EPTI mean I get both your points, but you seem to be arguing that everyone should just be resigned to the fact that their votes don't matter and their interests wont be served because they don't have enough money to bribe people with. Seems odd that you recognize the issue but rail against doing anything about it.
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 5386
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Kickstart
United States1941 Posts
I mean I get both your points, but you seem to be arguing that everyone should just be resigned to the fact that their votes don't matter and their interests wont be served because they don't have enough money to bribe people with. Seems odd that you recognize the issue but rail against doing anything about it. | ||
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JW_DTLA
242 Posts
On October 08 2016 18:41 GreenHorizons wrote: At that point you're not cheering for the "good guys" you're just hoping the bad guys you're cheering for aren't as bad. What do you think about the Keystone Pipeline? On the merits, good or bad? Guess what, it was only stopped because Billionaire Tom Steyer bankrolled its opposition and Big-Old-Neoliberal-Sell-Out Barack Obama opposed it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Steyer | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21364 Posts
On October 08 2016 18:41 GreenHorizons wrote: At that point you're not cheering for the "good guys" you're just hoping the bad guys you're cheering for aren't as bad. Martyring yourself when no one is going to give 2 shits can be a morally sound choice if there is little at stake (or just something for you personally). When your talking about governmental power over the USA its utterly stupid and losing is going to cost you a whole lot more then you will lose by giving 'big money' some power. Go ask your gay friends who can now marry, your female friends who can get an abortion, your black friends, if your moral high ground is worth the cost. | ||
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JW_DTLA
242 Posts
On October 08 2016 18:44 Kickstart wrote: So your argument is that there is nothing to be done about it, just accept it and move on? The system is supposed to be each person has a vote and thus everyone's vote is equal, but now dollars are votes and those with the most money are the ones who get represented. I mean I get both your points, but you seem to be arguing that everyone should just be resigned to the fact that their votes don't matter and their interests wont be served because they don't have enough money to bribe people with. Seems odd that you recognize the issue but rail against doing anything about it. So this whole "everyone's vote is equal" business is not reality. Check out the constitution and the electoral college. Slaves were initially 3/5 of people for white electoral power purposes but couldn't vote. The idea that "everyone's vote is equal" is a deeply liberal notion that liberal politicians have struggled to achieve for generations. Each generation has made this truer (except the boomers who are scum). First it was universal white male sufferage. Then it was black men voting. Then it was women voting (but then it was Jim Crow and Segregation). Then we had the VRA and Civil Rights Acts (passed by big sell out LBJ who was a deep racist and corporatist). Now we have toxic Voter ID laws with endless DMV loops to deny poor blacks the ability to vote and billionaires pouring unlimited funds into campaigns. What I am saying is, look at progress relative to reality. Democrats like HRC have endlessly struggled on the side of progress as it was in reality at the time. GreenHorizons imagines that we can get this giant liberal result without engaging in the political reality that exists. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22720 Posts
On October 08 2016 18:45 JW_DTLA wrote: What do you think about the Keystone Pipeline? On the merits, good or bad? Guess what, it was only stopped because Billionaire Tom Steyer bankrolled its opposition and Big-Old-Neoliberal-Sell-Out Barack Obama opposed it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Steyer Well, they are suing the US as a result, made possible by... You guessed it, NAFTA. And yes, there are similar provisions in TPP. So now a struggling TransCanada is looking at a potential $15 billion payout for essentially creating nothing but headaches. Politics is magic. On October 08 2016 18:47 Gorsameth wrote: Martyring yourself when no one is going to give 2 shits can be a morally sound choice if there is little at stake (or just something for you personally). When your talking about governmental power over the USA its utterly stupid and losing is going to cost you a whole lot more then you will lose by giving 'big money' some power. Go ask your gay friends who can now marry, your female friends who can get an abortion, your black friends, if your moral high ground is worth the cost. America's democracy will die with an enthusiastic "but it could be worse!" | ||
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JW_DTLA
242 Posts
America's democracy will die with an enthusiastic "but it could be worse!" I hope your lack of enthusiasm for Barack and Hillary's incremental progress fills you with self satisfaction because Paul Ryan's plan is going to do actual wrecking damage. If you believe in Liberal values (something I personally doubt), then you should check out how Paul Ryan would demolish our social contract and toss every liberal program out within days of Trump getting sworn in: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/10/paul-ryan-is-planning-a-revolution-and-it-starts-in-january.html Trump and House Republicans have proposed different tax plans, but they are largely in sync on major principles. Both would cut the top tax rate for individuals to 33 percent from the current 39.6 percent. The corporate rate would drop to 15 percent under Trump’s plan and 20 percent under the House GOP plan, from 35 percent today. Both plans also would drain federal coffers of several trillion dollars and give the biggest boost to the wealthy. By the end of the decade, the richest 1 percent would have accumulated 99.6 percent of the benefits of the House GOP plan, according to the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21364 Posts
On October 08 2016 18:44 Kickstart wrote: So your argument is that there is nothing to be done about it, just accept it and move on? The system is supposed to be each person has a vote and thus everyone's vote is equal, but now dollars are votes and those with the most money are the ones who get represented. I mean I get both your points, but you seem to be arguing that everyone should just be resigned to the fact that their votes don't matter and their interests wont be served because they don't have enough money to bribe people with. Seems odd that you recognize the issue but rail against doing anything about it. For one the US system isnt even close to 1 man 1 vote. Due to FPTP elections you routinely ignore 40-50% of votes. I recognize the issue and I'm not railing against doing anything about it but I understand what is required to actually do something about it. Needlessly sacrificing yourself on the alter of morality does nothing for your cause and actively damages it when the other side wins. If one side declares it will not use guns in a war and the other side doesn't your going to have a very short war. In order to remove 'big money' you have to introduce legislation that outlaws it and the only way you can do that is by being in power to begin with. Now I understand that this is very unlikely to happen, but that is the problem with letting big money in in the first place. But martyring yourself is not going to accomplish anything either. It will accomplish less, by handing control to the other side. At this point the US is stuck waiting for enough social awareness/unrest to force a 'revolution' to overturn 'big money'. Same with FPTP. | ||
Evotroid
Hungary176 Posts
On October 08 2016 18:56 GreenHorizons wrote: Well, they are suing the US as a result, made possible by... You guessed it, NAFTA. And yes, there are similar provisions in TPP. So now a struggling TransCanada is looking at a potential $15 billion payout for essentially creating nothing but headaches. Politics is magic. America's democracy will die with an enthusiastic "but it could be worse!" I think it will end with "if I can't have my way, then might as well let it die" | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28558 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28558 Posts
But a LOT of people have been cheated on or have somehow been hurt by cheating, and while people can also accept and forgive singular offenses, he just doesn't seem to give a single shit about her being married or himself being married. This isn't just something that offends leftists, the homewrecking anti-family values he's espousing strongly offends the core republican base. | ||
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Kickstart
United States1941 Posts
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biology]major
United States2253 Posts
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farvacola
United States18818 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21364 Posts
On October 08 2016 21:27 farvacola wrote: There's a good chance that Trump won't even attend. Not attending is worse then showing up and losing hard. There is only one narrative to Trump skipping now. And thats him running away | ||
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farvacola
United States18818 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28558 Posts
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farvacola
United States18818 Posts
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
And, perhaps more importantly, I don't think he would ever do this. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On October 08 2016 21:27 farvacola wrote: There's a good chance that Trump won't even attend. I dunno, it seems kinda out of character. I think Trump would rather attend and behave grossly, attacking Clinton's personal life etc, than run away. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7811 Posts
On October 08 2016 19:13 Evotroid wrote: I think it will end with "if I can't have my way, then might as well let it die" The reason the right wins is because they can make the difference between something not great and something disastrous (in their opinion). In that respect they show more political maturity than the liberals who for whom often "moderate left = far right" (the famous gh equation). Now the really special thing about this emection is that, while the left has it's right wibg's useful idiots, a lot of right winger start to realize that even with all the disagreement they might have with Clinton, it might be that they really can not vote for Trump because he is just an exceptionally bad and dangerous candidate. | ||
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