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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On September 29 2016 13:27 oBlade wrote: It will be nice to have a new American family, probably the most potential since the Kennedys, and break up this absurd Clinton/Bush dynasty. The Bush dynasty is hopefully over after the thrashing that Trump gave Jeb. | ||
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Leporello
United States2845 Posts
One was/is clearly better than the other. | ||
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RuiBarbO
United States1340 Posts
On September 29 2016 13:27 oBlade wrote: It will be nice to have a new American family, probably the most potential since the Kennedys, and break up this absurd Clinton/Bush dynasty. The Obamas? | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On September 29 2016 13:50 LegalLord wrote: I wonder how Obama will be remembered as a president. His healthcare bill is probably his biggest achievement, but other than that he really didn't stand out all that much - neither in a good nor a bad way. Which I suppose is the sign of a good president, but not necessarily a "great" one. He is a great orator though. depends if his foreign policy efforts bear fruit - iran, cuba, myanmar got OBL plus the minimal amount of fuck ups is fairly noteworthy | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On September 29 2016 09:05 Doodsmack wrote: On the bright side, maybe we'll get Paul Ryan and Mark Cuban running in 2020. They seem like better candidates at least. Paul Ryan is a vapid shell of a man who just does whatever other people tell him to do. It showed in 2012 and it would show again in 2020; I'll be amazed if he can shake off the stink of the utter failure he was as a V.P. pick (including a total dumpstering and destruction of his "policy wonk" status against Biden). | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On September 29 2016 13:53 ticklishmusic wrote: depends if his foreign policy efforts bear fruit - iran, cuba, myanmar got OBL plus the minimal amount of fuck ups is fairly noteworthy On the other hand - Syria, Libya, ISIS, Ukraine, Brexit. I think his FP is mostly above average but people might not see him quite so highly depending upon what people emphasize 20-30 years from now. Domestic policy record is mostly solid though. Nothing amazing though - just an average recovery while the rest of the world has a subpar recovery. Also trade deals. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On September 29 2016 13:58 TheTenthDoc wrote: Paul Ryan is a vapid shell of a man who just does whatever other people tell him to do. It showed in 2012 and it would show again in 2020; I'll be amazed if he can shake off the stink of the utter failure he was as a V.P. pick (including a total dumpstering and destruction of his "policy wonk" status against Biden). For me at least, Biden completely destroyed Ryan's credibility as a presidential candidate. That debate was "tied" and split along party lines but Ryan showed that he's a con artist who lies a lot, like most other Republicans in the modern party. | ||
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Erik.TheRed
United States1655 Posts
On September 29 2016 13:50 LegalLord wrote: I wonder how Obama will be remembered as a president. His healthcare bill is probably his biggest achievement, but other than that he really didn't stand out all that much - neither in a good nor a bad way. Which I suppose is the sign of a good president, but not necessarily a "great" one. He is a great orator though. The economic recovery is also something that shouldn't be understated. I don't think people quite comprehend the gravitas of it in-the-moment, but under his leadership we have (largely) trudged out of an insanely shitty market. The stimulus, JOBS act, Dodd-Frank, etc. were all very significant achievements. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On September 29 2016 14:04 LegalLord wrote: On the other hand - Syria, Libya, ISIS, Ukraine, Brexit. I think his FP is mostly above average but people might not see him quite so highly depending upon what people emphasize 20-30 years from now. Domestic policy record is mostly solid though. Nothing amazing though - just an average recovery while the rest of the world has a subpar recovery. Also trade deals. I wouldn't place undue blame on him for the first 3, they're are just part of the latest episode of the Middle East being a shitshow. Maybe in a few years (or a longer timeframe) the chips fall more favorably, or they don't. I'm bullish on a more secular Iran and them becoming a regional power that allows the US to reduce our reliance on the Saudis and Israelis. I'm hard-pressed to see how Brexit is his fault. Not too sure about Ukraine, though I largely agree w/ KwarK that it's a rather silly waste of scarce treasure for Russia who we've been sanctioning heavily. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
Now, we all know that Trump has no ability to meaningfully interpret polling information (or information at all). But this is a new low for the man. Does this mean he's going to use the same strategy at the next debate? If so his supporters might have fucked him over by spamming the online polls. | ||
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hunts
United States2113 Posts
On September 29 2016 14:04 LegalLord wrote: On the other hand - Syria, Libya, ISIS, Ukraine, Brexit. I think his FP is mostly above average but people might not see him quite so highly depending upon what people emphasize 20-30 years from now. Domestic policy record is mostly solid though. Nothing amazing though - just an average recovery while the rest of the world has a subpar recovery. Also trade deals. Am I misremembering, or were you one of the people saying there were no russian soldiers in ukraine and that the US shouldn't do anything about it, at the time of russia taking over crimea? If it wasn't you then I apologize. | ||
KwarK
United States44279 Posts
On September 29 2016 14:12 TheTenthDoc wrote: So-it looks like Trump might actually believe the online poll results showing he won the debate are credible. Now, we all know that Trump has no ability to meaningfully interpret polling information (or information at all). But this is a new low for the man. Does this mean he's going to use the same strategy at the next debate? If so his supporters might have fucked him over by spamming the online polls. With the amount he complained about microphones, the moderator, Hillary wearing a wire and so forth I think it's pretty clear that he was unhappy with the result. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On September 29 2016 14:13 hunts wrote: Am I misremembering, or were you one of the people saying there were no russian soldiers in ukraine and that the US shouldn't do anything about it, at the time of russia taking over crimea? If it wasn't you then I apologize. I was one of the "maybe there are, maybe there aren't, but Ukraine's government is exaggerating the extent of Russian involvement" people. Which is more or less what happened - lots of volunteers came from Russia but only a small contingency of Russian army regulars. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On September 29 2016 14:08 Erik.TheRed wrote: The economic recovery is also something that shouldn't be understated. I don't think people quite comprehend the gravitas of it in-the-moment, but under his leadership we have (largely) trudged out of an insanely shitty market. The stimulus, JOBS act, Dodd-Frank, etc. were all very significant achievements. Also killing bin laden, getting out of iraq, longest job growth in history, low gas prices, increased funding to clean energy, his famous speeches, the shift to drone technology warfare to decrease military deaths without decreasing political intervention, etc... He's on the best presidents of all time and will be remembered as such once all the racists die off among the liberals. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On September 29 2016 14:09 ticklishmusic wrote: I wouldn't place undue blame on him for the first 3, they're are just part of the latest episode of the Middle East being a shitshow. Maybe in a few years (or a longer timeframe) the chips fall more favorably, or they don't. I'm bullish on a more secular Iran and them becoming a regional power that allows the US to reduce our reliance on the Saudis and Israelis. I'm hard-pressed to see how Brexit is his fault. Not too sure about Ukraine, though I largely agree w/ KwarK that it's a rather silly waste of scarce treasure for Russia who we've been sanctioning heavily. I don't hold the ME crises too strongly against Obama - he isn't really an FP president and he mostly made the best of an aggressive advisory. These events did transpire during his presidency, and they did end up being blunders, so it's not to his credit. Also the red line in Syria. Though personally I blame Hillary more for these. Without looking at it from a Russian perspective, Ukraine is a mess of a country and the likelihood is very large that the effort there will just end as a stupid waste of money and political capital. The US expended a lot of credibility pushing that (having to coerce a lot of countries into pushing for the sanctions against Russia etc.) and in a few decades people may wonder if the result was really worth that effort. The result may very well just be that Ukraine oscillates back into the Russian sphere of influence or splits in two, and what good will that be? Also it fucked relations with Russia and that could really, really be bad for US interests if Russia were to decide to be spiteful (e.g. backing out on Iran deal). Brexit, Obama didn't cause it but he acted badly. "Back of the queue" was a blunder on his part. Not only might it have convinced some voters to vote Leave but it also did hurt US-British relations to some degree. | ||
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OuchyDathurts
United States4588 Posts
On September 29 2016 14:18 KwarK wrote: With the amount he complained about microphones, the moderator, Hillary wearing a wire and so forth I think it's pretty clear that he was unhappy with the result. Maybe he thinks he did great and without the crooked lame stream media stacking the deck against him at the debate he would have been at 100% in the polls. Have you seen the conspiracy theory videos of Hillary "signalling" Lester Holt? Oh man the delusion is fantastic. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18432 Posts
www.vox.com | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4446 Posts
On September 29 2016 14:04 LegalLord wrote: On the other hand - Syria, Libya, ISIS, Ukraine, Brexit. I think his FP is mostly above average but people might not see him quite so highly depending upon what people emphasize 20-30 years from now. Domestic policy record is mostly solid though. Nothing amazing though - just an average recovery while the rest of the world has a subpar recovery. Also trade deals. Obamacare is collapsing, the mans legacy will not be anywhere near as rosy as some here suggest. Even left pro-establishment rags like The Washington Post admit as such : Obamacare disaster will be Obamas enduring domestic legacy https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/obamacare-disaster-will-be-obamas-enduring-domestic-legacy/2016/04/25/a8c09b38-0ae4-11e6-8ab8-9ad050f76d7d_story.html?utm_term=.8c09c0d4f4d4 CNBC - Obamacare unsustainable http://www.cnbc.com/2016/08/17/obamacare-is-unsustainable--the-backbone-could-collapse-expert-warns.html Laszewski has worked in the insurance business for over 40 years, including 25 within the Washington D.C. area, where he started his own consulting business that specializes in market and health-care policy. Clients include hospitals, physician's offices and insurance companies. His concerns for Obamacare stem from what he says are repetitive situations in each state. The issues cited by Aetna over Obamacare losses are now being echoed in multiple states by almost every company, he said. "State after state, we are seeing exactly the same scenario; losses deteriorating … deteriorating conditions and carriers not being able to continue in the long term." And a reminder : Obamacare hikes take place November 1st - a week before the election.Double digit increases in many states..... http://www.politico.com/story/2016/04/obamacare-rate-hikes-a-looming-political-headache-for-democrats-222663 Obamacare's November surprise Many consumers will see large rate increases for the first time Nov. 1 — a week before they go to the polls. “I think a lot of insurance carriers expected red ink, but they didn’t expect this much red ink,” said Greg Scott, who oversees Deloitte’s health plans practice. "A number of carriers need double-digit increases.” | ||
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Falling
Canada11605 Posts
There's plenty of temporary measures that nobody remembers the growing pains because the follow up was committed to making it work in another way and so the current system is stable. (Early attempts at public healthcare in Canada was entirely backed by the provinces who lacked the revenues, but rather than walking away from it, the federal government stepped in with block transfer payments provided the provinces meet the requirements of the Canada Health Act. | ||
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