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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On October 16 2013 09:32 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 08:24 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On October 16 2013 08:18 Nevuk wrote:On October 16 2013 08:12 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Jim Jordan on CNBC just now: conservative Republicans "won't support" a clean DL/CR, should Boehner bring up Thus Boehner needs to have Democratic support. So Boehner has two choices: His job, or the economic structure of the country even the world. I believe Pelosi has stated that she is fine with Boehner remaining speaker. Now, how long Boehner would remain in office/alive/a republican after being voted in as Speaker by a coalition of democrats and moderate republicans is something Boehner probably really is not trying to think about. It's not up to Pelosi if Boehner keeps his Speakership. Do you really think enough republicans would revolt against Boehner to have him lose his speakership if democrats voted to support him.
The democrats could save him, but it puts him in a really bad position politically. If it was only the more hardcore tea party republicans that bailed, then there could possibly be a deal where he gets 10-20 democratic votes for speaker if there was a legit tea party challenger. On the other hand, if the conservative/non-tea party group bails on him, its just not worth trying to save him as he won't have any power anyway and you would need a lot more votes. That said, I don't know if he would even stay speaker under those circumstances as it would be a huge embarrassment.
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On October 16 2013 10:36 DeltaX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 09:32 Adreme wrote:On October 16 2013 08:24 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On October 16 2013 08:18 Nevuk wrote:On October 16 2013 08:12 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Jim Jordan on CNBC just now: conservative Republicans "won't support" a clean DL/CR, should Boehner bring up Thus Boehner needs to have Democratic support. So Boehner has two choices: His job, or the economic structure of the country even the world. I believe Pelosi has stated that she is fine with Boehner remaining speaker. Now, how long Boehner would remain in office/alive/a republican after being voted in as Speaker by a coalition of democrats and moderate republicans is something Boehner probably really is not trying to think about. It's not up to Pelosi if Boehner keeps his Speakership. Do you really think enough republicans would revolt against Boehner to have him lose his speakership if democrats voted to support him. The democrats could save him, but it puts him in a really bad position politically. If it was only the more hardcore tea party republicans that bailed, then there could possibly be a deal where he gets 10-20 democratic votes for speaker if there was a legit tea party challenger. On the other hand, if the conservative/non-tea party group bails on him, its just not worth trying to save him as he won't have any power anyway and you would need a lot more votes. That said, I don't know if he would even stay speaker under those circumstances as it would be a huge embarrassment.
Oh democrats would completely consider it worth keeping him as speaker and im pretty sure Cantor still does not want to actually be speaker yet since that would mean he has to get attached to deals the tea party wont like so Boehner would probably only lose about half his caucus.
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I think Boehner will stay Speaker pretty much no matter what. It's just a question of how politically expedient the Democrats feel it is-- keep a guy in who is indebted to them (sort of) but is kind of universally hated, or let a new guy become Speaker with all the position's associated baggage. Boehner is pretty much done at this point, he can shove through a bipartisan bill and be hated by the Tea Party but have his good footnote in history, or he can keep waffling and end up next to Gingrich as another terrible Speaker.
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The office of Speaker Boehner told the office of Majority Leader Harry Reid's on Tuesday night that they would be willing to send them a "message" so that the procedural process of getting a debt limit and government funding bill could move faster.
The communication between the two was first reported by Salon's Brian Beutler and was confirmed by an aide to the Huffington Post. The aide said that the news was delivered after House Republican leadership failed to move their own bill to resolve the dual matters.
A message is a legislative vehicle that if sent from Boehner to the Senate would allow Reid to skip one cloture vote. This would ensure that if one Senator wanted to gum up the works, he or she could only force 30 hours of consideration.
Source
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On October 15 2013 07:09 DoubleReed wrote:From what I've seen about healthcare, there's a lot of scare tactics by the right wing saying how it triples the healthcare for this guy or that guy, like this article. Makes me think he has severe pre-existing conditions that were simply not covered by a plan. A lot of it seems to ignore the fact that a lot of insurance coverage was simply not there before. For some people, though, it appears they'll be able to get health insurance at less than a hundred a month. It also seems to vary wildly by state. But xDaunt is right about there being losers under Obamacare. That's how the law is designed. Younger, healthier, wealthier people pay more, while older, sicker, poorer people pay less. That's the whole fucking point of health insurance to begin with. Spreading the pain more is better for the economy. It should be noted that the group which are the "losers" of the bill is a smaller chunk than was originally predicted. But yea, that's what is supposed to happen. xDaunt's other article also takes North Carolina, which is one of the states that refused the Medicaid expansion, which was one of things that was supposed to drive down costs. Remember, the Medicaid expansion was supposed to be compulsory but the Supreme Court struck that down.
pretty good last point , forbes website are realy dirty and lying most of the time , they are not clearly lying if you read all the post they do, but plz people stop try to find info to place like that for make a points.....for exemple about the 300% increase , they have pick people of 40 year old ( WITH severve problem ) in north carolina and also of course make everything ( pick the cheapest current insurance ect ) for at the end say ' 300 % INCREASE..... that just lying to me at this point , that crazy how people change fact for make a points .......
since 2013 you cant take information from : media / newpapers / internet for facts , everyone lying..... and that worst in usa
so how to get good information ? you need look realy hard and read only fact from acticles....and come with your own view of the topic....
forbes are for republicains and are anti obamacare or anything who will make the rich pay money....
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edit : im realy sorry , did not know why it posted 2 time wow , big error
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On October 16 2013 13:06 quebecman77 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 07:09 DoubleReed wrote:From what I've seen about healthcare, there's a lot of scare tactics by the right wing saying how it triples the healthcare for this guy or that guy, like this article. Makes me think he has severe pre-existing conditions that were simply not covered by a plan. A lot of it seems to ignore the fact that a lot of insurance coverage was simply not there before. For some people, though, it appears they'll be able to get health insurance at less than a hundred a month. It also seems to vary wildly by state. But xDaunt is right about there being losers under Obamacare. That's how the law is designed. Younger, healthier, wealthier people pay more, while older, sicker, poorer people pay less. That's the whole fucking point of health insurance to begin with. Spreading the pain more is better for the economy. It should be noted that the group which are the "losers" of the bill is a smaller chunk than was originally predicted. But yea, that's what is supposed to happen. xDaunt's other article also takes North Carolina, which is one of the states that refused the Medicaid expansion, which was one of things that was supposed to drive down costs. Remember, the Medicaid expansion was supposed to be compulsory but the Supreme Court struck that down. pretty good last point , forbes website are realy dirty and lying most of the time , they are not clearly lying if you read all the post they do, but plz people stop try to find info to place like that for make a points.....for exemple about the 300% increase , they have pick people of 40 year old ( WITH severve problem ) in north carolina and also of course make everything ( pick the cheapest current insurance ect ) for at the end say ' 300 % INCREASE..... that just lying to me at this point , that crazy how people change fact for make a points ....... since 2013 you cant take information from : media / newpapers / internet for facts , everyone lying..... and that worst in usa so how to get good information ? you need look realy hard and read only fact from acticles....and come with your own view of the topic.... forbes are for republicains and are anti obamacare or anything who will make the rich pay money....
And many of the rest are for Obama and anti-anything the Republicans dream up in the interest of advancing sound fiscal policy or the freedoms of the individual. This will all be couched in denials to the contrary (and we never tire of hearing the myth that Obamacare was really a Republican idea that we're all blind to). The outlets like Fox News and Forbes get that tarried reputation from the left, while their stalwarts struggle to preserve the image of balanced coverage and an impartial look. All the stalwarts save for MSNBC, who I think have abandoned that idea several years ago.
By the way, what's with all this misdirection about defaulting on the debt? Save for some extraordinary stupid action by Obama, in violation of the 14th amendment, the debt gets serviced and not one payment on the debt is delayed or stopped. It's spending cuts and prioritization, but not default. Did some focus group come back saying that if you call it a default, more people will support a debt limit increase?
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On October 16 2013 07:48 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 07:39 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
So Boehner's plan has failed has he doesn't have enough votes to pass the house version of the debt limit extension. He is worthless. After all those presents if Democrats are not able to beat Reps and slam dunk the house they are about equally as worthless. Just my humble opinion as an interested spectator of this tragicomedy.
I think you underestimate how powerful gerrymandering is. The Republicans should of had no chance of losing the house for while with how strongly they have drew there districts. The fact that dems even have a shot at the house this early shows how much Republicans have messed up.
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So will Boehner fall on his sword?
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I get the feeling he would accept the democratic votes to keep the gavel (if it came to that), then possibly not run for re-election.
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its not his election, its about which think tank he ends up getting his six figure salary from. All these corporations that supported the GOP in the last cycle need to step up and offer him what he wants, a bribe so that the Tea Party can be marginalized.
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http://www.speaker.gov/press-release/statement-bipartisan-senate-agreement-reopen-government-avoid-default
The House has fought with everything it has to convince the president of the United States to engage in bipartisan negotiations aimed at addressing our country's debt and providing fairness for the American people under ObamaCare. That fight will continue. But blocking the bipartisan agreement reached today by the members of the Senate will not be a tactic for us. In addition to the risk of default, doing so would open the door for the Democratic majority in Washington to raise taxes again on the American people and undo the spending caps in the 2011 Budget Control Act without replacing them with better spending cuts. With our nation's economy still struggling under years of the president's policies, raising taxes is not a viable option. Our drive to stop the train wreck that is the president's health care law will continue. We will rely on aggressive oversight that highlights the law's massive flaws and smart, targeted strikes that split the legislative coalition the president has relied upon to force his health care law on the American people
and so finaly the shutdown ends. Next up Mid term elections!
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On October 17 2013 04:36 Sermokala wrote:http://www.speaker.gov/press-release/statement-bipartisan-senate-agreement-reopen-government-avoid-defaultShow nested quote +
The House has fought with everything it has to convince the president of the United States to engage in bipartisan negotiations aimed at addressing our country's debt and providing fairness for the American people under ObamaCare. That fight will continue. But blocking the bipartisan agreement reached today by the members of the Senate will not be a tactic for us. In addition to the risk of default, doing so would open the door for the Democratic majority in Washington to raise taxes again on the American people and undo the spending caps in the 2011 Budget Control Act without replacing them with better spending cuts. With our nation's economy still struggling under years of the president's policies, raising taxes is not a viable option. Our drive to stop the train wreck that is the president's health care law will continue. We will rely on aggressive oversight that highlights the law's massive flaws and smart, targeted strikes that split the legislative coalition the president has relied upon to force his health care law on the American people
and so finaly the shutdown ends. Next up Mid term elections!
No next up we do it all again in January and February.
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On October 17 2013 04:40 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 04:36 Sermokala wrote:http://www.speaker.gov/press-release/statement-bipartisan-senate-agreement-reopen-government-avoid-default
The House has fought with everything it has to convince the president of the United States to engage in bipartisan negotiations aimed at addressing our country's debt and providing fairness for the American people under ObamaCare. That fight will continue. But blocking the bipartisan agreement reached today by the members of the Senate will not be a tactic for us. In addition to the risk of default, doing so would open the door for the Democratic majority in Washington to raise taxes again on the American people and undo the spending caps in the 2011 Budget Control Act without replacing them with better spending cuts. With our nation's economy still struggling under years of the president's policies, raising taxes is not a viable option. Our drive to stop the train wreck that is the president's health care law will continue. We will rely on aggressive oversight that highlights the law's massive flaws and smart, targeted strikes that split the legislative coalition the president has relied upon to force his health care law on the American people
and so finaly the shutdown ends. Next up Mid term elections! No next up we do it all again in January and February.
Theres no way for it to happen again any time soon. what we saw was the last gasp of the tea party trying to connect funding the government to funding obamacare. any other time this happenes the senate republicans are just going to leave the house out in the cold while they cover their ass.
Really surprised that there was never a push for another name for obamacare. you'd really think that they'd create some name for the program that doesn't connect it to a guy who gives off the image of not careing.
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On October 17 2013 04:44 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 04:40 Adreme wrote:On October 17 2013 04:36 Sermokala wrote:http://www.speaker.gov/press-release/statement-bipartisan-senate-agreement-reopen-government-avoid-default
The House has fought with everything it has to convince the president of the United States to engage in bipartisan negotiations aimed at addressing our country's debt and providing fairness for the American people under ObamaCare. That fight will continue. But blocking the bipartisan agreement reached today by the members of the Senate will not be a tactic for us. In addition to the risk of default, doing so would open the door for the Democratic majority in Washington to raise taxes again on the American people and undo the spending caps in the 2011 Budget Control Act without replacing them with better spending cuts. With our nation's economy still struggling under years of the president's policies, raising taxes is not a viable option. Our drive to stop the train wreck that is the president's health care law will continue. We will rely on aggressive oversight that highlights the law's massive flaws and smart, targeted strikes that split the legislative coalition the president has relied upon to force his health care law on the American people
and so finaly the shutdown ends. Next up Mid term elections! No next up we do it all again in January and February. Theres no way for it to happen again any time soon. what we saw was the last gasp of the tea party trying to connect funding the government to funding obamacare. any other time this happenes the senate republicans are just going to leave the house out in the cold while they cover their ass. Really surprised that there was never a push for another name for obamacare. you'd really think that they'd create some name for the program that doesn't connect it to a guy who gives off the image of not careing.
The facts of the divide still have not changed though, republicans want to either defund the ACA (obamacare) which democrats have said no to or to go after entitlements which democrats wont do unless republicans put taxes on the table which again republicans said they wont do. The basic structure of the problem has not changes and the large faction of tea party republicans who will force Boehner to do it all over again aren't suddenly going to moderate in the next 2 months.
Also I think the president actually likes the name because he feels its going to be a success and having a law that you believe will be a success named after you is a good thing.
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On October 17 2013 04:44 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 04:40 Adreme wrote:On October 17 2013 04:36 Sermokala wrote:http://www.speaker.gov/press-release/statement-bipartisan-senate-agreement-reopen-government-avoid-default
The House has fought with everything it has to convince the president of the United States to engage in bipartisan negotiations aimed at addressing our country's debt and providing fairness for the American people under ObamaCare. That fight will continue. But blocking the bipartisan agreement reached today by the members of the Senate will not be a tactic for us. In addition to the risk of default, doing so would open the door for the Democratic majority in Washington to raise taxes again on the American people and undo the spending caps in the 2011 Budget Control Act without replacing them with better spending cuts. With our nation's economy still struggling under years of the president's policies, raising taxes is not a viable option. Our drive to stop the train wreck that is the president's health care law will continue. We will rely on aggressive oversight that highlights the law's massive flaws and smart, targeted strikes that split the legislative coalition the president has relied upon to force his health care law on the American people
and so finaly the shutdown ends. Next up Mid term elections! No next up we do it all again in January and February. Theres no way for it to happen again any time soon. what we saw was the last gasp of the tea party trying to connect funding the government to funding obamacare. any other time this happenes the senate republicans are just going to leave the house out in the cold while they cover their ass. Really surprised that there was never a push for another name for obamacare. you'd really think that they'd create some name for the program that doesn't connect it to a guy who gives off the image of not careing.
Yeah that's exactly the image he is giving... not "careing"
Micronesia had an interesting thing to say about why he thinks Dems let the Reps go through with the name Obamacare.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=430793¤tpage=35#683
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On October 17 2013 04:55 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 04:44 Sermokala wrote:On October 17 2013 04:40 Adreme wrote:On October 17 2013 04:36 Sermokala wrote:http://www.speaker.gov/press-release/statement-bipartisan-senate-agreement-reopen-government-avoid-default
The House has fought with everything it has to convince the president of the United States to engage in bipartisan negotiations aimed at addressing our country's debt and providing fairness for the American people under ObamaCare. That fight will continue. But blocking the bipartisan agreement reached today by the members of the Senate will not be a tactic for us. In addition to the risk of default, doing so would open the door for the Democratic majority in Washington to raise taxes again on the American people and undo the spending caps in the 2011 Budget Control Act without replacing them with better spending cuts. With our nation's economy still struggling under years of the president's policies, raising taxes is not a viable option. Our drive to stop the train wreck that is the president's health care law will continue. We will rely on aggressive oversight that highlights the law's massive flaws and smart, targeted strikes that split the legislative coalition the president has relied upon to force his health care law on the American people
and so finaly the shutdown ends. Next up Mid term elections! No next up we do it all again in January and February. Theres no way for it to happen again any time soon. what we saw was the last gasp of the tea party trying to connect funding the government to funding obamacare. any other time this happenes the senate republicans are just going to leave the house out in the cold while they cover their ass. Really surprised that there was never a push for another name for obamacare. you'd really think that they'd create some name for the program that doesn't connect it to a guy who gives off the image of not careing. The facts of the divide still have not changed though, republicans want to either defund the ACA (obamacare) which democrats have said no to or to go after entitlements which democrats wont do unless republicans put taxes on the table which again republicans said they wont do. The basic structure of the problem has not changes and the large faction of tea party republicans who will force Boehner to do it all over again aren't suddenly going to moderate in the next 2 months. Also I think the president actually likes the name because he feels its going to be a success and having a law that you believe will be a success named after you is a good thing.
Yeah, the real question is whether this disaster has cost the tea party extremists enough of their support within the Republican caucus. I get the impression that the senate Republicans have moved against them, but I'm not so sure about the house. Lots of moderates say disparaging things, but no one goes so far as to sign a discharge petition or something like that. Without those moderates really willing to break away from the extremists and push through compromise measures, nothing will happen.
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On October 17 2013 05:03 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 04:44 Sermokala wrote:On October 17 2013 04:40 Adreme wrote:On October 17 2013 04:36 Sermokala wrote:http://www.speaker.gov/press-release/statement-bipartisan-senate-agreement-reopen-government-avoid-default
The House has fought with everything it has to convince the president of the United States to engage in bipartisan negotiations aimed at addressing our country's debt and providing fairness for the American people under ObamaCare. That fight will continue. But blocking the bipartisan agreement reached today by the members of the Senate will not be a tactic for us. In addition to the risk of default, doing so would open the door for the Democratic majority in Washington to raise taxes again on the American people and undo the spending caps in the 2011 Budget Control Act without replacing them with better spending cuts. With our nation's economy still struggling under years of the president's policies, raising taxes is not a viable option. Our drive to stop the train wreck that is the president's health care law will continue. We will rely on aggressive oversight that highlights the law's massive flaws and smart, targeted strikes that split the legislative coalition the president has relied upon to force his health care law on the American people
and so finaly the shutdown ends. Next up Mid term elections! No next up we do it all again in January and February. Theres no way for it to happen again any time soon. what we saw was the last gasp of the tea party trying to connect funding the government to funding obamacare. any other time this happenes the senate republicans are just going to leave the house out in the cold while they cover their ass. Really surprised that there was never a push for another name for obamacare. you'd really think that they'd create some name for the program that doesn't connect it to a guy who gives off the image of not careing. Yeah that's exactly the image he is giving... not "careing" Micronesia had an interesting thing to say about why he thinks Dems let the Reps go through with the name Obamacare. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=430793¤tpage=35#683
It's reappropriation, and it's not a novel thing. Consider "Methodism"; it was also originally a pejorative, but few people remember that.
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On October 17 2013 05:05 aristarchus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 04:55 Adreme wrote:On October 17 2013 04:44 Sermokala wrote:On October 17 2013 04:40 Adreme wrote:On October 17 2013 04:36 Sermokala wrote:http://www.speaker.gov/press-release/statement-bipartisan-senate-agreement-reopen-government-avoid-default
The House has fought with everything it has to convince the president of the United States to engage in bipartisan negotiations aimed at addressing our country's debt and providing fairness for the American people under ObamaCare. That fight will continue. But blocking the bipartisan agreement reached today by the members of the Senate will not be a tactic for us. In addition to the risk of default, doing so would open the door for the Democratic majority in Washington to raise taxes again on the American people and undo the spending caps in the 2011 Budget Control Act without replacing them with better spending cuts. With our nation's economy still struggling under years of the president's policies, raising taxes is not a viable option. Our drive to stop the train wreck that is the president's health care law will continue. We will rely on aggressive oversight that highlights the law's massive flaws and smart, targeted strikes that split the legislative coalition the president has relied upon to force his health care law on the American people
and so finaly the shutdown ends. Next up Mid term elections! No next up we do it all again in January and February. Theres no way for it to happen again any time soon. what we saw was the last gasp of the tea party trying to connect funding the government to funding obamacare. any other time this happenes the senate republicans are just going to leave the house out in the cold while they cover their ass. Really surprised that there was never a push for another name for obamacare. you'd really think that they'd create some name for the program that doesn't connect it to a guy who gives off the image of not careing. The facts of the divide still have not changed though, republicans want to either defund the ACA (obamacare) which democrats have said no to or to go after entitlements which democrats wont do unless republicans put taxes on the table which again republicans said they wont do. The basic structure of the problem has not changes and the large faction of tea party republicans who will force Boehner to do it all over again aren't suddenly going to moderate in the next 2 months. Also I think the president actually likes the name because he feels its going to be a success and having a law that you believe will be a success named after you is a good thing. Yeah, the real question is whether this disaster has cost the tea party extremists enough of their support within the Republican caucus. I get the impression that the senate Republicans have moved against them, but I'm not so sure about the house. Lots of moderates say disparaging things, but no one goes so far as to sign a discharge petition or something like that. Without those moderates really willing to break away from the extremists and push through compromise measures, nothing will happen.
We're not going to know for another year how this all will shake out. There are only two possibilities. Either the Tea Party will be stamped out, or it will take over the Republican Party.
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On October 17 2013 05:14 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 05:03 Doublemint wrote:On October 17 2013 04:44 Sermokala wrote:On October 17 2013 04:40 Adreme wrote:On October 17 2013 04:36 Sermokala wrote:http://www.speaker.gov/press-release/statement-bipartisan-senate-agreement-reopen-government-avoid-default
The House has fought with everything it has to convince the president of the United States to engage in bipartisan negotiations aimed at addressing our country's debt and providing fairness for the American people under ObamaCare. That fight will continue. But blocking the bipartisan agreement reached today by the members of the Senate will not be a tactic for us. In addition to the risk of default, doing so would open the door for the Democratic majority in Washington to raise taxes again on the American people and undo the spending caps in the 2011 Budget Control Act without replacing them with better spending cuts. With our nation's economy still struggling under years of the president's policies, raising taxes is not a viable option. Our drive to stop the train wreck that is the president's health care law will continue. We will rely on aggressive oversight that highlights the law's massive flaws and smart, targeted strikes that split the legislative coalition the president has relied upon to force his health care law on the American people
and so finaly the shutdown ends. Next up Mid term elections! No next up we do it all again in January and February. Theres no way for it to happen again any time soon. what we saw was the last gasp of the tea party trying to connect funding the government to funding obamacare. any other time this happenes the senate republicans are just going to leave the house out in the cold while they cover their ass. Really surprised that there was never a push for another name for obamacare. you'd really think that they'd create some name for the program that doesn't connect it to a guy who gives off the image of not careing. Yeah that's exactly the image he is giving... not "careing" Micronesia had an interesting thing to say about why he thinks Dems let the Reps go through with the name Obamacare. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=430793¤tpage=35#683 It's reappropriation, and it's not a novel thing. Consider "Methodism"; it was also originally a pejorative, but few people remember that.
It's not a novel thing agreed, though usually Republicans are way more effective in getting their message across and now it seems that in the long run, their creation "Obamacare" does not have as many negative connotations as it used to have.
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