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On August 06 2016 08:19 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2016 08:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 06 2016 08:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 06 2016 08:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 06 2016 08:01 KwarK wrote:On August 06 2016 08:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 06 2016 07:55 Nyxisto wrote:
No, alternative medicine is not an option instead of chemotherapy or any diseases that (western) medicine can't handle. That is absolutely ridiculous. There's also no 'balance' to be had in this discussion. To talk to a practionicer of the stuff about its effects makes as much as sense as talking to a Scientology member about Scientology. There's no legitimate alternative medicine community.
Yes, chemotherapy can ruin your quality of life, the advantage is of course that you continue to live. Let's step away from chemo and think for a moment about something like back pain, does that change your opinion? Or do you really think there is nothing in the realm of "alternative medicine" that may work better than the typical xray and opiates most people get in the US? If it works better, great, test it, prove it, turn it into medicine. To both your and Moh's point, sometimes that's easier said than done. Like the medical industry and medical science aren't always aligned. That's why I used the cannabis example in the first place. Point being that sometimes medicine isn't considered "medicine" not because it's not "medicine", but because people don't want it to be seen as medicine. Cannabis is just one we can follow pretty well along it's path to becoming medicine (even if Hillary doesn't believe it yet). And that's a fine point, but that's not the original point you were making- that cannabis is either homeopathic or that it's considered "alternative medicine". When do you think cannabis went from being "alternative medicine" to being "medicine"? When it was legalized for medical use in several US states, I would guess.
Yet the federal government insists it's not medicine?
Schedule I drugs, substances, or chemicals are defined as drugs with no currently accepted medical use
www.dea.gov
When you answer how we have something you all insist is medicine, and has been for more than a decade, defined by our government as "not medicine" I think you find your answer to why the idea that "if it works, it's medicine" is sorely lacking.
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the regulators taking a bad stance on pot doesn't validate the idea of 'alternative medicine' which is inherently flawed.
The difference between medicine and all other forms of alternative medicine is the methodology they use to figure out whether a drug works or not. What drugs the government allows you to take is unrelated.
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On August 06 2016 08:30 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2016 08:19 Nevuk wrote:On August 06 2016 08:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 06 2016 08:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 06 2016 08:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 06 2016 08:01 KwarK wrote:On August 06 2016 08:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 06 2016 07:55 Nyxisto wrote:
No, alternative medicine is not an option instead of chemotherapy or any diseases that (western) medicine can't handle. That is absolutely ridiculous. There's also no 'balance' to be had in this discussion. To talk to a practionicer of the stuff about its effects makes as much as sense as talking to a Scientology member about Scientology. There's no legitimate alternative medicine community.
Yes, chemotherapy can ruin your quality of life, the advantage is of course that you continue to live. Let's step away from chemo and think for a moment about something like back pain, does that change your opinion? Or do you really think there is nothing in the realm of "alternative medicine" that may work better than the typical xray and opiates most people get in the US? If it works better, great, test it, prove it, turn it into medicine. To both your and Moh's point, sometimes that's easier said than done. Like the medical industry and medical science aren't always aligned. That's why I used the cannabis example in the first place. Point being that sometimes medicine isn't considered "medicine" not because it's not "medicine", but because people don't want it to be seen as medicine. Cannabis is just one we can follow pretty well along it's path to becoming medicine (even if Hillary doesn't believe it yet). And that's a fine point, but that's not the original point you were making- that cannabis is either homeopathic or that it's considered "alternative medicine". When do you think cannabis went from being "alternative medicine" to being "medicine"? When it was legalized for medical use in several US states, I would guess. Yet the federal government insists it's not medicine? Show nested quote +Schedule I drugs, substances, or chemicals are defined as drugs with no currently accepted medical use www.dea.govWhen you answer how we have something you all insist is medicine, and has been for more than a decade, defined by our government as "not medicine" I think you find your answer to why the idea that "if it works, it's medicine" is sorely lacking.
As people have told you numerous times. The pharmaceutical industry (or in this case the government) is not synonyms with the medical community.
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On August 06 2016 06:49 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2016 06:34 Adreme wrote:On August 06 2016 06:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 06 2016 06:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 06 2016 06:09 Dan HH wrote:I can't take the Greens seriously when they have this shit in their party platform We support the teaching, funding and practice of holistic health approaches and, as appropriate, the use of complementary and alternative therapies such as herbal medicines, homeopathy, naturopathy, traditional Chinese medicine and other healing approaches. http://www.gp.org/social_justice/#sjHealthCare I agree, and the three Jill Stein supporters who I have spoken to about this, all basically say the same thing: "Alternative medicine can possibly work so why not keep the option on the table?" To which I give them several studies rejecting that their results are anything more meaningful than simple placebo effect at best, and then I paraphrase Tim Minchin: Alternative medicine, by definition, has either not been proved to work or been proved not to work. Do you know what we call the stuff that actually works? Medicine. Tim Minchin's "Storm": + Show Spoiler + I wouldn't hate on placebo's, I'd take a chance at the placebo effect over no hope any day. Cannabis is still considered "homeopathy" by many in the medical field, so forgive me if I think they are often full of it, ignorant, or just flat out stupid for sake of their previous positions. What they consider and what studies can prove are 2 entirely different things. People study alternative medicines to see if they work and if they did they would not be alternative they would just be, as was said before, medicine. Except that's not what happens. Not to mention rarely is it considered that some treatments may not work for a majority but be very effective for a minority with a particular set of afflictions. I don't really want to get into the debate around all of "alternative medicine" which specifically with the example of cannabis has nothing to do with the issues you describe because the research has been intentionally and maliciously restricted for decades. Which is to say the process you describe is in fact not what has happened with a specific example. But holy crap I can't believe how wrapped up in western "medicine" folks are. I mean you all are familiar with how we got here right? I mean I've seen the religious fervor for science before, but never such a strong rally around western medicine, as if it's not full of absurdities. Like did we all miss the opiate issue? That's a pretty fresh screw up from the pharmaceutical/medical industry that stands as a pretty glaring example of how this whole notion of "medicine" is lacking some serious nuance. EDIT: Show nested quote +On August 06 2016 06:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 06 2016 06:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 06 2016 06:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 06 2016 06:09 Dan HH wrote:I can't take the Greens seriously when they have this shit in their party platform We support the teaching, funding and practice of holistic health approaches and, as appropriate, the use of complementary and alternative therapies such as herbal medicines, homeopathy, naturopathy, traditional Chinese medicine and other healing approaches. http://www.gp.org/social_justice/#sjHealthCare I agree, and the three Jill Stein supporters who I have spoken to about this, all basically say the same thing: "Alternative medicine can possibly work so why not keep the option on the table?" To which I give them several studies rejecting that their results are anything more meaningful than simple placebo effect at best, and then I paraphrase Tim Minchin: Alternative medicine, by definition, has either not been proved to work or been proved not to work. Do you know what we call the stuff that actually works? Medicine. Tim Minchin's "Storm": + Show Spoiler + I wouldn't hate on placebo's, I'd take a chance at the placebo effect over no hope any day. Cannabis is still considered "homeopathy" by many in the medical field, so forgive me if I think they are often full of it, ignorant, or just flat out stupid for sake of their previous positions. That doesn't make any sense to me; homeopathy is the process by diluting an already-negligible amount of a treatment in disproportionately high amounts of water, with the (obviously backwards) expectation that by having such a small dose of a drug, it magically becomes exponentially more powerful. It's like taking a teaspoon of sugar, dumping it in the ocean, waiting a week for the "mixture" to mix properly via the tide, and then taking a sip of the ocean and expecting to taste the world's most sugary water. That's not at all what medicinal marijuana is, and the taboo against marijuana is from the "it's a dangerous drug" misconception, not "the only way it's effective is if it's introduced homeopathically" statement. lol alright, I actually didn't remember "homeopathy" referred to a specific type of treatment (I had heard it used so often as just a synonym for "alternative medicine" and hadn't bothered to look it up, though I vaguely remember learning about it at some point). I'm not crazy so I think that's probably 99.99% (and .01% of stumbling on something helpful) bullshit. I'd be letting "as appropriate" do a lot of work in that particular phrase but if she was out selling some BS product I'm not sure I could defend that. I think Ticklish made the point before, but kudos to the folks here mounting a better counter argument to Jill than I've encountered up till now. She's still miles ahead of Hillary for me but she did lose a little ground to "none of the above" 
"Western medicine" is just scientifically-based medicine. Anything that "alternative medicine" does that is empirically verified is used in "Western medicine".
You're critiques are like those people that try to say that "science is a religion" to legitimize their religious thoughts about scientific matters. It's a fundamental misunderstanding of what "western medicine" is.
The big difference between "western medicine" and "alternative medicine" is that the latter is more like a religion where they refuse to accept empirical evidence and just practice on dogma, whereas the former reacts to the things it gets wrong.
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On August 06 2016 08:30 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2016 08:19 Nevuk wrote:On August 06 2016 08:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 06 2016 08:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 06 2016 08:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 06 2016 08:01 KwarK wrote:On August 06 2016 08:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 06 2016 07:55 Nyxisto wrote:
No, alternative medicine is not an option instead of chemotherapy or any diseases that (western) medicine can't handle. That is absolutely ridiculous. There's also no 'balance' to be had in this discussion. To talk to a practionicer of the stuff about its effects makes as much as sense as talking to a Scientology member about Scientology. There's no legitimate alternative medicine community.
Yes, chemotherapy can ruin your quality of life, the advantage is of course that you continue to live. Let's step away from chemo and think for a moment about something like back pain, does that change your opinion? Or do you really think there is nothing in the realm of "alternative medicine" that may work better than the typical xray and opiates most people get in the US? If it works better, great, test it, prove it, turn it into medicine. To both your and Moh's point, sometimes that's easier said than done. Like the medical industry and medical science aren't always aligned. That's why I used the cannabis example in the first place. Point being that sometimes medicine isn't considered "medicine" not because it's not "medicine", but because people don't want it to be seen as medicine. Cannabis is just one we can follow pretty well along it's path to becoming medicine (even if Hillary doesn't believe it yet). And that's a fine point, but that's not the original point you were making- that cannabis is either homeopathic or that it's considered "alternative medicine". When do you think cannabis went from being "alternative medicine" to being "medicine"? When it was legalized for medical use in several US states, I would guess. Yet the federal government insists it's not medicine? Show nested quote +Schedule I drugs, substances, or chemicals are defined as drugs with no currently accepted medical use www.dea.govWhen you answer how we have something you all insist is medicine, and has been for more than a decade, defined by our government as "not medicine" I think you find your answer to why the idea that "if it works, it's medicine" is sorely lacking.
You are using a government definition as a replacement for scientific consensus. That's totally insane. Science has recognized the effects of cannabis forms very long time. Similarly, the science investigating alternative medicines has a long history.
The us government disagrees with scientific consensus on the issue of cannabis. Jill Stein disagrees with scientific consensus as well.
Why are you even bringing up the us government? Is it totally unrelated to the topic. The us government is not related to scientific consensus
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scheduling marijuana is the DEA. its an unfortunate fact of reality that (i) things arent perfect and (ii) lobbying, politicking plays a role in addition to just pure science based decisionmaking. marijuana is stuck in a bit of an awkward catch 22 that makes research hard.
FDA does a pretty good job determining if drugs are safe generally though. medical devices approved in the US are like 1/3 as likely to have safety recalls or problems as stuff approved in the EU.
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On August 06 2016 08:30 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2016 08:19 Nevuk wrote:On August 06 2016 08:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 06 2016 08:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 06 2016 08:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 06 2016 08:01 KwarK wrote:On August 06 2016 08:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 06 2016 07:55 Nyxisto wrote:
No, alternative medicine is not an option instead of chemotherapy or any diseases that (western) medicine can't handle. That is absolutely ridiculous. There's also no 'balance' to be had in this discussion. To talk to a practionicer of the stuff about its effects makes as much as sense as talking to a Scientology member about Scientology. There's no legitimate alternative medicine community.
Yes, chemotherapy can ruin your quality of life, the advantage is of course that you continue to live. Let's step away from chemo and think for a moment about something like back pain, does that change your opinion? Or do you really think there is nothing in the realm of "alternative medicine" that may work better than the typical xray and opiates most people get in the US? If it works better, great, test it, prove it, turn it into medicine. To both your and Moh's point, sometimes that's easier said than done. Like the medical industry and medical science aren't always aligned. That's why I used the cannabis example in the first place. Point being that sometimes medicine isn't considered "medicine" not because it's not "medicine", but because people don't want it to be seen as medicine. Cannabis is just one we can follow pretty well along it's path to becoming medicine (even if Hillary doesn't believe it yet). And that's a fine point, but that's not the original point you were making- that cannabis is either homeopathic or that it's considered "alternative medicine". When do you think cannabis went from being "alternative medicine" to being "medicine"? When it was legalized for medical use in several US states, I would guess. Yet the federal government insists it's not medicine? Show nested quote +Schedule I drugs, substances, or chemicals are defined as drugs with no currently accepted medical use www.dea.govWhen you answer how we have something you all insist is medicine, and has been for more than a decade, defined by our government as "not medicine" I think you find your answer to why the idea that "if it works, it's medicine" is sorely lacking.
I feel like you're conflating what the medical community has appropriately researched and either accepted or rejected as medicine, with what the government wants to legalize or ban.
For example, the medical community has properly researched homeopathy and has rejected it as pseudoscience. That being said, homeopathic "medicine" can still legally be purchased because the government allows it, but it's actually "alternative medicine" because it's complete bullshit.
Similarly, it appears as if many medical reports and scientific studies validate and condone the use of medicinal marijuana for certain things; however, the government and politicians may not want to legalize medicinal marijuana due to taboo and misconceptions that they have about the drug. That doesn't mean that medicinal marijuana is medically grouped with pseudoscience.
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On August 06 2016 08:30 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2016 08:19 Nevuk wrote:On August 06 2016 08:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 06 2016 08:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 06 2016 08:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 06 2016 08:01 KwarK wrote:On August 06 2016 08:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 06 2016 07:55 Nyxisto wrote:
No, alternative medicine is not an option instead of chemotherapy or any diseases that (western) medicine can't handle. That is absolutely ridiculous. There's also no 'balance' to be had in this discussion. To talk to a practionicer of the stuff about its effects makes as much as sense as talking to a Scientology member about Scientology. There's no legitimate alternative medicine community.
Yes, chemotherapy can ruin your quality of life, the advantage is of course that you continue to live. Let's step away from chemo and think for a moment about something like back pain, does that change your opinion? Or do you really think there is nothing in the realm of "alternative medicine" that may work better than the typical xray and opiates most people get in the US? If it works better, great, test it, prove it, turn it into medicine. To both your and Moh's point, sometimes that's easier said than done. Like the medical industry and medical science aren't always aligned. That's why I used the cannabis example in the first place. Point being that sometimes medicine isn't considered "medicine" not because it's not "medicine", but because people don't want it to be seen as medicine. Cannabis is just one we can follow pretty well along it's path to becoming medicine (even if Hillary doesn't believe it yet). And that's a fine point, but that's not the original point you were making- that cannabis is either homeopathic or that it's considered "alternative medicine". When do you think cannabis went from being "alternative medicine" to being "medicine"? When it was legalized for medical use in several US states, I would guess. Yet the federal government insists it's not medicine? Show nested quote +Schedule I drugs, substances, or chemicals are defined as drugs with no currently accepted medical use www.dea.govWhen you answer how we have something you all insist is medicine, and has been for more than a decade, defined by our government as "not medicine" I think you find your answer to why the idea that "if it works, it's medicine" is sorely lacking.
THC has been considered medicine by the medical community a looong time. The fact that synthetic THC has been approved and used since the 70s while the DEA considers cannabis to not have any medical use tells you all you need to know about whether this is politics or science.
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From what I understand it's also pretty much 100% the DEA keeping marijuana illegal, not FDA. So lobbying to try to get marijuana accepted by the FDA or by "Pharma" is pointless, they have very very very little power over what is scheduled as what (witness the process by which hydrocodone-containing products became schedule II, it had to be initiated by DEA).
The biggest worry for cannabis producers should really be it being fully regulated and legalized, they will get run out of business almost instantly (assuming they're even producing it in a safe manner). Pharma companies would love to start selling people THC or cannabinoids especially if it lets them dodge the increasing hate opioids are getting.
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On August 06 2016 08:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2016 08:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 06 2016 08:19 Nevuk wrote:On August 06 2016 08:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 06 2016 08:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 06 2016 08:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 06 2016 08:01 KwarK wrote:On August 06 2016 08:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 06 2016 07:55 Nyxisto wrote:
No, alternative medicine is not an option instead of chemotherapy or any diseases that (western) medicine can't handle. That is absolutely ridiculous. There's also no 'balance' to be had in this discussion. To talk to a practionicer of the stuff about its effects makes as much as sense as talking to a Scientology member about Scientology. There's no legitimate alternative medicine community.
Yes, chemotherapy can ruin your quality of life, the advantage is of course that you continue to live. Let's step away from chemo and think for a moment about something like back pain, does that change your opinion? Or do you really think there is nothing in the realm of "alternative medicine" that may work better than the typical xray and opiates most people get in the US? If it works better, great, test it, prove it, turn it into medicine. To both your and Moh's point, sometimes that's easier said than done. Like the medical industry and medical science aren't always aligned. That's why I used the cannabis example in the first place. Point being that sometimes medicine isn't considered "medicine" not because it's not "medicine", but because people don't want it to be seen as medicine. Cannabis is just one we can follow pretty well along it's path to becoming medicine (even if Hillary doesn't believe it yet). And that's a fine point, but that's not the original point you were making- that cannabis is either homeopathic or that it's considered "alternative medicine". When do you think cannabis went from being "alternative medicine" to being "medicine"? When it was legalized for medical use in several US states, I would guess. Yet the federal government insists it's not medicine? Schedule I drugs, substances, or chemicals are defined as drugs with no currently accepted medical use www.dea.govWhen you answer how we have something you all insist is medicine, and has been for more than a decade, defined by our government as "not medicine" I think you find your answer to why the idea that "if it works, it's medicine" is sorely lacking. I feel like you're conflating what the medical community has appropriately researched and either accepted or rejected as medicine, with what the government wants to legalize or ban. For example, the medical community has properly researched homeopathy and has rejected it as pseudoscience. That being said, homeopathic "medicine" can still legally be purchased because the government allows it, but it's actually "alternative medicine" because it's complete bullshit. Similarly, it appears as if many medical reports and scientific studies validate and condone the use of medicinal marijuana for certain things; however, the government and politicians may not want to legalize medicinal marijuana due to taboo and misconceptions that they have about the drug. That doesn't mean that medicinal marijuana is grouped with pseudoscience.
I feel like people have a very limited view of who's a part of the "medical community" and also have a short memory about how cannabis has become medicine (or has it?).
Here's an article from just a few months ago
Bertha Madras is a professor of psychobiology at McLean Hospital and Harvard Medical School, with a research focus on how drugs affect the brain. She is former deputy director for demand reduction in the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy.
5 reasons marijuana is not medicine
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Trump lying his way through another press conference. Will we see a Ryan endorsement? Meh, probably. Does anyone really care?
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So, what issues do people want solved/addressed?
Just idly asking, for my long term political plans. (which will probably mostly consist of armchair theorycrafting realistically speaking)
might as well make sure I have stances/plans for everything, at least at a rough sketch level.
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Watching GH fight for Green Party values the same way he fights for BernieBro values is rather beautiful kind of amazing.
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hahah he looked like he was reading a ransom note. He got suicide squaded into that shit so fast..
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I haven't watched a lot of Trump speeches but the way he was so clearly reading off a text seemed very unusual for him.
He was clearly told to stick to the script 'or else' because this didn't feel like Trump in any form.
Wonder what they used to pressure him into it. Just his falling ratings doesn't seem likely.
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How can anyone take Trump's endorsement seriously at this stage?
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On August 06 2016 09:58 Gorsameth wrote:
I haven't watched a lot of Trump speeches but the way he was so clearly reading off a text seemed very unusual for him.
He was clearly told to stick to the script 'or else' because this didn't feel like Trump in any form.
Wonder what they used to pressure him into it. Just his falling ratings doesn't seem likely.
Because every time he says something sincerely or off-the-cuff, it's a huge, idiotic gaff and then everyone else needs to clean up his mess. Even in this speech that he was clearly told to read word-for-word and not make any other remarks, you'll notice that the one thing he said that wasn't written down was that he loved New Hampshire because he won New Hampshire lmao.
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The double thumbs up after he says he endorses Ryan is solid gold. He's a hostage looking for approval from his kidnappers. "I did good right? Just like you said right? You're going to let me go right?"
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EPT
