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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23489 Posts
On July 09 2016 12:29 zulu_nation8 wrote: I don't think that's a progressive attitude. Not saying we're stopping, but it's not any lack of effort on our side preventing progress like comments you made previously insinuate. The education needs to come from within, the people who don't understand need to do the work, we can't do any more of it for them, we've done all of it we could. They have to do it or we basically go nowhere. | ||
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
On July 09 2016 12:20 GreenHorizons wrote: Violence is the antithesis of their message period. Actually, one of its biggest problems is it has no cohesive message or leader to speak for it. https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=baltimore riot police car BLM&FORM=HDRSC2 So shit like this happens. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
As someone fervently defending BLM, and presumably a reasonable person, you should consider how your narrative should change to reflect what has happened, and not place the onus on non-blacks to figure it out for themselves. | ||
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45089 Posts
On July 09 2016 12:49 GGTeMpLaR wrote: https://twitter.com/SheriffClarke/status/751534034963103744 Isn't that like "condemning this vile, vitriolic, hateful religion called Christianity" after a WBC picket or KKK rally? | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23489 Posts
On July 09 2016 12:40 GGTeMpLaR wrote: Actually, one of its biggest problems is it has no cohesive message or leader to speak for it. Well Hillary is anointing Deray and if he really wants it he can "take" that. It would just be symbolic like Sharpton and he's well aware of what that means. But that's not the problem at all. On July 09 2016 12:40 zulu_nation8 wrote: I only insinuated, or rather made clear, that the Dallas shooter has impeded the progress made by BLM, which you seem to disagree. As someone fervently defending BLM, and presumably a reasonable person, you should consider how your narrative should change to reflect what has happened, and not place the onus on non-blacks to figure it out for themselves. As I said, he didn't set anything back, the responsibility for any lost ground is on those that concede it, not that guy. The narrative need not change, the point is the same, and our message the same. You act like the "onus" of figuring out how to come to the conversation between yourselves is actually a significant burden. It's really not that hard. And you're not really on your own anyway, there's plenty of people like me (and far better) that go out of our way to try to help you still, but we've all come to the conclusion it's time for yall to recognize. On aside, I personally think you all screwed up waiting as long as you did, because on a primal level you just waited until someone went overboard to finally say some of the things that should have been said a long time ago (some are still off the deep end ,Rush for example), that's not a good pattern to fall into. Try responding to the protests positively not waiting until someone shoots some cops for the GOP to Finally say to their constituents "You don't understand and you need to listen more". On July 09 2016 12:49 GGTeMpLaR wrote: https://twitter.com/SheriffClarke/status/751534034963103744 That guy has no chill. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23489 Posts
On July 09 2016 13:17 zulu_nation8 wrote: are you including asians in the "you all" category? cuz that's what i am and i didnt think we were on the other side. I don't generally use the term "Asians" when talking with people from Asian countries, as I understand it, it's mostly an old convention (not so distinct from the concepts we're talking about otherwise) used for communicating outside of the geographic area but for communication purposes I'll just run with it here. I mean I don't remember your heritage/nationality if you've mentioned it but if you're Chinese, you got enough problems over there, I'd probably prefer they worry about their own folks suffering. For Asian immigrants and first few generations, I just prefer they assimilate toward the folks who recognize systemic racism is a real problem that needs immediate attention (not in a tit for tat kind of way either). Don't really expect them to go out of their way to figure it out or be active, just not speak on it, if they aren't going to get informed first. If you're family's been here for 100+ years, no excuses, pull your head out and then help a couple buddies and tell them to do the same. I guarantee everyone here has several people they know/know of that doesn't think systemic racism is an issue that needs immediate attention, or can't talk about it without mentioning something black people need to do. Pick one and convince them otherwise, that's what I'm talking about when I say "it's their turn" *Those are somewhat arbitrary amounts of time/regional separations and are just my opinion off the top of my head, I wouldn't hold me hard and fast to them. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23489 Posts
On July 09 2016 14:04 zulu_nation8 wrote: My use of "asian" is short for Asian American, which is one of the checkboxes in census surveys. Systemic racism is an important issue, I don't think anyone here disagrees. But discussing current events require adapting perspectives, of which you have shown none of. You are pretending the Dallas killer has had no influence, which is incredibly ignorant. You are arguing that BLM has no responsibility to address the Dallas shootings, and if anyone reacts differently, it's on them to align themselves with your point of view. This is not how rest of the country thinks, and by ignoring that, you are disconnecting yourself from meaningful dialogue. People here do disagree. I get what you're saying but you don't seem to understand what I'm saying. I'm not pretending he "had no influence" I'm saying it's only as much as people let it and that's on them. BLM did address the shootings and it's supporters were quick to show empathy. We're not disconnecting from meaningful dialogue, we're waiting for them to show up to it. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23489 Posts
On July 09 2016 14:21 zulu_nation8 wrote: Whoever disagrees that systemic racism exists can be ignored. If only it were that easy. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7921 Posts
On July 09 2016 12:49 GGTeMpLaR wrote: https://twitter.com/SheriffClarke/status/751534034963103744 Horrible, horrible people who want police to be accountable for the people it kills. Shame on them! That's all funny and everything, but let's get real for once: In the US, in 2015, the police has killed 1134 people In France between 2005 and 2015 the police has killed a grand total of 54 people so an average of 5 a year. France is six time smaller than the US, so French police kills in average 30 to 35 times less than the US police. Two things : either the US police does an utterly shit job because we consider that killing a human being should always be a last resort thing. Especially if your job is to protect civilian and maintain civil peace in the first place. Either we consider that it doesn't matter so much, because they were probably bad guys and bad guys can die, and if they were not bad, at least they were black. Considering the machisto attitude and utter lack of respect for human life (unless it's a foetus) of part of the american society, I assume the opposition to BLM, which is a peaceful movement whose exclusive mission is to raise awareness on that issue comes from the latter. Interestingly enough, the same guys who consider that the number one threat to America is fundamentalist islamist terrorists seem to have no issue at all with police violences, a problem that killed 67 times more in 2015 than the grand total of 19 casualties caused by fundamentalists muslims. And considering the crime rate in the US is worse than in France, you can also safely assume that most of those murders didn't help one bit to increase the security of US citizens. That killing was horrible. BLM has condemned it. As I do. That doesn't solve the 1000+ people murdered every year by law enforcement officers. | ||
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Orcasgt24
Canada3238 Posts
So of course the number is gonna be a shit tonne higher. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7921 Posts
On July 09 2016 19:05 Orcasgt24 wrote: Crime in the USA is alot more violent than in France and it can be directly attributed to the easy of firearm access. Police kill criminals in armed standoffs daily and nobody cares when Joe Drug Dealer gets 4 in the chest because he got busted by the popo and decided to fight. It's why we hear about those incidents so rarely. So of course the number is gonna be a shit tonne higher. You are right, but not only. French gangsters also have firearms. It's just that in France an officer would NEVER kill someone unless it's absolutely necessary, because he would be accountable and put in jail if he didn't have a really really really good reason to pull the trigger. A policeman killing a kid playing with a plastic pistol would get 20 years, and rightfully so. In America he is not even prosecuted and has the support of the right wing (white officer = good guy / black kid = not so much, he is black after all). The same thing goes with home defense. In France, you shoot someone who enters your house, and you go to jail unless your life is directly threatened. In AMerica, someone breaks into your house, you shoot him in the back, you are a hero. Even if said guy was a drunken kid completely harmless. It's a problem of cultural relationship to violence. And it's an enormous issue when it comes to police. And of course, as I said, there is something about the respect to human life from the American right which is a bit weird. Life is sacred when you are a bunch of cells in a woman's womb, but from the moment you are out, it looks like it doesn't matter so much if you can be considered a "bad guy". Nobody cares if the police shoots a marijuana dealer. In France it would make the newspapers, and the officer who shot would have to explain in court how and why his life was immediately threatened. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7921 Posts
Let see if he cares at all about his country or only about himself. I don't believe he is as delusional as the Bernie or Bust Berniebros and that he thinks he could win with a green party ticket, so he knows very well that accepting means offering the key to the WH to Trump. That's getting interesting. Especially now that he starts to really have leverage on the democratic platform and seem to really pull the party to the left. I think the decision of his life.. Hope he doesn't fuck that up. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21963 Posts
On July 09 2016 19:13 Biff The Understudy wrote: You are right, but not only. French gangsters also have firearms. It's just that in France an officer would NEVER kill someone unless it's absolutely necessary, because he would be accountable and put in jail if he didn't have a really really really good reason to pull the trigger. A policeman killing a kid playing with a plastic pistol would get 20 years, and rightfully so. In America he is not even prosecuted and has the support of the right wing (white officer = good guy / black kid = not so much, he is black after all). The same thing goes with home defense. In France, you shoot someone who enters your house, and you go to jail unless your life is directly threatened. In AMerica, someone breaks into your house, you shoot him in the back, you are a hero. Even if said guy was a drunken kid completely harmless. It's a problem of cultural relationship to violence. And it's an enormous issue when it comes to police. And of course, as I said, there is something about the respect to human life from the American right which is a bit weird. Life is sacred when you are a bunch of cells in a woman's womb, but from the moment you are out, it looks like it doesn't matter so much if you can be considered a "bad guy". Nobody cares if the police shoots a marijuana dealer. In France it would make the newspapers, and the officer who shot would have to explain in court how and why his life was immediately threatened. Just before the Dallas tragedy we were having an (imo) fruitful discussion about how bad police training can attribute to a large portion of the problems with the US police use of violence. It might be worth going back to read some of that if you missed it. | ||
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NukeD
Croatia1612 Posts
NY mayor speaks on the shooting and in my opinion presents a lot of valid and reasonable points. | ||
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pmh
1366 Posts
On July 09 2016 19:25 Biff The Understudy wrote: By the way, the green party invited Bernie to pull a Ralph Nader. Let see if he cares at all about his country or only about himself. I don't believe he is as delusional as the Bernie or Bust Berniebros and that he thinks he could win with a green party ticket, so he knows very well that accepting means offering the key to the WH to Trump. That's getting interesting. Especially now that he starts to really have leverage on the democratic platform and seem to really pull the party to the left. I think the decision of his life.. Hope he doesn't fuck that up. Bernie got no guts I am afraid. Maybe he was there just to catch the vote of the progressive people for the democrats. The pull to the left,its all fake. As soon as Clinton is in office she will start giving back all the favors she owns and everything progressive will be thrown out the window,mark my words. Bernie should run for the green party,it does not automatically give the key to trump. It just takes away the key from Hillary. My guess would be a 33/33/33 first round and after that basicly anything can happen. Bernie could even win it. | ||
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