it is correspondingly indispensable that he considers his statements to be false. For the bullshitter, however, all these bets are off: he is neither on the side of the true nor on the side of the false. His eye is not on the facts at all, as the eyes of the honest man and of the liar are, except insofar as they may be pertinent to his interest in getting away with what he says. He does not care whether the things he says describe reality correctly. He just picks them out, or makes them up, to suit his purpose."
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On November 28 2016 06:51 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 06:35 LegalLord wrote:On November 28 2016 06:25 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I think we have to start thinking very hard about the fact that half an advance country consider that making stuff up all the time, disregarding the facts and lying like at a machinegun rate is perfectly ok. I mean, what does that say about the US democracy? We also have to consider that the other side advanced a serial liar with a long history of dirty dealings who has lower favorability than any candidate in history other than her opponent. And she made the case for herself against her primary opponent by using money, establishment support, and making the argument that they have to nominate her because she is the electable one who will win the general. Both sides kind of really sucked. One side may be worse than the other but frankly what Clinton represents disgusts me every bit as much as what Trump does and what he intends to do. We lost before the General even began. Excuse me, you can dislike Clinton very much, but on the truth department you can't seriously compare her to Trump. I mean, the thing is that if Clinton had said any of what Trump said people would have been saying "WTF she is nuts and doesn't know anything" and it would have been a scandal. But in Trump case people don't give a crap, because he is a bullshit artist, and that he can very well say that the unemployment is 40% or that crime is skyrocketing in the whole country, it doesn't matter. The fact that a president elect can say ANYTHING and that it's fine with people is new, and terrifying. That's all I'm saying.
Trump is a pathological liar and just about everyone has accepted that by now. Even most of his supporters. What is true, however, is that if you want to talk about how bad Trump is, then you had better do so in the context of acknowledging why people might have chosen a guy like that. And that context is Hillary Clinton. She is the epitome of everything a lot of people despise about business as usual, and damn did she let that opinion of her stick.
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On November 28 2016 07:06 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 06:58 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 28 2016 06:53 biology]major wrote:On November 28 2016 06:51 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 28 2016 06:35 LegalLord wrote:On November 28 2016 06:25 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I think we have to start thinking very hard about the fact that half an advance country consider that making stuff up all the time, disregarding the facts and lying like at a machinegun rate is perfectly ok. I mean, what does that say about the US democracy? We also have to consider that the other side advanced a serial liar with a long history of dirty dealings who has lower favorability than any candidate in history other than her opponent. And she made the case for herself against her primary opponent by using money, establishment support, and making the argument that they have to nominate her because she is the electable one who will win the general. Both sides kind of really sucked. One side may be worse than the other but frankly what Clinton represents disgusts me every bit as much as what Trump does and what he intends to do. We lost before the General even began. Excuse me, you can dislike Clinton very much, but on the truth department you can't seriously compare her to Trump. I mean, the thing is that if Clinton had said any of what Trump said people would have been saying "WTF she is nuts and doesn't know anything" and it would have been a scandal. But in Trump case people don't give a crap, because he is a bullshit artist, and that he can very well say that the unemployment is 40% or that crime is skyrocketing in the whole country, it doesn't matter. The fact that a president elect can say ANYTHING and that it's fine with people is new, and terrifying. That's all I'm saying. Dude, she compared herself to abraham lincoln when asked about her public and private positions lol. Honesty is not her strong suit, in fact it was her downfall. Man, are you even aware of the number of false statements Trump has made during his campaign? We talk about 30 every single day. I'm not talking about one dumb or false thing Trump said. Yes Hillary has lied here and there, yes all politicians, and in fact everyone does. But that's REALLY not the point, because I'm talking about a guy who lie or make stuff up all the fucking time and just talk crazy. Like, bat shit crazy. http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/https://www.indy100.com/article/this-journalist-is-listing-all-the-lies-donald-trump-tells-every-day-7322776I think it's absolutely amazing that you don't see how that's a problem. And really if most people don't think it's a problem, I think we, the humanity, are fucked, and I mean it. Scrutinizing Trump's tweets the way you would scrutinize a politician's is a bit silly, he shit posts on the regular and it isn't going to change. I like how you are interpreting Trump's victory as a failure of the american people, instead of what it actually is: a failure of the establishment and his opposition.
Mate, I'm not scrutinizing anything. I just find it fucking amazing that you are ok with your president talking crazy all the time.
Trump is a failure of the american people, and the american democracy. Including what you call the establishment. When you elect a guy who talk completely erratically and makes stuff up all the time only to be applauded, you should start thinking something has gone very, very, very wrong.
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On November 28 2016 07:06 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 06:58 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 28 2016 06:53 biology]major wrote:On November 28 2016 06:51 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 28 2016 06:35 LegalLord wrote:On November 28 2016 06:25 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I think we have to start thinking very hard about the fact that half an advance country consider that making stuff up all the time, disregarding the facts and lying like at a machinegun rate is perfectly ok. I mean, what does that say about the US democracy? We also have to consider that the other side advanced a serial liar with a long history of dirty dealings who has lower favorability than any candidate in history other than her opponent. And she made the case for herself against her primary opponent by using money, establishment support, and making the argument that they have to nominate her because she is the electable one who will win the general. Both sides kind of really sucked. One side may be worse than the other but frankly what Clinton represents disgusts me every bit as much as what Trump does and what he intends to do. We lost before the General even began. Excuse me, you can dislike Clinton very much, but on the truth department you can't seriously compare her to Trump. I mean, the thing is that if Clinton had said any of what Trump said people would have been saying "WTF she is nuts and doesn't know anything" and it would have been a scandal. But in Trump case people don't give a crap, because he is a bullshit artist, and that he can very well say that the unemployment is 40% or that crime is skyrocketing in the whole country, it doesn't matter. The fact that a president elect can say ANYTHING and that it's fine with people is new, and terrifying. That's all I'm saying. Dude, she compared herself to abraham lincoln when asked about her public and private positions lol. Honesty is not her strong suit, in fact it was her downfall. Man, are you even aware of the number of false statements Trump has made during his campaign? We talk about 30 every single day. I'm not talking about one dumb or false thing Trump said. Yes Hillary has lied here and there, yes all politicians, and in fact everyone does. But that's REALLY not the point, because I'm talking about a guy who lie or make stuff up all the fucking time and just talk crazy. Like, bat shit crazy. http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/https://www.indy100.com/article/this-journalist-is-listing-all-the-lies-donald-trump-tells-every-day-7322776I think it's absolutely amazing that you don't see how that's a problem. And really if most people don't think it's a problem, I think we, the humanity, are fucked, and I mean it. Scrutinizing Trump's tweets the way you would scrutinize a politician's is a bit silly, he shit posts on the regular and it isn't going to change. I like how you are interpreting Trump's victory as a failure of the american people, instead of what it actually is: a failure of the establishment and his opposition.
why can't it be both?
there's no reason to assign failure to only one when many may share in it.
Also, Trump IS a politician now, by definition. He's also the soon to be leader of the free world.
biff's point is that he believes you find it acceptable (or at least not too unacceptable) for the US president to behave in such a manner, and he finds that shocking.
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On November 28 2016 06:58 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 06:53 biology]major wrote:On November 28 2016 06:51 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 28 2016 06:35 LegalLord wrote:On November 28 2016 06:25 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I think we have to start thinking very hard about the fact that half an advance country consider that making stuff up all the time, disregarding the facts and lying like at a machinegun rate is perfectly ok. I mean, what does that say about the US democracy? We also have to consider that the other side advanced a serial liar with a long history of dirty dealings who has lower favorability than any candidate in history other than her opponent. And she made the case for herself against her primary opponent by using money, establishment support, and making the argument that they have to nominate her because she is the electable one who will win the general. Both sides kind of really sucked. One side may be worse than the other but frankly what Clinton represents disgusts me every bit as much as what Trump does and what he intends to do. We lost before the General even began. Excuse me, you can dislike Clinton very much, but on the truth department you can't seriously compare her to Trump. I mean, the thing is that if Clinton had said any of what Trump said people would have been saying "WTF she is nuts and doesn't know anything" and it would have been a scandal. But in Trump case people don't give a crap, because he is a bullshit artist, and that he can very well say that the unemployment is 40% or that crime is skyrocketing in the whole country, it doesn't matter. The fact that a president elect can say ANYTHING and that it's fine with people is new, and terrifying. That's all I'm saying. Dude, she compared herself to abraham lincoln when asked about her public and private positions lol. Honesty is not her strong suit, in fact it was her downfall. Man, are you even aware of the number of false statements Trump has made during his campaign? We talk about 30 every single day. I'm not talking about one dumb or false thing Trump said. Yes Hillary has lied here and there, yes all politicians, and in fact everyone does. But that's REALLY not the point, because I'm talking about a guy who lie or make stuff up all the fucking time and just talk crazy. Like, bat shit crazy. http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/https://www.indy100.com/article/this-journalist-is-listing-all-the-lies-donald-trump-tells-every-day-7322776I think it's absolutely amazing that you don't see how that's a problem. And really if most people don't think it's a problem, I think we, the humanity, are fucked, and I mean it. And stop answering with Clinton. Clinton is not president. I want you to explain to me how it is ok that your president elect has absolutely no connection to the truth whatsoever. That's completely beyond me.
It is important to look at the bigger picture.
Specifically talking about this
https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/778375644321288192/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
1.
While ISIS did form in 1999, it was only until recently (when Clinton was in power), did ISIS became ever more aggressive.
2.
President Elect Trump was clearly talking about Omar Mateen's father, whom was a fan of the Talibans.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/12/orlando-shooting-suspects-father-hosted-a-political-tv-show-and-even-tried-to-run-for-the-afghan-presidency
3.
Clinton might said those things but actions speaks louder than words, she shouldn't have let herself be corrupted with blood money from the Islamic countries. So she is a pathological liar.
4.
The point that President Elect Trump was trying to make is that China have been ripping America off in terms of trade, 367 billion is still a heft amount of money.
I would go on but this guy and whoever radically believes this is CLEARLY missing the bigger picture here.
P.S. stop fear mongering, its not helping the society.
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On November 28 2016 07:08 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 06:51 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 28 2016 06:35 LegalLord wrote:On November 28 2016 06:25 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I think we have to start thinking very hard about the fact that half an advance country consider that making stuff up all the time, disregarding the facts and lying like at a machinegun rate is perfectly ok. I mean, what does that say about the US democracy? We also have to consider that the other side advanced a serial liar with a long history of dirty dealings who has lower favorability than any candidate in history other than her opponent. And she made the case for herself against her primary opponent by using money, establishment support, and making the argument that they have to nominate her because she is the electable one who will win the general. Both sides kind of really sucked. One side may be worse than the other but frankly what Clinton represents disgusts me every bit as much as what Trump does and what he intends to do. We lost before the General even began. Excuse me, you can dislike Clinton very much, but on the truth department you can't seriously compare her to Trump. I mean, the thing is that if Clinton had said any of what Trump said people would have been saying "WTF she is nuts and doesn't know anything" and it would have been a scandal. But in Trump case people don't give a crap, because he is a bullshit artist, and that he can very well say that the unemployment is 40% or that crime is skyrocketing in the whole country, it doesn't matter. The fact that a president elect can say ANYTHING and that it's fine with people is new, and terrifying. That's all I'm saying. Trump is a pathological liar and just about everyone has accepted that by now. Even most of his supporters. What is true, however, is that if you want to talk about how bad Trump is, then you had better do so in the context of acknowledging why people might have chosen a guy like that. And that context is Hillary Clinton. She is the epitome of everything a lot of people despise about business as usual, and damn did she let that opinion of her stick.
I know that.
My problem is that we live in a society where apparently the truth has lost all its value. I think it's a quite serious issue. And the american elected a guy who is bullshitting them on a daily basis, and they don't see the problem. They don't even feel offended. I mean, I would be fucking furious if I went to a political meeting and the guy started to just lie in my face for an hour.
Again, have his supporter no self respect?
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I quite enjoy Trump's constant trolling of the left. I hope he keeps it up. And the genius with his latest tweet is that it forces another uncomfortable conversation for the left on voter ID laws and illegal immigration. These are winning issues for Trump, and he knows it.
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On November 28 2016 07:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 07:08 LegalLord wrote:On November 28 2016 06:51 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 28 2016 06:35 LegalLord wrote:On November 28 2016 06:25 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I think we have to start thinking very hard about the fact that half an advance country consider that making stuff up all the time, disregarding the facts and lying like at a machinegun rate is perfectly ok. I mean, what does that say about the US democracy? We also have to consider that the other side advanced a serial liar with a long history of dirty dealings who has lower favorability than any candidate in history other than her opponent. And she made the case for herself against her primary opponent by using money, establishment support, and making the argument that they have to nominate her because she is the electable one who will win the general. Both sides kind of really sucked. One side may be worse than the other but frankly what Clinton represents disgusts me every bit as much as what Trump does and what he intends to do. We lost before the General even began. Excuse me, you can dislike Clinton very much, but on the truth department you can't seriously compare her to Trump. I mean, the thing is that if Clinton had said any of what Trump said people would have been saying "WTF she is nuts and doesn't know anything" and it would have been a scandal. But in Trump case people don't give a crap, because he is a bullshit artist, and that he can very well say that the unemployment is 40% or that crime is skyrocketing in the whole country, it doesn't matter. The fact that a president elect can say ANYTHING and that it's fine with people is new, and terrifying. That's all I'm saying. Trump is a pathological liar and just about everyone has accepted that by now. Even most of his supporters. What is true, however, is that if you want to talk about how bad Trump is, then you had better do so in the context of acknowledging why people might have chosen a guy like that. And that context is Hillary Clinton. She is the epitome of everything a lot of people despise about business as usual, and damn did she let that opinion of her stick. I know that. My problem is that we live in a society where apparently the truth has lost all its value. I think it's a quite serious issue. And the american elected a guy who is bullshitting them on a daily basis, and they don't see the problem. They don't even feel offended. I mean, I would be fucking furious if I went to a political meeting and the guy started to just lie in my face for an hour. Again, have his supporter no self respect?
From what I've seen they do have self-respect, they just gloss over/eye roll the bs; or look at the point he could have been making rather than what he actually said. It could be viewed (very charitably) as a different style of speaking.
Plenty of people are furious with trump over it, but there's only so much as can be done.
RiK -> it's not really fearmongering given the correctness of biff's posts. Some things are legitimately concerning.
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I don't think it's "constant trolling." I mean if he were a good troll he wouldn't have gotten so incredibly butthurt over the Hamilton thing.
Nor is regurgitating conflicts that the left has a very coherent position on (voter ID laws) trolling. Unless we count "pretending to be stupid" as trolling, which is truly the lowest common denominator (and he isn't really pretending).
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On November 28 2016 07:13 RealityIsKing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 06:58 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 28 2016 06:53 biology]major wrote:On November 28 2016 06:51 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 28 2016 06:35 LegalLord wrote:On November 28 2016 06:25 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I think we have to start thinking very hard about the fact that half an advance country consider that making stuff up all the time, disregarding the facts and lying like at a machinegun rate is perfectly ok. I mean, what does that say about the US democracy? We also have to consider that the other side advanced a serial liar with a long history of dirty dealings who has lower favorability than any candidate in history other than her opponent. And she made the case for herself against her primary opponent by using money, establishment support, and making the argument that they have to nominate her because she is the electable one who will win the general. Both sides kind of really sucked. One side may be worse than the other but frankly what Clinton represents disgusts me every bit as much as what Trump does and what he intends to do. We lost before the General even began. Excuse me, you can dislike Clinton very much, but on the truth department you can't seriously compare her to Trump. I mean, the thing is that if Clinton had said any of what Trump said people would have been saying "WTF she is nuts and doesn't know anything" and it would have been a scandal. But in Trump case people don't give a crap, because he is a bullshit artist, and that he can very well say that the unemployment is 40% or that crime is skyrocketing in the whole country, it doesn't matter. The fact that a president elect can say ANYTHING and that it's fine with people is new, and terrifying. That's all I'm saying. Dude, she compared herself to abraham lincoln when asked about her public and private positions lol. Honesty is not her strong suit, in fact it was her downfall. Man, are you even aware of the number of false statements Trump has made during his campaign? We talk about 30 every single day. I'm not talking about one dumb or false thing Trump said. Yes Hillary has lied here and there, yes all politicians, and in fact everyone does. But that's REALLY not the point, because I'm talking about a guy who lie or make stuff up all the fucking time and just talk crazy. Like, bat shit crazy. http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/https://www.indy100.com/article/this-journalist-is-listing-all-the-lies-donald-trump-tells-every-day-7322776I think it's absolutely amazing that you don't see how that's a problem. And really if most people don't think it's a problem, I think we, the humanity, are fucked, and I mean it. And stop answering with Clinton. Clinton is not president. I want you to explain to me how it is ok that your president elect has absolutely no connection to the truth whatsoever. That's completely beyond me. It is important to look at the bigger picture. Specifically talking about this https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/778375644321288192/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw1. While ISIS did form in 1999, it was only until recently (when Clinton was in power), did ISIS became ever more aggressive. 2. President Elect Trump was clearly talking about Omar Mateen's father, whom was a fan of the Talibans. https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/12/orlando-shooting-suspects-father-hosted-a-political-tv-show-and-even-tried-to-run-for-the-afghan-presidency3. Clinton might said those things but actions speaks louder than words, she shouldn't have let herself be corrupted with blood money from the Islamic countries. So she is a pathological liar. 4. The point that President Elect Trump was trying to make is that China have been ripping America off in terms of trade, 367 billion is still a heft amount of money. I would go on but this guy and whoever radically believes this is CLEARLY missing the bigger picture here. P.S. stop fear mongering, its not helping the society.
Are you seriously suggesting that saying that Trump makes stuff up all the time is fear mongering???
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I love his lack of nuanced positions and weak relationships with reality, because that's what it takes to open a dialogue these days due to politicians being too timid to tackle the big issues. Ban muslims - people start talking about how radical elements of islam can be a problem instead of brushing it under the rug. Build a wall - hm maybe immigration control is actually something the people care about rather than just giving lip service every cycle and saying "comprehensive immigration reform". Attacking China and mexico for ripping us off on trade deals etc etc. Now with that tweet you referenced Biff, I hope we can actually find out how many people illegally voted, even in nonconsequential places like LA and SF and ultimately it will enter the mainstream dialogue.
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United States15275 Posts
On November 28 2016 07:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Well if I listen to a candidate and I start realizing that he is just taking me for an idiot and stating what completely false fact after another, I'll have a problem. I don't know you.
A large majority of the American public already believes this. They have low trust in the integrity of the government and their representatives' commitment to acting for the public good. Politicians are generally disparaged as self-serving and egotistical, only looking to advance themselves. This is the narrative that both Democrats and Republicans have used during election time: the opponent is untrustworthy, privileged, a liar, etc. As a corollary, politicians are not expected to be truthful in the traditional sense. They are expected to be stand-ins for what Lasch called political narcissism. They represent the personal and social leanings of the individual and incite personal connection rather than sound judgment.
On November 28 2016 07:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:
And I think (or thought) that most people would. If anything out of self respect.
Most people's version of truth is "whatever corresponds to my current beliefs".
On November 28 2016 07:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Truth is what democracy is based upon. Remove it and it collapses. Of course people and politicians compromise with it. But here we have a complete disconnection, and it looks like people like biology major is totally ok with that.
Well, Leo Strauss would argue democracy is based on a small elite cabal with access to esoteric truth leading the dumb cows who don't know any better. Or you could look towards Sheldon Wolin, who claims our country is already moving towards a form of inverted totalitarianism. Your description of democracy's foundations is perhaps the most optimistic possible.
You should probably look at what Vladislav Surkov has done under Putin's regime to understand why Trump's self-contradiction has meant nothing to his base.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On November 28 2016 07:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 07:08 LegalLord wrote:On November 28 2016 06:51 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 28 2016 06:35 LegalLord wrote:On November 28 2016 06:25 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I think we have to start thinking very hard about the fact that half an advance country consider that making stuff up all the time, disregarding the facts and lying like at a machinegun rate is perfectly ok. I mean, what does that say about the US democracy? We also have to consider that the other side advanced a serial liar with a long history of dirty dealings who has lower favorability than any candidate in history other than her opponent. And she made the case for herself against her primary opponent by using money, establishment support, and making the argument that they have to nominate her because she is the electable one who will win the general. Both sides kind of really sucked. One side may be worse than the other but frankly what Clinton represents disgusts me every bit as much as what Trump does and what he intends to do. We lost before the General even began. Excuse me, you can dislike Clinton very much, but on the truth department you can't seriously compare her to Trump. I mean, the thing is that if Clinton had said any of what Trump said people would have been saying "WTF she is nuts and doesn't know anything" and it would have been a scandal. But in Trump case people don't give a crap, because he is a bullshit artist, and that he can very well say that the unemployment is 40% or that crime is skyrocketing in the whole country, it doesn't matter. The fact that a president elect can say ANYTHING and that it's fine with people is new, and terrifying. That's all I'm saying. Trump is a pathological liar and just about everyone has accepted that by now. Even most of his supporters. What is true, however, is that if you want to talk about how bad Trump is, then you had better do so in the context of acknowledging why people might have chosen a guy like that. And that context is Hillary Clinton. She is the epitome of everything a lot of people despise about business as usual, and damn did she let that opinion of her stick. I know that. My problem is that we live in a society where apparently the truth has lost all its value. I think it's a quite serious issue. And the american elected a guy who is bullshitting them on a daily basis, and they don't see the problem. They don't even feel offended. I mean, I would be fucking furious if I went to a political meeting and the guy started to just lie in my face for an hour. Again, have his supporter no self respect?
A lot of them are poorly educated and they just might believe him, that much is true. Though there's plenty of those on both sides, to be fair.
Some acknowledge that it is true, but also that the other choice is a liar too, and perhaps this liar is better than that liar for whatever range of reasons.
A few embrace the chaos because they just enjoy the carnage that these four years of Trump will inevitably bring.
There are a lot of liars around. It'd be nice to have a viable leader who isn't a total liar but we weren't lucky. We as folk who live in the US have largely just come to terms with it, at least for now.
As a side note, I remember Trump back in the primaries; those were his finest moments. He lied, but he lied in ways that the Republican establishment folk couldn't contradict him. There was some charm to his admittedly excessive, yet creative, form of lying. The system became so contorted in such a stupid way that Trump acquired a path to victory.
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On November 28 2016 07:15 xDaunt wrote:
I quite enjoy Trump's constant trolling of the left. I hope he keeps it up. And the genius with his latest tweet is that it forces another uncomfortable conversation for the left on voter ID laws and illegal immigration. These are winning issues for Trump, and he knows it.
I think you nailed it. You've elected a twitter troll that has a twitter troll respect for people (in the first place the people who voted for him) and the truth in general. And you think that's great.
The sad thing is that you don't realize you are the one getting trolled. You are the one who elected him on absolute non sense, on erratic and completely ridiculous promises. It is you he is literally shitting on.
But beside that, it's beautiful to see how much you believe in a mature democratic discussion and debate, if you believe that trolling at a Youtube forum level is a great way to advance your points at a national level.
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On November 28 2016 07:19 biology]major wrote:
I love his lack of nuanced positions and weak relationships with reality, because that's what it takes to open a dialogue these days due to politicians being too timid to tackle the big issues. Ban muslims - people start talking about how radical elements of islam can be a problem instead of brushing it under the rug. Build a wall - hm maybe immigration control is actually something the people care about rather than just giving lip service every cycle and saying "comprehensive immigration reform". Attacking China and mexico for ripping us off on trade deals etc etc. Now with that tweet you referenced Biff, I hope we can actually find out how many people illegally voted, even in nonconsequential places like LA and SF and ultimately it will enter the mainstream dialogue.
or you could just select people who aren't politicians, like me (well, I'm sorta politician).
also, most of those things were addressed, just not in a way you like. there is a proven trend toward inaction in democracies, pretty sure that's an outgrowth of human psychology, one of the reasons to shift away to a better form of government that avoids that problem.
It's easy to open a dialogue, it's hard to get to the actual solutions; though what's truly hard is to get agreement on solutions.
we know very very few people illegally voted, at least in terms of illegals voting improperly. and that info already entered mainstream dialogue.
Sadly designing a better form of government than democracy is the easy part, as I said above.
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On November 28 2016 06:35 LegalLord wrote:
We lost before the General even began.
I don't see how you can see the outcome of this election as having been anything other than highly contingent.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On November 28 2016 07:24 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 07:15 xDaunt wrote:
I quite enjoy Trump's constant trolling of the left. I hope he keeps it up. And the genius with his latest tweet is that it forces another uncomfortable conversation for the left on voter ID laws and illegal immigration. These are winning issues for Trump, and he knows it. I think you nailed it. You've elected a twitter troll that has a twitter troll respect for people (in the first place the people who voted for him) and the truth in general. And you think that's great. The sad thing is that you don't realize you are the one getting trolled. You are the one who elected him on absolute non sense, on erratic and completely ridiculous promises. It is you he is literally shitting on. But beside that, it's beautiful to see how much you believe in a mature democratic discussion and debate, if you believe that trolling at a Youtube forum level is a great way to advance your points at a national level.
In this specific case, I think xDaunt understands that perfectly. He just sees that chaos as a means to an end. It'd be interesting to see how he explains it specifically, but I can see that he is perfectly aware of what dangers Trump poses and is willing to live with them for the sake of what needs to change on the left and right.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On November 28 2016 07:26 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 06:35 LegalLord wrote:
We lost before the General even began. I don't see how you can see the outcome of this election as having been anything other than highly contingent.
What do you mean?
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On November 28 2016 07:20 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 07:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Well if I listen to a candidate and I start realizing that he is just taking me for an idiot and stating what completely false fact after another, I'll have a problem. I don't know you. A large majority of the American public already believes this. They have low trust in the integrity of the government and their representatives' commitment to acting for the public good. Politicians are generally disparaged as self-serving and egotistical, only looking to advance themselves. This is the narrative that both Democrats and Republicans have used during election time: the opponent is untrustworthy, privileged, a liar, etc. As a corollary, politicians are not expected to be truthful in the traditional sense. They are expected to be stand-ins for what Lasch called political narcissism. They represent the personal and social leanings of the individual and incite personal connection rather than sound judgment. Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 07:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:
And I think (or thought) that most people would. If anything out of self respect. Most people's version of truth is "whatever corresponds to my current beliefs". Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 07:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Truth is what democracy is based upon. Remove it and it collapses. Of course people and politicians compromise with it. But here we have a complete disconnection, and it looks like people like biology major is totally ok with that. Well, Leo Strauss would argue democracy is based on a small elite cabal with access to esoteric truth leading the dumb cows who don't know any better. Or you could look towards Sheldon Wolin, who claims our country is already moving towards a form of inverted totalitarianism. Your description of democracy's foundations is perhaps the most optimistic possible. You should probably look at what Vladislav Surkov has done under Putin's regime to understand why Trump's self-contradiction has meant nothing to his base.
Well, maybe I'm not that cynical yet, and maybe I have had more faith in the American people and democracy than in post soviet russians. Maybe I was wrong.
But all of that is very, very, very sad and seriously worrying.
I think it is time for all of us to rethink a big number of things. And wonder if really we don't deserve better than a twitter troll as the leader of the free world (judging from the reaction from the usual suspects, clearly the answer is no).
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On November 28 2016 07:28 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 07:24 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 28 2016 07:15 xDaunt wrote:
I quite enjoy Trump's constant trolling of the left. I hope he keeps it up. And the genius with his latest tweet is that it forces another uncomfortable conversation for the left on voter ID laws and illegal immigration. These are winning issues for Trump, and he knows it. I think you nailed it. You've elected a twitter troll that has a twitter troll respect for people (in the first place the people who voted for him) and the truth in general. And you think that's great. The sad thing is that you don't realize you are the one getting trolled. You are the one who elected him on absolute non sense, on erratic and completely ridiculous promises. It is you he is literally shitting on. But beside that, it's beautiful to see how much you believe in a mature democratic discussion and debate, if you believe that trolling at a Youtube forum level is a great way to advance your points at a national level. In this specific case, I think xDaunt understands that perfectly. He just sees that chaos as a means to an end. It'd be interesting to see how he explains it specifically, but I can see that he is perfectly aware of what dangers Trump poses and is willing to live with them for the sake of what needs to change on the left and right.
I see your point and I guess you are right. Unfortunate that the chaos he seeks has the power of launching a thermonuclear strike in a few minutes.
I think "chaos" and "thermonuclear" are two words that, ideally, should be kept separated by at least a few sentences.
I'm being sarcastic but not even that much. In any case good night, I'm off to bed.
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EPT
