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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4825 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-13 18:23:29
July 13 2016 18:21 GMT
#85421
Look at the polls. Hillary plunging. But guess what? Trump isn't enjoying an increase of support. So unless Trump shows some actual discipline and messaging, she'll recover her lead. The worst news cycle for Hillary perhaps ever, and he's squeaking out a few statistical ties. We all warn about the usefulness of polls, but there is a pattern here that should be acknowledged.

Comey raked Clinton over the coals, it would be a crime to not pound away at this from now on.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 13 2016 18:26 GMT
#85422
On July 14 2016 03:20 farvacola wrote:
Polling at this time in the electoral cycle is incredibly unreliable, I'd just stick with intuition for now

But they make you feel so good if they confirm your beliefs. That is why so many groups produce so many polls. It’s the Netflix of political forecasting, an outcome for everyone.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
July 13 2016 18:57 GMT
#85423
So money is on either Pence or Christie. Long shot is Newt.

Donald Trump’s inner circle scrambled to fly to Indiana on Wednesday because they were increasingly convinced the GOP frontrunner was moving away from picking Indiana Gov. Mike Pence as his running mate after a positive meeting on Monday with New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie, according to a campaign source with direct knowledge of the situation.

In response, Trump's top adviser Paul Manafort, his three adult children and son-in-law Jared Kushner jetted to meet him in Indiana, where the candidate had stayed overnight, in an effort to intervene as he nears finalizing his choice for a vice presidential pick.

Trump remained in Indiana due to a "technical problem" with his plane, after having met with Pence on Sunday and appearing with him at a rally on Tuesday.

Kushner, the millionaire who has emerged as a de facto campaign manager in recent weeks, strongly opposes putting Christie on the ticket. Notably, Christie was the federal prosecutor who put Kushner's father in prison a decade ago.

On Wednesday morning, he and his wife, Ivanka, along with Trump and his sons, Eric and Donald Jr., gathered at Pence's residence along with Manafort for another meeting.

While Trump's advisers remain divided over who he should choose, they seem to recognize their influence is limited.
"Trump is going to pick whoever he's going to pick," said one campaign source, who spoke on the condition of anonymity Wednesday to freely discuss recent campaign deliberations.

Working in Christie's favor, a personal rapport with Trump himself from a relationship that dates back more than a decade.
"They know each other," said once source close to Trump. "Compare that relationship to Pence, who Trump has interacted with five times and who endorsed Trump's rival two days before the Indiana primary that Trump won by 18 points."

If Pence is the pick, it will come as a relief to Manafort, who is pushing hard for him. According to multiple sources, Manafort has long been opposed to selecting Gingrich to the ticket (and to a lesser extent Christie), believing that the loquacious former speaker would be undisciplined and difficult to manage.

Kushner would prefer Gingrich, according to multiple sources involved in campaign deliberations. That's at least in part driven by his relationship with GOP mega-donor and Republican Jewish Coalition founder Sheldon Adelson, who is pushing Gingrich, as well as his own antipathy toward Christie.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21793 Posts
July 13 2016 19:16 GMT
#85424
On July 14 2016 02:42 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 13 2016 19:04 Gorsameth wrote:
On July 13 2016 12:03 GGTeMpLaR wrote:


please be flynn please be flynn please be flynn
please don't be newt please dont be newt please dont be newt


Don't you think that an outsider like Trump would benefit from having a politician be his VP?
Someone who actually plays the Washington political game and can help him realize his plans.

Is Flynn the preferred choice simply because there is no decent politician willing to be VP or do you think he would actually make a great VP?


Short answer - he probably would benefit from a politician as VP, but I think the benefits of having General Flynn outweigh the benefits he would receive from a seasoned politician like Newt Gingrich as VP. Trump will have no shortage of seasoned politicians he can fill his cabinet with.

I would say he's my preferred choice because of both of those factors you mention here, granted I am not fully educated on every single VP candidate that he has been vetted. I fully respect someone that high-ranking in the military as having integrity; it's not an easy position to acquire and military life, even for officers, is not an easy path. In the short interview with him, he did seem a little less versed in speaking on political issues than you would expect from a seasoned politician but that doesn't bother me too much because I agreed with his stances on all the issues he did speak of and I'm sure if he's made the VP he will improve in this matter.

I will be extremely disappointed in Trump if he chooses Newt Gingrich as VP over General Flynn.

Makes sense, thanks.
Always good to hear some reasoning from the other side
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7903 Posts
July 13 2016 19:21 GMT
#85425
On July 14 2016 03:21 Introvert wrote:
Look at the polls. Hillary plunging. But guess what? Trump isn't enjoying an increase of support. So unless Trump shows some actual discipline and messaging, she'll recover her lead. The worst news cycle for Hillary perhaps ever, and he's squeaking out a few statistical ties. We all warn about the usefulness of polls, but there is a pattern here that should be acknowledged.

Comey raked Clinton over the coals, it would be a crime to not pound away at this from now on.

What poll?

I looked at that poll agregator, and Clinton is beating Trump by a 3 to 10 points margin, except for Rasmussen which has always been a joke.

I scrolled as far as I could and it looks like it has been more or less the same margin for at least a month.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
July 13 2016 19:22 GMT
#85426
Both candidates are so unfavorable right now that I could really see it go either way. The debates and conventions are really going to matter.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7903 Posts
July 13 2016 19:23 GMT
#85427
Interestingly enough, evangelical christians are supporting Trump en masse, even more than they did support Romney.

I guess his private life, his wildly swinging positions of abortion, his bullyish attitude and his nastiness to immigrants and foreigners have little to do with Jesus' message, but that has never been the point.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7903 Posts
July 13 2016 19:25 GMT
#85428
On July 14 2016 04:22 LegalLord wrote:
Both candidates are so unfavorable right now that I could really see it go either way. The debates and conventions are really going to matter.

Conventions, maybe, debates I doubt it.

It will be an articulated message against schoolboy taunts. We will have a platform vs insults such as crooked Hillary and so on.

It will be ugly, Trump will win at being a nasty bully, Clinton will win at being smart and have an actual plan, and it won't matter that much.

That's how I see it. I might be wrong.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4825 Posts
July 13 2016 19:27 GMT
#85429
On July 14 2016 04:21 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 14 2016 03:21 Introvert wrote:
Look at the polls. Hillary plunging. But guess what? Trump isn't enjoying an increase of support. So unless Trump shows some actual discipline and messaging, she'll recover her lead. The worst news cycle for Hillary perhaps ever, and he's squeaking out a few statistical ties. We all warn about the usefulness of polls, but there is a pattern here that should be acknowledged.

Comey raked Clinton over the coals, it would be a crime to not pound away at this from now on.

What poll?

I looked at that poll agregator, and Clinton is beating Trump by a 3 to 10 points margin, except for Rasmussen which has always been a joke.

I scrolled as far as I could and it looks like it has been more or less the same margin for at least a month.


The ones out today, in particular the swing state polls. They are the best numbers he's seen in months.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
July 13 2016 19:30 GMT
#85430
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html

Surprising New Evidence Shows Bias in Police Use of Force but Not in Shootings

A new study confirms that black men and women are treated differently in the hands of law enforcement. They are more likely to be touched, handcuffed, pushed to the ground or pepper-sprayed by a police officer, even after accounting for how, where and when they encounter the police.

But when it comes to the most lethal form of force — police shootings — the study finds no racial bias.

“It is the most surprising result of my career,” said Roland G. Fryer Jr., the author of the study and a professor of economics at Harvard. The study examined more than 1,000 shootings in 10 major police departments, in Texas, Florida and California.

The result contradicts the image of police shootings that many Americans hold after the killings (some captured on video) of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo.; Tamir Rice in Cleveland; Walter Scott in South Carolina; Alton Sterling in Baton Rouge, La.; and Philando Castile in Minnesota.

The study did not say whether the most egregious examples — those at the heart of the nation’s debate on police shootings — are free of racial bias. Instead, it examined a larger pool of shootings, including nonfatal ones.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
July 13 2016 19:31 GMT
#85431
trump hasn't budged, hillary has just gone down a bit which isn't unexpected with the FBI recommendation. i expect her numbers to go back up next week with the bernie endorsement and as the impact of the FBI recommendation fading. ill be unworried until hillary starts consistently losing to trump in polls AND trump manages to move out of the low 40's.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
July 13 2016 19:31 GMT
#85432
On July 14 2016 04:25 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 14 2016 04:22 LegalLord wrote:
Both candidates are so unfavorable right now that I could really see it go either way. The debates and conventions are really going to matter.

Conventions, maybe, debates I doubt it.

It will be an articulated message against schoolboy taunts. We will have a platform vs insults such as crooked Hillary and so on.

It will be ugly, Trump will win at being a nasty bully, Clinton will win at being smart and have an actual plan, and it won't matter that much.

That's how I see it. I might be wrong.

There is basically no guarantee that things are going to happen that way. Trump may manage to do some really effective attacks on Hillary's record that will weaken her support. Maybe Hillary will fail to win over the Bernie Sanders supporters by continuing to focus on the less appreciated parts of her platform. Maybe Trump will pivot towards the more reasonable and win some of his detractors over, especially in the swing states. Or maybe things will line up in Hillary's favor and push her to victory. At this point there's no real assurance of either outcome.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7903 Posts
July 13 2016 19:32 GMT
#85433
On July 14 2016 04:27 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 14 2016 04:21 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On July 14 2016 03:21 Introvert wrote:
Look at the polls. Hillary plunging. But guess what? Trump isn't enjoying an increase of support. So unless Trump shows some actual discipline and messaging, she'll recover her lead. The worst news cycle for Hillary perhaps ever, and he's squeaking out a few statistical ties. We all warn about the usefulness of polls, but there is a pattern here that should be acknowledged.

Comey raked Clinton over the coals, it would be a crime to not pound away at this from now on.

What poll?

I looked at that poll agregator, and Clinton is beating Trump by a 3 to 10 points margin, except for Rasmussen which has always been a joke.

I scrolled as far as I could and it looks like it has been more or less the same margin for at least a month.


The ones out today, in particular the swing state polls. They are the best numbers he's seen in months.

Mc Clatchy gives Clinton a +3 lead, +5 with the the two independent candidates, the Economist gives her a +3 lead.

There were +3 spread polls a month ago. How is that a huge plunge?

And how can you make a conclusion on general tendencies on a one day basis? That doesn't make sense unless something major, like a huge scandal or a big debate comes in between. Which hasn't happened.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18832 Posts
July 13 2016 19:33 GMT
#85434
On July 14 2016 04:30 zulu_nation8 wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html

Show nested quote +
Surprising New Evidence Shows Bias in Police Use of Force but Not in Shootings

A new study confirms that black men and women are treated differently in the hands of law enforcement. They are more likely to be touched, handcuffed, pushed to the ground or pepper-sprayed by a police officer, even after accounting for how, where and when they encounter the police.

But when it comes to the most lethal form of force — police shootings — the study finds no racial bias.

“It is the most surprising result of my career,” said Roland G. Fryer Jr., the author of the study and a professor of economics at Harvard. The study examined more than 1,000 shootings in 10 major police departments, in Texas, Florida and California.

The result contradicts the image of police shootings that many Americans hold after the killings (some captured on video) of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo.; Tamir Rice in Cleveland; Walter Scott in South Carolina; Alton Sterling in Baton Rouge, La.; and Philando Castile in Minnesota.

The study did not say whether the most egregious examples — those at the heart of the nation’s debate on police shootings — are free of racial bias. Instead, it examined a larger pool of shootings, including nonfatal ones.

There are literally over a dozen pages of this thread dedicated to discussing that study.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
GGTeMpLaR
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States7226 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-13 19:37:38
July 13 2016 19:34 GMT
#85435
On July 14 2016 04:25 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 14 2016 04:22 LegalLord wrote:
Both candidates are so unfavorable right now that I could really see it go either way. The debates and conventions are really going to matter.

Conventions, maybe, debates I doubt it.

It will be an articulated message against schoolboy taunts. We will have a platform vs insults such as crooked Hillary and so on.

It will be ugly, Trump will win at being a nasty bully, Clinton will win at being smart and have an actual plan, and it won't matter that much.

That's how I see it. I might be wrong.


I love how oblivious you are to how hypocritical and naive you're being here.

'unqualified, schoolboy taunts, nasty bully, demagogue' the list goes on and on of insults she's used against Trump.

"Clinton is taking the highground here with an intelligent message against a nasty, unintelligent bully with no plan or platform"

You're the definition of that which you're criticizing

Your post reads like actual propaganda
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
July 13 2016 19:34 GMT
#85436
sorry I unsubscribed
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-13 19:35:51
July 13 2016 19:35 GMT
#85437
On July 14 2016 04:30 zulu_nation8 wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html

Show nested quote +
Surprising New Evidence Shows Bias in Police Use of Force but Not in Shootings

A new study confirms that black men and women are treated differently in the hands of law enforcement. They are more likely to be touched, handcuffed, pushed to the ground or pepper-sprayed by a police officer, even after accounting for how, where and when they encounter the police.

But when it comes to the most lethal form of force — police shootings — the study finds no racial bias.

“It is the most surprising result of my career,” said Roland G. Fryer Jr., the author of the study and a professor of economics at Harvard. The study examined more than 1,000 shootings in 10 major police departments, in Texas, Florida and California.

The result contradicts the image of police shootings that many Americans hold after the killings (some captured on video) of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo.; Tamir Rice in Cleveland; Walter Scott in South Carolina; Alton Sterling in Baton Rouge, La.; and Philando Castile in Minnesota.

The study did not say whether the most egregious examples — those at the heart of the nation’s debate on police shootings — are free of racial bias. Instead, it examined a larger pool of shootings, including nonfatal ones.


Finding no significant evidence of racial bias =/= finding significant evidence of no racial bias.

But that's never going to penetrate into reporting and others have already talked about this in depth I believe.
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7903 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-13 19:47:09
July 13 2016 19:37 GMT
#85438
On July 14 2016 04:31 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 14 2016 04:25 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On July 14 2016 04:22 LegalLord wrote:
Both candidates are so unfavorable right now that I could really see it go either way. The debates and conventions are really going to matter.

Conventions, maybe, debates I doubt it.

It will be an articulated message against schoolboy taunts. We will have a platform vs insults such as crooked Hillary and so on.

It will be ugly, Trump will win at being a nasty bully, Clinton will win at being smart and have an actual plan, and it won't matter that much.

That's how I see it. I might be wrong.

There is basically no guarantee that things are going to happen that way. Trump may manage to do some really effective attacks on Hillary's record that will weaken her support. Maybe Hillary will fail to win over the Bernie Sanders supporters by continuing to focus on the less appreciated parts of her platform. Maybe Trump will pivot towards the more reasonable and win some of his detractors over, especially in the swing states. Or maybe things will line up in Hillary's favor and push her to victory. At this point there's no real assurance of either outcome.

Trump has shown consistently that he was not willing to budge whatsoever from his middle school bully's attitude. He should have pivoted massively the day he got nominated, instead he kept on insulting everyone. I don't think he actually knows how to argue differently.

To me the other problem is that he does not really have a platform, and does not have any experience or accomplishment in politics to show for. And that's what is being discussed in debates usually. What card do you bring on the table when you clearly don't know what you are talking about and your whole accomplishment are about failed casino business, Trump steaks and reality shows?

As for attacking Clinton, the Republican party and the whole conservative propaganda machine is basically recycling the two same "scandals" since a year. I think the public won't be very impressed with Trump calling her crooked Hillary and refering to her email server?

Clinton is far, far more solid that she looks. Her apparent vulnerability comes from Republican finding any opportunity to bash her with enormous means, and that doesn't seem to be enough.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7903 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-13 19:44:40
July 13 2016 19:39 GMT
#85439
On July 14 2016 04:34 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 14 2016 04:25 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On July 14 2016 04:22 LegalLord wrote:
Both candidates are so unfavorable right now that I could really see it go either way. The debates and conventions are really going to matter.

Conventions, maybe, debates I doubt it.

It will be an articulated message against schoolboy taunts. We will have a platform vs insults such as crooked Hillary and so on.

It will be ugly, Trump will win at being a nasty bully, Clinton will win at being smart and have an actual plan, and it won't matter that much.

That's how I see it. I might be wrong.


I love how oblivious you are to how hypocritical and naive you're being here.

'unqualified, schoolboy taunts, nasty bully, demagogue' the list goes on and on of insults she's used against Trump.

"Clinton is taking the highground here with an intelligent message against a nasty, unintelligent bully with no plan or platform"

You're the definition of that which you're criticizing

I love you too Templar.

Trump has been refering to Clinton as "crooked Hillary" for months. And "lying Ted" and so on and so on. That's schoolboy taunts in my book. And that's when he is not bragging about the size of his genitals. At that point his argumentation reads like a youtube comment section.

And yes, Clinton is a wonk, and has a platform. Contrarily to your champion who has a populist mess of a program meant to appeal to people who can't see through the fact that it doesn't make one bit of a sense (lol wall and doublepluslol at the mexicans paying for it)..

I don't really want to argue with you, but if you really insist to redo the UK thread, I am here...
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4825 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-13 19:45:46
July 13 2016 19:45 GMT
#85440
On July 14 2016 04:32 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 14 2016 04:27 Introvert wrote:
On July 14 2016 04:21 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On July 14 2016 03:21 Introvert wrote:
Look at the polls. Hillary plunging. But guess what? Trump isn't enjoying an increase of support. So unless Trump shows some actual discipline and messaging, she'll recover her lead. The worst news cycle for Hillary perhaps ever, and he's squeaking out a few statistical ties. We all warn about the usefulness of polls, but there is a pattern here that should be acknowledged.

Comey raked Clinton over the coals, it would be a crime to not pound away at this from now on.

What poll?

I looked at that poll agregator, and Clinton is beating Trump by a 3 to 10 points margin, except for Rasmussen which has always been a joke.

I scrolled as far as I could and it looks like it has been more or less the same margin for at least a month.


The ones out today, in particular the swing state polls. They are the best numbers he's seen in months.

Mc Clatchy gives Clinton a +3 lead, +5 with the the two independent candidates, the Economist gives her a +3 lead.

There were +3 spread polls a month ago. How is that a huge plunge?

And how can you make a conclusion on general tendencies on a one day basis? That doesn't make sense unless something major, like a huge scandal or a big debate comes in between. Which hasn't happened.



I'm on my phone out and about so I can't give specifics, but Hillary usually polls higher than low 40s. Especially in states like Florida.

And no major scandal? Are you joking?
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
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