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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 27 2016 13:18 GMT
#90261
On July 27 2016 22:15 zeo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2016 22:02 Plansix wrote:
On July 27 2016 21:57 plated.rawr wrote:
On July 27 2016 21:38 m4ini wrote:
Putin has already shown his eagerness in expanding his borders with the Crimea push. Without the world community through NATO including the US as a disencouraging factor, further Russian expansion is highly likely.


If you disregard pretty much every opinion of experts on that topic, then yes. Further russian expansion is "highly likely". Sidenote: it actually doesn't even work the way you describe it. The US has military bases in plenty of european countries. If you think that they just "leave" there, .. Hehe. Right.

Of course the US presence in foreign nations will not evaporate the day Trump gets into office. However, his stance against NATO, his stance pro-Putin, his protectionistic anti-globalism rethoric, as well as him wanting to demand tax from countries with american bases, does imply he's looking to lessen the global US military presence.

Anyhow, as to Clinton vs Trump in regards to Russia - Putin has everything to gain from a Trump presidency, and nothing to lose. While I'll hold my judgement on the DNC leaks being caused by a foreign power until there's been a proper checkout of the situation, this, too, would be purely in Putin's favour.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-russia-fbi-idUSKCN1051TD

The official word: "indicated beyond a reasonable doubt that it originated in Russia." They also say it has all the signs of a classic intelligence operation. Unless some other evidence comes out, I think it is safe to assume Russia hacked the DNC.

Reading that article how is it possible that the FBI doesnt know if or who compromised Clintons email server?

They are not magic and can’t instantly figure it out? This stuff takes time. They know it came from Russia and bares signs of previous efforts by what they believe to be the Russian government.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
July 27 2016 13:18 GMT
#90262
On July 27 2016 22:15 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2016 22:10 m4ini wrote:
And before people say I’m an apologist. Please remember that her vote sent my brother to Iraq for 2 of the worst years my family has ever gone through. And we did that twice, though the second time was Afghanistan.


Oh i remember afghanistan. Where were your brothers stationed, maybe we've met them?

So are you disputing the fact that Bush(and/or his leading clique) lied to start a war with iraq, or is your question about whether Hillary's "yes" vote was influenced by those lies?


As i said over and over again, it was obvious that it was a lie, from start to beginning. What i'm disputing is that she didn't know or didn't expect.

He commanded convoys from Kandahar Air Field into a bunch of places, but he was based out of that area. It was better than his Iraq assignment, which was a prison and local transport. He got shot at a lot more there.


Nah, was around 500km (300ish miles in potato) from there. Guess not then.
On track to MA1950A.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 27 2016 13:20 GMT
#90263
On July 27 2016 22:18 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2016 22:15 Plansix wrote:
On July 27 2016 22:10 m4ini wrote:
And before people say I’m an apologist. Please remember that her vote sent my brother to Iraq for 2 of the worst years my family has ever gone through. And we did that twice, though the second time was Afghanistan.


Oh i remember afghanistan. Where were your brothers stationed, maybe we've met them?

So are you disputing the fact that Bush(and/or his leading clique) lied to start a war with iraq, or is your question about whether Hillary's "yes" vote was influenced by those lies?


As i said over and over again, it was obvious that it was a lie, from start to beginning. What i'm disputing is that she didn't know or didn't expect.

He commanded convoys from Kandahar Air Field into a bunch of places, but he was based out of that area. It was better than his Iraq assignment, which was a prison and local transport. He got shot at a lot more there.


Nah, was around 500km (300ish miles in potato) from there. Guess not then.

I don’t know how far he went. He isnt’ super talkative about that tour, beyond throwing pop tarts to kids and buying weird shit from hilarious afghan dudes.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-27 13:25:28
July 27 2016 13:23 GMT
#90264
On July 27 2016 22:20 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2016 22:18 m4ini wrote:
On July 27 2016 22:15 Plansix wrote:
On July 27 2016 22:10 m4ini wrote:
And before people say I’m an apologist. Please remember that her vote sent my brother to Iraq for 2 of the worst years my family has ever gone through. And we did that twice, though the second time was Afghanistan.


Oh i remember afghanistan. Where were your brothers stationed, maybe we've met them?

So are you disputing the fact that Bush(and/or his leading clique) lied to start a war with iraq, or is your question about whether Hillary's "yes" vote was influenced by those lies?


As i said over and over again, it was obvious that it was a lie, from start to beginning. What i'm disputing is that she didn't know or didn't expect.

He commanded convoys from Kandahar Air Field into a bunch of places, but he was based out of that area. It was better than his Iraq assignment, which was a prison and local transport. He got shot at a lot more there.


Nah, was around 500km (300ish miles in potato) from there. Guess not then.

I don’t know how far he went. He isnt’ super talkative about that tour, beyond throwing pop tarts to kids and buying weird shit from hilarious afghan dudes.


Kabul, camp warehouse. Ask him, i personally don't recall convoys from kandahar, but i wasn't part of organisation.
On track to MA1950A.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-27 13:53:00
July 27 2016 13:34 GMT
#90265
On July 27 2016 22:03 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2016 21:55 Plansix wrote:
9/11? That it was horrible. The Iraq war? She was lied to by Bush, like a large number of democrats and Republicans.


Right.. Could you tell me what she said as "excuse" to why she voted in favor? Makes the context of "bush lied" more interesting.


In short, she voted for authorization of the use of force, which means she was okay with putting the option on the table based on the facts that had been presented. She also made a speech about it essentially saying "I trust Bush to do the right thing, but I hope it does not come to war".

On Oct. 10, 2002, during the Senate debate on a resolution to authorize the use of force in Iraq, Clinton rose to express her highly qualified support. First, though, she criticized the idea of attacking Saddam then and there, either alone or “with any allies we can muster.” Such a course, she said, “is fraught with danger,” in part because “it would set a precedent that could come back to haunt us,” legitimizing invasions that Russia might launch against Georgia, India against Pakistan, or China against Taiwan.

“So,” she continued, “the question is, how do we do our best to both diffuse the threat Saddam Hussein poses to his people, the region, including Israel, and the United States—and, at the same time, work to maximize our international support and strengthen the United Nations.”

She went on to say that there was “no perfect approach to this thorny dilemma” and that “people of good faith and high intelligence can reach diametrically opposing conclusions.” But, she concluded, “I believe the best course is to go to the United Nations for a strong resolution” that calls “for complete, unlimited inspections with cooperation expected and demanded” from Saddam.

“If we get the resolution the president seeks, and Saddam complies,” Clinton added, “disarmament can proceed and the threat can be eliminated. … If we get the resolution and Saddam does not comply, we can attack him with far more support and legitimacy than we would have otherwise.” This international support is “crucial,” she added, because, “after shots are fired and bombs are dropped, not all consequences are predictable.”

Then came, from today’s vantage, the key passage: “Even though the resolution before the Senate is not as strong as I would like in requiring the diplomatic route first … I take the president at his word that he will try hard to pass a United Nations resolution and seek to avoid war, if possible. Because bipartisan support for this resolution makes success in the United Nations more likely and war less likely—and because a good faith effort by the United States, even if it fails, will bring more allies and legitimacy to our cause—I have concluded, after careful and serious consideration, that a vote for the resolution best serves the security of our nation. If we were to defeat this resolution or pass it with only a few Democrats, I am concerned that those who want to pretend this problem will go away with delay will oppose any United Nations resolution calling for unrestricted inspections.”

She added, “This is a difficult vote. This is probably the hardest decision I have ever had to make. Any vote that may lead to war should be hard, but I cast it with conviction. … My vote is not, however, a vote for any new doctrine of preemption or for unilateralism or for the arrogance of American power or purpose.” A vote for the resolution, she argued, “is not a vote to rush to war; it is a vote that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our president. And we say to him: Use these powers wisely and as a last resort.”


I pulled this from Slate b/c Google popped it up, but you can find the full transcript here.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 27 2016 13:36 GMT
#90266
On July 27 2016 22:23 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2016 22:20 Plansix wrote:
On July 27 2016 22:18 m4ini wrote:
On July 27 2016 22:15 Plansix wrote:
On July 27 2016 22:10 m4ini wrote:
And before people say I’m an apologist. Please remember that her vote sent my brother to Iraq for 2 of the worst years my family has ever gone through. And we did that twice, though the second time was Afghanistan.


Oh i remember afghanistan. Where were your brothers stationed, maybe we've met them?

So are you disputing the fact that Bush(and/or his leading clique) lied to start a war with iraq, or is your question about whether Hillary's "yes" vote was influenced by those lies?


As i said over and over again, it was obvious that it was a lie, from start to beginning. What i'm disputing is that she didn't know or didn't expect.

He commanded convoys from Kandahar Air Field into a bunch of places, but he was based out of that area. It was better than his Iraq assignment, which was a prison and local transport. He got shot at a lot more there.


Nah, was around 500km (300ish miles in potato) from there. Guess not then.

I don’t know how far he went. He isnt’ super talkative about that tour, beyond throwing pop tarts to kids and buying weird shit from hilarious afghan dudes.


Kabul, camp warehouse. Ask him, i personally don't recall convoys from kandahar, but i wasn't part of organisation.

I will, he did a lot of stuff over there and I wasn’t fully in the loop every time.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Dan HH
Profile Joined July 2012
Romania9256 Posts
July 27 2016 13:43 GMT
#90267
Don't know if it was mentioned already but Trump is gonna answer questions on /r/the_donald later today. Should be fun for all regardless of views, stock up on popcorn.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-27 13:59:38
July 27 2016 13:58 GMT
#90268
Trump will not be releasing his tax returns until after the election. Or ever. Not a great sign, especially since he self funded the run.

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/289400-aide-trump-will-not-be-releasing-taxes
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-27 14:07:03
July 27 2016 14:05 GMT
#90269
On July 27 2016 22:58 Plansix wrote:
Trump will not be releasing his tax returns until after the election. Or ever. Not a great sign, especially since he self funded the run.

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/289400-aide-trump-will-not-be-releasing-taxes

Because as soon as his wealth is shown to be phony, he loses all the bravado that won him the primary.

Edit: I do think the media and DNC will Do a good job at really laying into the issue. Once all the dust settles, I think taxes will be a pointed line of attack.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-27 14:12:59
July 27 2016 14:10 GMT
#90270
Long term it could hurt him a lot. The combo of speculation about DNC hack, his son freely admitting that they received heavy Russian investment and the refusal to tell anyone how much money he really has will be point of attack forever. The speculation and theorizing will be almost as bad as whatever truth is in there.

It also blunts his ability to attack the Clinton Foundation or her speeches. Say what you will about the Clinton Foundation, we know way more about it and who gives it money than we know about Trump. And they will provide information on request, unlike Trump. The speeches are another matter, but they are just speeches.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ragz_gt
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
9172 Posts
July 27 2016 14:11 GMT
#90271
On July 27 2016 21:24 silynxer wrote:
Can you guys stop trying to be impressive with your cynicism? Hillary's main faults pretty much come from being involved in the political game too long. This is a big minus on a personal level, don't get me wrong, but there is so much more at stake.
We can endlessly debate which opinions Trump really has or not but it won't really matter if he gets to select the next two supreme court justices, where he has indicated to follow the standard conservative choices, just as an example. Moreover, the way he manages his campaign in particular the way he fills his positions should make you very vary of a Trump presidency just under the aspect of basic competency (and no Hillary is not as incompetent, she has already proven to be able to do politics in Washington even if her campaign is not stellar).
Someone compared Trump with rolling a dice but it will be more like rolling a dice thousands of times with the dice being slanted towards bad results (because of basic incompetency), while from time to time an unexpectedly good result can happen. Hillary is constant mediocre results with some bad and some good mixed in.

I know that I won't change any minds but the constant refrain of "Hillary being as bad as Trump" is just bonkers if you see yourself as even slightly progressive (if you don't then whatever) and the general very lazy tendency to just say "everything is bad anyway" without qualitative and quantitative nuance is a pet peeve of mine.


This, I was doing that for a while but as my friend said, there is a big difference between a tofu sandwich and a turd sandwich.
I'm not an otaku, I'm a specialist.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22703 Posts
July 27 2016 14:17 GMT
#90272
On July 27 2016 23:10 Plansix wrote:
Long term it could hurt him a lot. The combo of speculation about DNC hack, his son freely admitting that they received heavy Russian investment and the refusal to tell anyone how much money he really has will be point of attack forever. The speculation and theorizing will be almost as bad as whatever truth is in there.

It also blunts his ability to attack the Clinton Foundation or her speeches. Say what you will about the Clinton Foundation, we know way more about it and who gives it money than we know about Trump. And they will provide information on request, unlike Trump. The speeches are another matter, but they are just speeches.

The speculation will be ignored by his supporters and the truth is probably worse then the speculation anyway. The guy isn't worth nearly what he says and he likely hasn't payed taxes in years.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States46691 Posts
July 27 2016 14:19 GMT
#90273
On July 27 2016 23:17 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2016 23:10 Plansix wrote:
Long term it could hurt him a lot. The combo of speculation about DNC hack, his son freely admitting that they received heavy Russian investment and the refusal to tell anyone how much money he really has will be point of attack forever. The speculation and theorizing will be almost as bad as whatever truth is in there.

It also blunts his ability to attack the Clinton Foundation or her speeches. Say what you will about the Clinton Foundation, we know way more about it and who gives it money than we know about Trump. And they will provide information on request, unlike Trump. The speeches are another matter, but they are just speeches.

The speculation will be ignored by his supporters and the truth is probably worse then the speculation anyway. The guy isn't worth nearly what he says and he likely hasn't payed taxes in years.


Is there a way to legally "force" him to release his tax returns publicly?
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
July 27 2016 14:20 GMT
#90274
Trump is now for a $10 minimum wage

So it begins
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Trainrunnef
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States601 Posts
July 27 2016 14:22 GMT
#90275
On July 27 2016 22:58 Plansix wrote:
Trump will not be releasing his tax returns until after the election. Or ever. Not a great sign, especially since he self funded the run.

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/289400-aide-trump-will-not-be-releasing-taxes



If Dems can hammer this idea home in the right way, this might actually be one of the few things that can do damage to his support if one of the following happens:

Either
A) he lied about his actual net worth and is worth far far less than he presented. I think this only works if he is worth <10 mil. Otherwise I think he would get a pass with his base even though he lied about being a billionaire.

B) he is stubborn about it and the opposition gets to call him a sneak and a liar for an extended amount of time. Not sure if there is enough time for this option to really work its magic though.
I am, therefore I pee
ragz_gt
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
9172 Posts
July 27 2016 14:22 GMT
#90276
On July 27 2016 23:19 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2016 23:17 Gorsameth wrote:
On July 27 2016 23:10 Plansix wrote:
Long term it could hurt him a lot. The combo of speculation about DNC hack, his son freely admitting that they received heavy Russian investment and the refusal to tell anyone how much money he really has will be point of attack forever. The speculation and theorizing will be almost as bad as whatever truth is in there.

It also blunts his ability to attack the Clinton Foundation or her speeches. Say what you will about the Clinton Foundation, we know way more about it and who gives it money than we know about Trump. And they will provide information on request, unlike Trump. The speeches are another matter, but they are just speeches.

The speculation will be ignored by his supporters and the truth is probably worse then the speculation anyway. The guy isn't worth nearly what he says and he likely hasn't payed taxes in years.


Is there a way to legally "force" him to release his tax returns publicly?


Prob not unless he gets caught in some tax fraud, or declare bankruptcy again.
I'm not an otaku, I'm a specialist.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-27 14:26:35
July 27 2016 14:24 GMT
#90277
On July 27 2016 23:17 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2016 23:10 Plansix wrote:
Long term it could hurt him a lot. The combo of speculation about DNC hack, his son freely admitting that they received heavy Russian investment and the refusal to tell anyone how much money he really has will be point of attack forever. The speculation and theorizing will be almost as bad as whatever truth is in there.

It also blunts his ability to attack the Clinton Foundation or her speeches. Say what you will about the Clinton Foundation, we know way more about it and who gives it money than we know about Trump. And they will provide information on request, unlike Trump. The speeches are another matter, but they are just speeches.

The speculation will be ignored by his supporters and the truth is probably worse then the speculation anyway. The guy isn't worth nearly what he says and he likely hasn't payed taxes in years.

His supporters don’t matter at this point in the race. They will vote and that will be that. People who have already made up their mind are not the targets going forward. Its independents and the many people who are not paying attention right now.

On July 27 2016 23:19 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2016 23:17 Gorsameth wrote:
On July 27 2016 23:10 Plansix wrote:
Long term it could hurt him a lot. The combo of speculation about DNC hack, his son freely admitting that they received heavy Russian investment and the refusal to tell anyone how much money he really has will be point of attack forever. The speculation and theorizing will be almost as bad as whatever truth is in there.

It also blunts his ability to attack the Clinton Foundation or her speeches. Say what you will about the Clinton Foundation, we know way more about it and who gives it money than we know about Trump. And they will provide information on request, unlike Trump. The speeches are another matter, but they are just speeches.

The speculation will be ignored by his supporters and the truth is probably worse then the speculation anyway. The guy isn't worth nearly what he says and he likely hasn't payed taxes in years.


Is there a way to legally "force" him to release his tax returns publicly?

Not really. But you can bet there are reporters and others trying to find a way to get their hands on that information.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
July 27 2016 14:27 GMT
#90278
I can't imagine hell get away with not releasing. When was the last time a candidate refused?
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States46691 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-27 14:29:26
July 27 2016 14:29 GMT
#90279
On July 27 2016 23:27 Mohdoo wrote:
I can't imagine hell get away with not releasing. When was the last time a candidate refused?


Nixon I think? Ford?
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 27 2016 14:33 GMT
#90280
On July 27 2016 23:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2016 23:27 Mohdoo wrote:
I can't imagine hell get away with not releasing. When was the last time a candidate refused?


Nixon I think? Ford?

Per my very quick digging, it has been common practice since the 1970s.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
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