EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 5896
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 04 2016 03:43 biology]major wrote: If the FBI was trying to investigate Trump and was rejected by the DOJ, and then leaked shit to the media I'm sure you would be saying the same thing. Even more hypocritical is your stance on enforcement of laws, given this whole predicament is founded on HRC's negligence of the law. No, I am highly against Trump banning any media outlets, I am all for his criticism of them. The DoJ, and the Clinton cartel are not worthy of trust, the FBI is. I would never say that. I believe Trump has clearly violated the law with how he used campaign donations, but I never called for the FEC to publicly investigate him during the election. I never called for the finding of the investigation into the Trump foundation to be made public. Or for the IRS to release his tax records. And I would never support them doing do. Don’t attempt to pull me down to your level. Not all of us are willing to win by whatever means necessary. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On November 04 2016 03:43 biology]major wrote: If the FBI was trying to investigate Trump and was rejected by the DOJ, and then leaked shit to the media I'm sure you would be saying the same thing. Even more hypocritical is your stance on enforcement of laws, given this whole predicament is founded on HRC's negligence of the law. No, I am highly against Trump banning any media outlets, I am all for his criticism of them. The DoJ, and the Clinton cartel are not worthy of trust, the FBI is. just because you think we'd be saying the same thing doesn't mean you're right; and you're not, at least not for some of us. I'm sure some of us would, but quite a lot of us wouldn't. a common error to think others will think as you do. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain18055 Posts
On November 04 2016 03:44 KwarK wrote: But you're lucky if you win a 4 out of 5 chance. In addition, simply predicting Obama is not the magic where he got "really really lucky". Anybody with a coin could get that right 50% of the time. The bit where he got lucky is where he predicted almost all the house and senate runs too. I don't know what the margin of error there was, but to get them all right, you basically have to multiply a whole load of X% chances. Lets simplify and say... 90%. That means that for 20 races, his chance of predicting them all right is ~12% Suddenly he has to be really lucky. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21803 Posts
On November 04 2016 03:50 oneofthem wrote: the fbi is entirely about law enforcement not strategy or politics. agents playing politics with the name of the FBI are utterly disgracing the institution. And if that is what is happening here then I have no doubt they will be prosecuted for it. The problem (as is so often) is that the damage is already done. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/03/fbi-leaks-hillary-clinton-james-comey-donald-trump Deep antipathy to Hillary Clinton exists within the FBI, multiple bureau sources have told the Guardian, spurring a rapid series of leaks damaging to her campaign just days before the election. Current and former FBI officials, none of whom were willing or cleared to speak on the record, have described a chaotic internal climate that resulted from outrage over director James Comey’s July decision not to recommend an indictment over Clinton’s maintenance of a private email server on which classified information transited. “The FBI is Trumpland,” said one current agent. This atmosphere raises major questions about how Comey and the bureau he is slated to run for the next seven years can work with Clinton should she win the White House. The currently serving FBI agent said Clinton is “the antichrist personified to a large swath of FBI personnel,” and that “the reason why they’re leaking is they’re pro-Trump.” The agent called the bureau “Trumplandia”, with some colleagues openly discussing voting for a GOP nominee who has garnered unprecedented condemnation from the party’s national security wing and who has pledged to jail Clinton if elected. At the same time, other sources dispute the depth of support for Trump within the bureau, though they uniformly stated that Clinton is viewed highly unfavorably. “There are lots of people who don’t think Trump is qualified, but also believe Clinton is corrupt. What you hear a lot is that it’s a bad choice, between an incompetent and a corrupt politician,” said a former FBI official. Sources who disputed the depth of Trump’s internal support agreed that the FBI is now in parlous political territory. Justice department officials – another current target of FBI dissatisfaction – have said the bureau disregarded longstanding rules against perceived or actual electoral interference when Comey wrote to Congress to say it was reviewing newly discovered emails relating to Clinton’s personal server. Comey’s vague letter to Congress, promptly leaked by Republican congressman Jason Chaffetz, said the bureau would evaluate communications – subsequently identified as coming from a device used by disgraced ex-congressman Anthony Weiner, whose estranged wife Huma Abedin is a Clinton aide – for connections to the Clinton server. Comey’s allies say he was placed in an impossible position after previously testifying to Congress it would take an extraordinary development for him to revisit the Clinton issue. Throughout the summer and fall, Trump has attacked the FBI as corrupt for not effectively ending Clinton’s political career. A political firestorm erupted, with Comey and the bureau coming under withering criticism, including a rebuke on Wednesday from Barack Obama. Even some congressional Republicans, no friends to Clinton, have expressed discomfort with Comey’s last-minute insertion of the bureau into the election. The relevance of the communications to the Clinton inquiry has yet to be established, as Comey issued his letter before obtaining a warrant to evaluate them. Clinton surrogates contend that Comey has issued innuendo rather than evidence, preventing them from mounting a public defense. Some feel Comey needs to address the criticism and provide reassurance that the bureau, with its wide-ranging investigative and surveillance powers, will comport itself in an apolitical manner. Yet since Friday, Comey has maintained his silence, even as both Clinton and Trump have called for the bureau to disclose more of what it knows. Leaks, however, have continued. Fox News reported o0n Wednesday that the FBI is intensifying an investigation into the Clinton Foundation over allegations – which both the foundation and the Clinton camp deny – it traded donations for access to Hillary Clinton when she was secretary of state. The Wall Street Journal reported that justice department officials considered the allegations flimsy. The leaks have not exclusively cast aspersions on Clinton. Paul Manafort, Trump’s former campaign manager, is the subject of what is said to be a preliminary FBI inquiry into his business dealings in Russia. Manafort has denied any wrongdoing. The Daily Beast reported on Thursday on ties between Trump surrogate Rudy Giuliani, the former New York mayor, and the FBI’s New York field office, which reportedly pressed the FBI to revisit the Clinton server investigation after beginning an inquiry into Weiner’s alleged sexual texting with a minor. The website reported that a former New York field office chief, highly critical of the non-indictment, runs a military charity that has received significant financial donations from Trump. Comey’s decision to tell the public in July that he was effectively dropping the Clinton server issue angered some within the bureau, particularly given the background of tensions with the justice department over the Clinton issue. A significant complication is the appearance of a conflict of interest regarding Loretta Lynch, the attorney general, who met with Bill Clinton this summer ahead of Comey’s announcement, which she acknowledged had “cast a shadow” over the inquiry. “Many FBI agents were upset at the director, not because he didn’t [recommend to] indict, but they believe he threw the FBI under the bus by taking the heat away from DoJ [Department of Justice],” the former bureau official said. All this has compounded pressure on Comey, with little end in sight. Jim Wedick, who retired from the bureau in 2004 after 35 years, said that if Clinton is elected, she and Comey would probably find a way to work together out of a sense of pragmatism. He recalled both his own occasional clashes with federal prosecutors and Bill Clinton’s uneasy relationship with his choice for FBI director, Louis Freeh. “Each one will find a way to pick at the other. It’s not going to be good and it’s not going to be pretty. But they’ll both have to work with each other,” he said. Senator Ron Wyden, an Oregon Democrat on the intelligence committee, said: “The continued leadership failures at the FBI are another reminder we can’t let intelligence agencies say ‘trust us’ and then give them a blank check to probe into Americans’ lives. “While I’ve argued for years that Congress must create ironclad protections for Americans’ security and privacy, we also need vigilant oversight of agencies that have the power to deprive citizens of their liberty or change the course of an election.” The FBI would not comment for this story. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
On November 04 2016 03:54 Plansix wrote: “There are lots of people who don’t think Trump is qualified, but also believe Clinton is corrupt. What you hear a lot is that it’s a bad choice, between an incompetent and a corrupt politician,” said a former FBI official. See, this is really the root of all the problems. We need to restore the status quo of not just one, but two corrupt politicians. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 04 2016 04:03 Tachion wrote: See, this is really the root of all the problems. We need to restore the status quo of not just one, but two corrupt politicians. What they believe can be handled by voting, not abusing their office in an attempt to sway voters with incomplete information or straight up lies. The FBI will be tainted for a decade or more after this. I want you to think if the IRS just decided to release Trumps tax returns against his will and justify it as providing information to the voters. And doing it a week before the election. The voters trusted them with access to that information with the understand that they wouldn’t abuse it. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On November 04 2016 04:07 Plansix wrote: What they believe can be handled by voting, not abusing their office in an attempt to sway voters with incomplete information or straight up lies. The FBI will be tainted for a decade or more after this. I want you to think if the IRS just decided to release Trumps tax returns against his will and justify it as providing information to the voters. And doing it a week before the election. The voters trusted them with access to that information with the understand that they wouldn’t abuse it. to be fair, the equivalent would be more like the IRS saying trump is under audit and that its looking bad vs. actually releasing his taxes | ||
KwarK
United States42985 Posts
On November 04 2016 03:57 Plansix wrote: If anyone wanted a preview of how the FBI/CIA/NSA will operate under Trump, you are getting it right now. Very McCarthy in nature. Trump said: I assume when I pick up my telephone, people are listening to my conversations anyway, you want to know the truth.... I err on the side of security. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
Remember, it is a myth that authoritarianism is unpopular. People fucking love quick solutions to complex, difficult problems. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On November 04 2016 03:34 oneofthem wrote: this wave of fbi leaks is extremely damaging for the institution. How about it's far more likely to be damaging for a corrupt Justice Department? | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21803 Posts
On November 04 2016 04:16 xDaunt wrote: I like how the operating assumption around here is that the FBI agents are going rogue for purely political reasons rather than they actually have actionable evidence that merits the investigation against the Clintons. Hilarious. Then they should go the Snowden way and just release the evidence to the press rather then what they are doing now. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On November 04 2016 04:18 Gorsameth wrote: Then they should go the Snowden way and just release the evidence to the press rather then what they are doing now. Why? They're conducting a valid investigation. You don't air your evidence mid-investigation. | ||
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Laurens
Belgium4547 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 04 2016 04:20 xDaunt wrote: Why? They're conducting a valid investigation. You don't air your evidence mid-investigation. It is also illegal to leak information in the attempt to sway an election. But I know you don’t really care about that. On November 04 2016 04:21 Laurens wrote: Ya, god forbid the FBI does its job correctly lol. What they are doing isn't their job and isn't allowed. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21803 Posts
On November 04 2016 04:20 xDaunt wrote: Why? They're conducting a valid investigation. You don't air your evidence mid-investigation. You said they have actionable evidence that merits an investigation. If they are being stonewalled while having good evidence then they can release this actionable evidence to the press. What they should not do is this shit where they just whisper out things, smearing a political candidate and the entire justice system without evidence being presented. | ||
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