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On November 08 2016 08:04 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2016 08:02 KwarK wrote:On November 08 2016 07:58 WhiteDog wrote: I'm educated enough to know that saying all "men" or all "white" have "priviledge" in today's world is stupid as hell - do you even know half the people considered poor in the US are white ? WhiteDog, if you insist upon telling us all that you're so educated that you know all about privilege you could at least learn to spell the word. Normally I'm fine with people spelling words how they please but normally they don't get it wrong while midrant about how educated they are and how well they understand the word in question. You've gotten quite low to actually care about the way I spell words. I always have trouble with words that exist in french with different spelling, sorry. Now you can try to argue something rather than doing the teacher. Show nested quote +Whitedog: I didn't say you couldn't talk about them. I said don't expect anyone to give a fuck. Seriously, your expert opinion on the experience of black people or women in modern life is about as valuable as mine opinion on economic theory. Novice at best, completely uninformed at worst. It's just a stupid assertion. What basis do you have for that ? Just saying, we were talking about "whitesplaining" not "blacksplaining". We are not talking about the discrimination that black sufffer, which exist, but about the possible unity of the category "white" which I disagree with. If you are asking this question, you failed to understand the basic point I was attempting to make about different life experiences and how they inform my discussions about racism. I'm not going to re-explain it to you for the 3 or 5th time, so just go back and re-read what I wrote before.
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Eh fuck it I'm not going to bother with polls for the next 24 hours, they're changing rapidly and could be wrong. We'll all know soon enough who wins, anyways. I just hope that regardless of who wins, the vast majority of the US can at least accept it and not do anything crazy
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On November 08 2016 08:09 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2016 08:03 Gorsameth wrote:On November 08 2016 07:10 LegalLord wrote: The Trump Republicans aren't going anywhere. People may want to dump Trump but he turned out to be widely popular with a large enough part of the base to win the nomination. This is the bit I will remember the most after the election I think. Trump is not the scary part, yes he is imo a terrible human being but he is only 1 person. The fact that some 40% of the US population is ok with his statements is what scares me. Trump has shown that you can publicly say the most disturbing and insane things and a large part of the population is perfectly fine with it and I think its going to drag down the level of political discourse in the US for many elections to come. Trump has shown America you can be a racist/misogynist/bigot and compulsive liar and be proud of it. Idk if you saw that american come back vid, but Trump really isn't a horrible human being. Lot of his workers have similar stories, and someone who is so wealthy taking time to treat lowly workers with respect shows character. He's brash, not well spoken and is very impulsive, but there's far worse people out there. A video versus Trumps own words every time he opens his mouth. Every time he doubles down on a racist/misogynist statement.
He has condemned himself by his own words and actions. No spin required.
Are there worse people in the world? Yes there are, but they are not running for US President.
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On November 08 2016 08:15 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2016 08:04 WhiteDog wrote:On November 08 2016 08:02 KwarK wrote:On November 08 2016 07:58 WhiteDog wrote: I'm educated enough to know that saying all "men" or all "white" have "priviledge" in today's world is stupid as hell - do you even know half the people considered poor in the US are white ? WhiteDog, if you insist upon telling us all that you're so educated that you know all about privilege you could at least learn to spell the word. Normally I'm fine with people spelling words how they please but normally they don't get it wrong while midrant about how educated they are and how well they understand the word in question. You've gotten quite low to actually care about the way I spell words. I always have trouble with words that exist in french with different spelling, sorry. Now you can try to argue something rather than doing the teacher. Whitedog: I didn't say you couldn't talk about them. I said don't expect anyone to give a fuck. Seriously, your expert opinion on the experience of black people or women in modern life is about as valuable as mine opinion on economic theory. Novice at best, completely uninformed at worst. It's just a stupid assertion. What basis do you have for that ? Just saying, we were talking about "whitesplaining" not "blacksplaining". We are not talking about the discrimination that black sufffer, which exist, but about the possible unity of the category "white" which I disagree with. If you are asking this question, you failed to understand the basic point I was attempting to make about different life experiences and how they inform my discussions about racism. I'm not going to re-explain it to you for the 3 or 5th time, so just go back and re-read what I wrote before. You're always responding to me with "subjectivity" : so "privilege" is a "life experience" and a way to "inform discussion on racism".
Meanwhile, I'm asking you to do a real sociological work : show me the objective existence of the group "white" from a socio-economical perspective in the US today, and not from a "subjective" standpoint. That's scientific work, objectifying things.
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On November 08 2016 08:02 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2016 07:58 WhiteDog wrote: I'm educated enough to know that saying all "men" or all "white" have "priviledge" in today's world is stupid as hell - do you even know half the people considered poor in the US are white ? WhiteDog, if you insist upon telling us all that you're so educated that you know all about privilege you could at least learn to spell the word. Normally I'm fine with people spelling words how they please but normally they don't get it wrong while midrant about how educated they are and how well they understand the word in question. To be fair that word is a complete pain in the ass to spell. It just doesn't look right. Privilege . I have to consciously think about it to get it right the first time and not massacare it as privlidge or privledge.
The pronunciation in my little corner of the world is thoroughly divorced from the word itself.
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On November 08 2016 07:58 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2016 07:16 ChristianS wrote:On November 08 2016 07:01 Probe1 wrote:On November 08 2016 06:46 Danglars wrote:On November 08 2016 06:35 Probe1 wrote: I'll pass on anyone who starts an article with the un-ironic usage of the word "mansplaining". That dude embodies the very worst of bigotry. You can only be racist against certain groups. Now that's one word I hope never enters common usage. But given my luck, you'll eventually be a bitter clinger for disliking it. It's important to say something. Letting someone devalue a person because of their gender is offensively sexist and speaking up against inequality against anyone is important. But that doesn't necessarily mean one dude who writes for a magazine I'd never read myself will rule my life. As civil rights activists have taught, I will walk a high road here and appreciate that all people should be judged not by what they are but by the merit of their ideas. I don't care if a man or a woman uses that word. They both equally offend me. And I will ignore them in equal measure even if I have to occasionally say out loud, "Wow that is really fucking sexist bud". While I'm no particular fan of words like "mansplaining" or "whitesplaining," in the ideal usage they refer to circumstances in which a member of the relatively privileged majority is trying to explain to an underprivileged minority something about what it is like to be an underprivileged minority in the US, for instance. The criticism being that the offender is blatantly ignoring that the other person has a great deal more knowledge and experience on the issue. So it's not as simple as "mansplaining = men aren't allowed to talk about social issues b/c they're sexist or something." Like, if a undergrad physics major was arguing a fine point of physics theory with his professor and was accused of "undergradsplaining," the accuser would not be claiming that undergrads aren't allowed to talk about physics. The idea would be that when you're talking to someone that knows a lot more about a thing than you, you should shut the fuck up and listen instead of trying to explain to them why you're right and they're wrong because you in your infinite wisdom have already considered every side of this issue and discovered the One True Answer. If someone accuses you of "mansplaining" and you go off on them about how sexist they are, you're only going to reinforce their perception of you as someone who's relatively ignorant on gender issues, but way too confident in his opinions and unwilling to consider others' POV. I like people trying to rationalize stupid meme with ignorant arguments. You're doing a Plansix, making us believe that only gender theorist and women can talk about gender issues. I'm educated enough to know that saying all "men" or all "white" have "priviledge" in today's world is stupid as hell - do you even know half the people considered poor in the US are white ? Case in point. Since approximately no one ever claimed that white privilege means white people never face difficult challenges, the fact that you can be both white and poor is completely irrelevant. But without knowing all that much about it you've formed a strong opinion on the subject and decided people who disagree with you are "stupid as hell." It's not that only women can talk about gender issues, but if you don't know much about gender issues, don't write off the position of many more knowledgeable people so flippantly, or you'll come off looking arrogant, self-centered, and dense.
Here's another example. I don't like the term "cultural appropriation" very much (i wrote a blog about it a while back) because it's used stupidly 95% of the time. But in theory it's supposed to apply to something like blackface, where a majority culture imitates a minority culture (usually poorly), often to make fun of it or assure themselves of their superiority. To then angrily say "SJWs are hypocrites, they complain about cultural appropriation but still wear blue jeans and drink Coke, that's appropriating white culture" is a dumb as hell thing to say, but in my experience it's usually white people's take on the idea. This is not to say white people aren't allowed to talk about race issues, it's just to say that white people often say fucking ignorant things about race and then start whining about being discriminated against when they're told to stfu.
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Then give me data : where are the data on privilege ? What's a white privilege ? Show me something that all white people have that non white people have not ? Should be obvious since everybody here seems to consider it to be obvious.
I can show you tons of data on the actual discrimination that all black people face, whatever their socio economic background. Without any diifficulties : that's racism you know, not a subjective feeling or some kind of experience, but actual practice and judgements that influence one's experience.
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On November 08 2016 08:19 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2016 08:15 Plansix wrote:On November 08 2016 08:04 WhiteDog wrote:On November 08 2016 08:02 KwarK wrote:On November 08 2016 07:58 WhiteDog wrote: I'm educated enough to know that saying all "men" or all "white" have "priviledge" in today's world is stupid as hell - do you even know half the people considered poor in the US are white ? WhiteDog, if you insist upon telling us all that you're so educated that you know all about privilege you could at least learn to spell the word. Normally I'm fine with people spelling words how they please but normally they don't get it wrong while midrant about how educated they are and how well they understand the word in question. You've gotten quite low to actually care about the way I spell words. I always have trouble with words that exist in french with different spelling, sorry. Now you can try to argue something rather than doing the teacher. Whitedog: I didn't say you couldn't talk about them. I said don't expect anyone to give a fuck. Seriously, your expert opinion on the experience of black people or women in modern life is about as valuable as mine opinion on economic theory. Novice at best, completely uninformed at worst. It's just a stupid assertion. What basis do you have for that ? Just saying, we were talking about "whitesplaining" not "blacksplaining". We are not talking about the discrimination that black sufffer, which exist, but about the possible unity of the category "white" which I disagree with. If you are asking this question, you failed to understand the basic point I was attempting to make about different life experiences and how they inform my discussions about racism. I'm not going to re-explain it to you for the 3 or 5th time, so just go back and re-read what I wrote before. You're always responding to me with "subjectivity" : so "privilege" is a "life experience" and a way to "inform discussion on racism". Meanwhile, I'm asking you to do a real sociological work : show me the objective existence of the group "white" from a socio-economical perspective in the US today, and not from a "subjective" standpoint. That's scientific work, objectifying things. And I am ask you to stop demanding others educate you when you don't like the words they are using. We disagree that the word applies. I feel zero need to change your mind. Just like Kwark, I don't care to change your opinion on the subject. If you want to have good faith discussions with people, don't lead in by calling them all stupid and ignorant. You just look like an asshole.
For reference:+ Show Spoiler +On November 08 2016 07:58 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2016 07:16 ChristianS wrote:On November 08 2016 07:01 Probe1 wrote:On November 08 2016 06:46 Danglars wrote:On November 08 2016 06:35 Probe1 wrote: I'll pass on anyone who starts an article with the un-ironic usage of the word "mansplaining". That dude embodies the very worst of bigotry. You can only be racist against certain groups. Now that's one word I hope never enters common usage. But given my luck, you'll eventually be a bitter clinger for disliking it. It's important to say something. Letting someone devalue a person because of their gender is offensively sexist and speaking up against inequality against anyone is important. But that doesn't necessarily mean one dude who writes for a magazine I'd never read myself will rule my life. As civil rights activists have taught, I will walk a high road here and appreciate that all people should be judged not by what they are but by the merit of their ideas. I don't care if a man or a woman uses that word. They both equally offend me. And I will ignore them in equal measure even if I have to occasionally say out loud, "Wow that is really fucking sexist bud". While I'm no particular fan of words like "mansplaining" or "whitesplaining," in the ideal usage they refer to circumstances in which a member of the relatively privileged majority is trying to explain to an underprivileged minority something about what it is like to be an underprivileged minority in the US, for instance. The criticism being that the offender is blatantly ignoring that the other person has a great deal more knowledge and experience on the issue. So it's not as simple as "mansplaining = men aren't allowed to talk about social issues b/c they're sexist or something." Like, if a undergrad physics major was arguing a fine point of physics theory with his professor and was accused of "undergradsplaining," the accuser would not be claiming that undergrads aren't allowed to talk about physics. The idea would be that when you're talking to someone that knows a lot more about a thing than you, you should shut the fuck up and listen instead of trying to explain to them why you're right and they're wrong because you in your infinite wisdom have already considered every side of this issue and discovered the One True Answer. If someone accuses you of "mansplaining" and you go off on them about how sexist they are, you're only going to reinforce their perception of you as someone who's relatively ignorant on gender issues, but way too confident in his opinions and unwilling to consider others' POV. I like people trying to rationalize stupid meme with ignorant arguments. You're doing a Plansix, making us believe that only gender theorist and women can talk about gender issues. I'm educated enough to know that saying all "men" or all "white" have "priviledge" in today's world is stupid as hell - do you even know half the people considered poor in the US are white ?
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On November 08 2016 08:24 WhiteDog wrote: Then give me data : where are the data on privilege ? What's a white privilege ? Show me something that all white people have that non white people have not ? Should be obvious since everybody here seems to consider it to be obvious.
I can show you tons of data on the actual discrimination that all black people face, whatever their socio economic background. Without any diifficulties. Criminal incarceration rates
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On November 08 2016 08:26 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2016 08:24 WhiteDog wrote: Then give me data : where are the data on privilege ? What's a white privilege ? Show me something that all white people have that non white people have not ? Should be obvious since everybody here seems to consider it to be obvious.
I can show you tons of data on the actual discrimination that all black people face, whatever their socio economic background. Without any diifficulties. Criminal incarceration rates Number of white male CEO, senators, and any other position of power. Hollywood as a whole, but specifically directors. The tech industry. Television comedy. Comics, both writers and characters. Cable news broadcasters. We could go on forever.
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On November 08 2016 08:26 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2016 08:24 WhiteDog wrote: Then give me data : where are the data on privilege ? What's a white privilege ? Show me something that all white people have that non white people have not ? Should be obvious since everybody here seems to consider it to be obvious.
I can show you tons of data on the actual discrimination that all black people face, whatever their socio economic background. Without any diifficulties. Criminal incarceration rates You're saying poor white kids have less chance to go to prison than asian kids ? Or mexican kids ? Or are you comparing with the obvious black kids, and thus actually observing the discrimination against back kids and not the "privilege" white kids supposedly have ?
Number of CEO, senators, and any other position of power. Hollywood as a whole. The tech industry. Television comedy. Comics. Cable news broadcasters. social class, social class, social class, social class, etc. Most (if not all) of the white you see on TV comes from favored socio economic background : it's not their "whiteness" that is at the core of their "privilege". Pretty obvious for senator, there's no son of unemployed as senator, trust me.
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On November 08 2016 08:19 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2016 08:15 Plansix wrote:On November 08 2016 08:04 WhiteDog wrote:On November 08 2016 08:02 KwarK wrote:On November 08 2016 07:58 WhiteDog wrote: I'm educated enough to know that saying all "men" or all "white" have "priviledge" in today's world is stupid as hell - do you even know half the people considered poor in the US are white ? WhiteDog, if you insist upon telling us all that you're so educated that you know all about privilege you could at least learn to spell the word. Normally I'm fine with people spelling words how they please but normally they don't get it wrong while midrant about how educated they are and how well they understand the word in question. You've gotten quite low to actually care about the way I spell words. I always have trouble with words that exist in french with different spelling, sorry. Now you can try to argue something rather than doing the teacher. Whitedog: I didn't say you couldn't talk about them. I said don't expect anyone to give a fuck. Seriously, your expert opinion on the experience of black people or women in modern life is about as valuable as mine opinion on economic theory. Novice at best, completely uninformed at worst. It's just a stupid assertion. What basis do you have for that ? Just saying, we were talking about "whitesplaining" not "blacksplaining". We are not talking about the discrimination that black sufffer, which exist, but about the possible unity of the category "white" which I disagree with. If you are asking this question, you failed to understand the basic point I was attempting to make about different life experiences and how they inform my discussions about racism. I'm not going to re-explain it to you for the 3 or 5th time, so just go back and re-read what I wrote before. You're always responding to me with "subjectivity" : so "privilege" is a "life experience" and a way to "inform discussion on racism". Meanwhile, I'm asking you to do a real sociological work : show me the objective existence of the group "white" from a socio-economical perspective in the US today, and not from a "subjective" standpoint. That's scientific work, objectifying things. Are you suggesting that the only worthwhile social work is that which attempts to be scientific? I can sympathize with being antagonistic towards non-analytical approaches to the social sciences, but you seem to be running too far in that direction.
Drop the word games surrounding the word "privilege"; the meaning and utility of the underlying concept, namely that society loosely confers a tacit level of inherent acceptance upon certain demographics given particular circumstances (yes, that's a loose and vague definition), cannot be shooed away simply because it does not lend itself to scientific analysis. And while you're right to point out that "whiteness" as an isolated indicator of privilege leaves much to be desired, it'd be a mistake to isolate and ignore race when discussing class issues here in the US.
A lot of the juiciest stuff in the social sciences is that which most directly challenges the propriety of "science" as a categorical descriptor anyhow
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A job applicant with a name that sounds like it might belong to an African-American - say, Lakisha Washington or Jamal Jones - can find it harder to get a job. Despite laws against discrimination, affirmative action, a degree of employer enlightenment, and the desire by some businesses to enhance profits by hiring those most qualified regardless of race, African-Americans are twice as likely as whites to be unemployed and they earn nearly 25 percent less when they are employed.
Now a "field experiment" by NBER Faculty Research Fellows Marianne Bertrand and Sendhil Mullainathan measures this discrimination in a novel way. In response to help-wanted ads in Chicago and Boston newspapers, they sent resumes with either African-American- or white-sounding names and then measured the number of callbacks each resume received for interviews. Thus, they experimentally manipulated perception of race via the name on the resume. Half of the applicants were assigned African-American names that are "remarkably common" in the black population, the other half white sounding names, such as Emily Walsh or Greg Baker.
To see how the credentials of job applicants affect discrimination, the authors varied the quality of the resumes they used in response to a given ad. Higher quality applicants were given a little more labor market experience on average and fewer holes in their employment history. They were also portrayed as more likely to have an email address, to have completed some certification degree, to possess foreign language skills, or to have been awarded some honors.
In total, the authors responded to more than 1,300 employment ads in the sales, administrative support, clerical, and customer services job categories, sending out nearly 5,000 resumes. The ads covered a large spectrum of job quality, from cashier work at retail establishments and clerical work in a mailroom to office and sales management positions.
The results indicate large racial differences in callback rates to a phone line with a voice mailbox attached and a message recorded by someone of the appropriate race and gender. Job applicants with white names needed to send about 10 resumes to get one callback; those with African-American names needed to send around 15 resumes to get one callback. This would suggest either employer prejudice or employer perception that race signals lower productivity.
here are some numbers for whitedoge
and this is ignoring the systemic disparity with people knowing about opportunities like with black comedians
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On November 08 2016 08:28 WhiteDog wrote: ... social class, social class, social class, social class, etc. Most (if not all) of the white you see on TV comes from favored socio economic background : it's not their "whiteness" that is at the core of their "privilege". Pretty obvious for senator, there's no son of unemployed as senator, trust me. I think I can see the point you're trying to make... but I am pretty sure that a randomly selected person is more likely to be from a higher social class if they are white than if they are a person of colour.
Even if social class is a more direct predictor of desirable life outcomes (however one chooses to define that), that doesn't mean that racial biases don't exist.
EDIT: For the record, I do think that a strategy to address racial privilege that does not also address social inequality in general is flawed.
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United States41992 Posts
On November 08 2016 08:28 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2016 08:26 Nevuk wrote:On November 08 2016 08:24 WhiteDog wrote: Then give me data : where are the data on privilege ? What's a white privilege ? Show me something that all white people have that non white people have not ? Should be obvious since everybody here seems to consider it to be obvious.
I can show you tons of data on the actual discrimination that all black people face, whatever their socio economic background. Without any diifficulties. Criminal incarceration rates Number of white male CEO, senators, and any other position of power. Hollywood as a whole, but specifically directors. The tech industry. Television comedy. Comics, both writers and characters. Cable news broadcasters. We could go on forever. School programs. Criminal sentencing practices. Hell, voting rights.
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On November 08 2016 08:35 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2016 08:28 Plansix wrote:On November 08 2016 08:26 Nevuk wrote:On November 08 2016 08:24 WhiteDog wrote: Then give me data : where are the data on privilege ? What's a white privilege ? Show me something that all white people have that non white people have not ? Should be obvious since everybody here seems to consider it to be obvious.
I can show you tons of data on the actual discrimination that all black people face, whatever their socio economic background. Without any diifficulties. Criminal incarceration rates Number of white male CEO, senators, and any other position of power. Hollywood as a whole, but specifically directors. The tech industry. Television comedy. Comics, both writers and characters. Cable news broadcasters. We could go on forever. School programs. Criminal sentencing practices. Hell, voting rights. As a white dude, I never need to worry if someone will question my right to vote, especially in the area I live. Brown people across this country always have to fear that someone will change their right to vote or make it difficult for them to do so.
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On November 08 2016 08:24 WhiteDog wrote: Then give me data : where are the data on privilege ? What's a white privilege ? Show me something that all white people have that non white people have not ? Should be obvious since everybody here seems to consider it to be obvious.
I can show you tons of data on the actual discrimination that all black people face, whatever their socio economic background. Without any diifficulties : that's racism you know, not a subjective feeling or some kind of experience, but actual practice and judgements that influence one's experience. If you've already got data on racism existing i think you're there already. Maybe someone out there thinks "white privilege" means race in America is such that even the most unfortunate white person is categorically better off than even the most fortunate black person, but most people would just say that race in America is such that there are differences in treatment of different races that are not reducible to other factors like wealth. So while there are poor white people and poor black people, poor black people still face challenges that poor white people do not. Simple shit like that white people are allowed to fuck up and they're just viewed as fuck-ups, not like they let their race down and set back racial progress or something.
Then when black people are successful they still have to face shit white successful people do not. Like when a black guy becomes president and has to deal with some orange dude going around saying there's an elaborate conspiracy and he wasn't actually born in the US.
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On November 08 2016 08:28 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2016 08:26 Nevuk wrote:On November 08 2016 08:24 WhiteDog wrote: Then give me data : where are the data on privilege ? What's a white privilege ? Show me something that all white people have that non white people have not ? Should be obvious since everybody here seems to consider it to be obvious.
I can show you tons of data on the actual discrimination that all black people face, whatever their socio economic background. Without any diifficulties. Criminal incarceration rates You're saying poor white kids have less chance to go to prison than asian kids ? Or mexican kids ? Or are you comparing with the obvious black kids, and thus actually observing the discrimination against back kids and not the "privilege" white kids supposedly have ? Right, that is what I'm saying. The issue is actually worse in supposedly more diverse areas iirc.
I couldn't find the stats for Asian incarceration in a 2 minute google search, but from the 2010 census these are the incarceration numbers for the other major groups (note the per 100,000 numbers) :
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vRT2I5G.png)
http://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/rates.html
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You can give up, French left-wingers with a marxist background are culturally programmed to reject that kind of concept (Xsplaining, privileges). Their motto: “All I see is class!”
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Funnily enough it was basically the stereotypical line against dissidents in East Germany. "Hey you're acting like a liberal artist stoup the bourgeois free speech and minority rights crap, you're betraying class warfare!"
Every time I hear this anti-liberal talk from Zizek nowadays I have to think of that situation. The left needs to get over the fact that nobody cares exclusively about class
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