|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On July 09 2016 09:17 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2016 09:11 m4ini wrote:On July 09 2016 09:11 NukeD wrote:On July 09 2016 09:06 zlefin wrote:On July 09 2016 09:02 NukeD wrote:On July 09 2016 08:59 zlefin wrote:On July 09 2016 08:49 NukeD wrote:On July 09 2016 08:45 zlefin wrote:On July 09 2016 08:42 NukeD wrote:On July 09 2016 08:40 zlefin wrote:
[quote]
we're talking about this week's US thing, right? on the scale of tragedies that barely registers (except for West-centrism).
though I might be unclear on exactly which issue you referring to, so feel free to clarify. The Dallas shooting? Am I missing something here? that compared to a lot of other things happening in the world, 5 dead isn't that big of a tragedy. That was the comparison I was noting. it doesn't even change much in the US homicide rate either. Just wow.. Im honestly speechless. not sure how much longer I'll be on for; but if you think of something to say later, or want clarification, you can always pm, or just ask in thread and someone else may be able to answer it. Im just baffled how you do not view this as a tragedy. Honestly I was shocked that this occured, it was all over our news too. My debate is abotu scale; 5 dead is not that big a tragedy. what about the other 40 people murdered in the US today? Let alone the far far worse things that have happened elsewhere. Yes in cases of other 40 dead I would also deem that person's post as unaceptable and disrespective of the victims. Yet we see nobody bring those tragedies up.. See the problem? Or rather, his argument? I am talking about that black ladies twitter post specifically. I didnt go into anything else. Anyway i dont see his argument. Because this is not such a big tragedy I shouldnt think that that lady went too far?
I'm not sure about you guys, but have you learned how to read dates? This post was made on the 6th. Before her brother went rampage.
Don't know. You tell me.
I actually didn't follow the whole thing, since chasing every retarded posting ever made on Facebook (or here for that matter) would basically consume me. She's an idiot. So what. I've seen similarly idiotic posts on TL.
|
On July 09 2016 09:19 NukeD wrote:Thats apologetic for the shooters in my opinion and i dont think its the right direction for her to take.
It's not apologetic for the shooter. It's pandering for votes.
That aside, she's rather spot on with that.
edit: was trying to find something, did trump comment on the Dallas shooting/the two black dudes?
|
On July 09 2016 09:21 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2016 09:19 NukeD wrote:Thats apologetic for the shooters in my opinion and i dont think its the right direction for her to take. It's not apologetic for the shooter. It's pandering for votes. That aside, she's rather spot on with that.
This.
Saw a post that I think sums things up well. "Fuck a wall. America needs to build a giant mirror to take a look at itself."
|
On July 09 2016 09:21 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2016 09:19 NukeD wrote:Thats apologetic for the shooters in my opinion and i dont think its the right direction for her to take. edit: was trying to find something, did trump comment on the Dallas shooting/the two black dudes?
Last night’s horrific execution-style shootings of 12 Dallas law enforcement officers – five of whom were killed and seven wounded - is an attack on our country. It is a coordinated, premeditated assault on the men and women who keep us safe.
We must restore law and order. We must restore the confidence of our people to be safe and secure in their homes and on the street.
The senseless, tragic deaths of two people in Louisiana and Minnesota reminds us how much more needs to be done.
This morning I offer my thoughts and prayers for all of the victims’ families, and we pray for our brave police officers and first responders who risk their lives to protect us every single day.
Our nation has become too divided. Too many Americans feel like they’ve lost hope. Crime is harming too many citizens. Racial tensions have gotten worse, not better. This isn’t the American Dream we all want for our children.
This is a time, perhaps more than ever, for strong leadership, love and compassion. We will pull through these tragedies.
https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-statement
|
On July 09 2016 09:21 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2016 09:19 NukeD wrote:Thats apologetic for the shooters in my opinion and i dont think its the right direction for her to take. It's not apologetic for the shooter. It's pandering for votes. That aside, she's rather spot on with that. edit: was trying to find something, did trump comment on the Dallas shooting/the two black dudes?
I think he did a blanket, neutral statement, it was posted here earlier.
|
On July 09 2016 09:24 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2016 09:21 m4ini wrote:On July 09 2016 09:19 NukeD wrote:Thats apologetic for the shooters in my opinion and i dont think its the right direction for her to take. edit: was trying to find something, did trump comment on the Dallas shooting/the two black dudes? Show nested quote +Last night’s horrific execution-style shootings of 12 Dallas law enforcement officers – five of whom were killed and seven wounded - is an attack on our country. It is a coordinated, premeditated assault on the men and women who keep us safe.
We must restore law and order. We must restore the confidence of our people to be safe and secure in their homes and on the street.
The senseless, tragic deaths of two people in Louisiana and Minnesota reminds us how much more needs to be done.
This morning I offer my thoughts and prayers for all of the victims’ families, and we pray for our brave police officers and first responders who risk their lives to protect us every single day.
Our nation has become too divided. Too many Americans feel like they’ve lost hope. Crime is harming too many citizens. Racial tensions have gotten worse, not better. This isn’t the American Dream we all want for our children.
This is a time, perhaps more than ever, for strong leadership, love and compassion. We will pull through these tragedies. https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-statement
Well he mentioned the two black dudes as a sidenote, more than i actually expected. All in all, if you take away all the politicians blahblah, it's almost decent. Surprising.
Thanks for the link.
|
On July 09 2016 09:17 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2016 09:11 m4ini wrote:On July 09 2016 09:11 NukeD wrote:On July 09 2016 09:06 zlefin wrote:On July 09 2016 09:02 NukeD wrote:On July 09 2016 08:59 zlefin wrote:On July 09 2016 08:49 NukeD wrote:On July 09 2016 08:45 zlefin wrote:On July 09 2016 08:42 NukeD wrote:On July 09 2016 08:40 zlefin wrote:
[quote]
we're talking about this week's US thing, right? on the scale of tragedies that barely registers (except for West-centrism).
though I might be unclear on exactly which issue you referring to, so feel free to clarify. The Dallas shooting? Am I missing something here? that compared to a lot of other things happening in the world, 5 dead isn't that big of a tragedy. That was the comparison I was noting. it doesn't even change much in the US homicide rate either. Just wow.. Im honestly speechless. not sure how much longer I'll be on for; but if you think of something to say later, or want clarification, you can always pm, or just ask in thread and someone else may be able to answer it. Im just baffled how you do not view this as a tragedy. Honestly I was shocked that this occured, it was all over our news too. My debate is abotu scale; 5 dead is not that big a tragedy. what about the other 40 people murdered in the US today? Let alone the far far worse things that have happened elsewhere. Yes in cases of other 40 dead I would also deem that person's post as unaceptable and disrespective of the victims. Yet we see nobody bring those tragedies up.. See the problem? Or rather, his argument? I am talking about that black ladies twitter post specifically. I didnt go into anything else. Anyway i dont see his argument. Because this is not such a big tragedy I shouldnt think that that lady went too far?
my argument was only that it's not such a big tragedy, no more than that. more of a medium tragedy really. A rather narrow point to be sure. but you could always have asked my to clarify my argument/point directly.
|
On July 09 2016 09:21 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2016 09:19 NukeD wrote:Thats apologetic for the shooters in my opinion and i dont think its the right direction for her to take. It's not apologetic for the shooter. It's pandering for votes. That aside, she's rather spot on with that.
I mean when it happened to her, she shut it down and had them kicked out but it does seem to feed Trump's narrative of our empathy for black people being misplaced. That Hillary is just trying to stir race issues, and he's right, she is. She doesn't actually believe what she's saying or she would have heard Ashley Williams out and made other white people there do it to. At minimum she would have apologized and invited her to conversation about that pain. So Trump panders with his print statement (other statements less so) accidentally labels Alton as a motorist in haste* (I get it, the shootings didn't matter until after the cops)
I'm just over here like "can we do something tho?"
Also ATL PD is standing off with protesters. I hope police stay calm.
EDIT: * looks like he updated it but I posted the original a lil while back.
|
These tragedies are the perfect way hrc is going to get a break from all the noise over her emails recently. As I suspected she will pander to the max to divert from her recently tarnished reputation while simultaneously trying to increase her popularity with minorities. She will feed more into the white vs black narrative, which is absolutely sickening as all it does is increase distrust between Americans.
|
United States42701 Posts
On July 09 2016 09:26 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2016 09:17 NukeD wrote:On July 09 2016 09:11 m4ini wrote:On July 09 2016 09:11 NukeD wrote:On July 09 2016 09:06 zlefin wrote:On July 09 2016 09:02 NukeD wrote:On July 09 2016 08:59 zlefin wrote:On July 09 2016 08:49 NukeD wrote:On July 09 2016 08:45 zlefin wrote:On July 09 2016 08:42 NukeD wrote:
[quote]
The Dallas shooting? Am I missing something here? that compared to a lot of other things happening in the world, 5 dead isn't that big of a tragedy. That was the comparison I was noting. it doesn't even change much in the US homicide rate either. Just wow.. Im honestly speechless. not sure how much longer I'll be on for; but if you think of something to say later, or want clarification, you can always pm, or just ask in thread and someone else may be able to answer it. Im just baffled how you do not view this as a tragedy. Honestly I was shocked that this occured, it was all over our news too. My debate is abotu scale; 5 dead is not that big a tragedy. what about the other 40 people murdered in the US today? Let alone the far far worse things that have happened elsewhere. Yes in cases of other 40 dead I would also deem that person's post as unaceptable and disrespective of the victims. Yet we see nobody bring those tragedies up.. See the problem? Or rather, his argument? I am talking about that black ladies twitter post specifically. I didnt go into anything else. Anyway i dont see his argument. Because this is not such a big tragedy I shouldnt think that that lady went too far? my argument was only that it's not such a big tragedy, no more than that. more of a medium tragedy really. A rather narrow point to be sure. but you could always have asked my to clarify my argument/point directly.
It's no Orlando and Nuked's hysterical cries of "how could you possibly cling to free speech when FIVE people are dead?!?!" merited that response. Five dead is bad and all but let's not throw away the basis for a free society to, I guess, teach some black lady to respect our boys in blue? I dunno, Nuked, how exactly would prosecuting people for Facebook posts be an appropriate and useful response to the tragedy?
|
I dont know but I have this image in my mind of the guy who send messages to the parents whos children died, mocking them and writing all sorts of disgusting remarks while taking pride in doing so, and he was indeed prosecuted.
Ok that post doesnt warant a prosecution, I was tilted when posting that. However, i do think that a lot of other facebook posters should get fined for celebrating the killings.
|
On July 09 2016 09:39 NukeD wrote:
I dont know but I have this image in my mind of the guy who send messages to the parents whos children died, mocking them and writing all sorts of disgusting remarks while taking pride in doing so, and he was indeed prosecuted.
Ok that post doesnt warant a prosecution, I was tilted when posting that. However, i do think that a lot of other facebook posters should get fined for celebrating the killings.
they are completely protected under free speech.
|
On July 09 2016 09:44 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2016 09:39 NukeD wrote:
I dont know but I have this image in my mind of the guy who send messages to the parents whos children died, mocking them and writing all sorts of disgusting remarks while taking pride in doing so, and he was indeed prosecuted.
Ok that post doesnt warant a prosecution, I was tilted when posting that. However, i do think that a lot of other facebook posters should get fined for celebrating the killings. they are completely protected under free speech.
Really? I didnt realize it was that BIG of a thing there. Well i guess everything has its pros and cons.
|
On July 09 2016 09:39 NukeD wrote:
I dont know but I have this image in my mind of the guy who send messages to the parents whos children died, mocking them and writing all sorts of disgusting remarks while taking pride in doing so, and he was indeed prosecuted.
Ok that post doesnt warant a prosecution, I was tilted when posting that. However, i do think that a lot of other facebook posters should get fined for celebrating the killings.
Yeah, we don't have a great record of dealing with things through fining in the US. It usually ends up with poor people in prison and rich people doing whatever the hell they want.
Something about not understanding giving the guy in the new Lambo a $1,000 ticket for going 20mph over the limit and giving a person in a 92 geo metro a $500 ticket for going 10 mph over isn't "justice". + Show Spoiler +Particularly when you throw the latter in jail for not being able to pay because he lost his job for being late because the officer insisted he smelled marijuana and needed to search the car to no avail.
|
On July 09 2016 09:46 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2016 09:44 biology]major wrote:On July 09 2016 09:39 NukeD wrote:
I dont know but I have this image in my mind of the guy who send messages to the parents whos children died, mocking them and writing all sorts of disgusting remarks while taking pride in doing so, and he was indeed prosecuted.
Ok that post doesnt warant a prosecution, I was tilted when posting that. However, i do think that a lot of other facebook posters should get fined for celebrating the killings. they are completely protected under free speech. Really? I didnt realize it was that BIG of a thing there. Well i guess everything has its pros and cons.
The Westboro Baptist Church and the KKK exist and operate freely and legally. The WBC makes their money off suing people who violate their right to free speech. You can say deplorable despicable things, that's your right as an American and I stand by it even if I hate the things people choose to say sometimes.
|
BLM marches in London:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-36750533
Hundreds of people have marched on Westminster in protest at the shooting of two black men by police in America.
The Black Lives Matter march went through central London to the Houses of Parliament at about 20:00 BST.
The marchers were heard to shout "Hands up, don't shoot" as they carried banners through the capital.
The march is in response to the fatal shootings of Philando Castile in Minnesota and Alton Sterling in Louisiana.
|
But let's not pretend this would be the only interpretation of free speech. Even among the western nations, free speech is probably the topic with the the biggest differences, even bigger than the differences in opinion on gun culture.
E.g. a very recent case from last month in Germany. A 14yo got sued by her teacher, and then punished to 20 hours of community work, after putting a picture of that teacher on her FB wall, titled "behinderter Lehrer ever", which, after removing her wrong grammer translates to something like "[most] disabled/retarded teacher ever".
Now people may disagree on that verdict, and many probably do, even here. But in general I'm 100% sure, that the Germans would not trade the here used interpretation of free speech for the American one. And yes, I'm aware, that the Americans wouldn't want ours either.
I can see pros and cons with either way. But I actually see both interpretations as compatible with a "free society", unless free society is only what some gunwielding anarcho nutjobs define, when they occupy national park buildings 
|
This is quite an interesting point being raised.
Gary Johnson believes the tensions between police and minorities that led to two high-profile police shootings and the deaths of five Dallas police officers has a root cause: The long-running war on drugs.
The libertarian nominee for president did not directly tie the drug war to the shooting deaths in Minnesota and Louisiana by police or the sniper killings of five officers in Texas this week. But poor relations between police and African-Americans stems from the criminalization of drug use, he said.
“The root is the war on drugs, I believe. Police knocking down doors, shooting first,” Johnson said in an interview Friday in Washington. “If you are (black and) arrested in a drug-related crime, there is four times more likelihood of going to prison than if you are white. And shooting is part of the same phenomenon.”
“That’s the common thread. Shootings are occurring with black people, black people are dying,” he added. “This is an escalation.”
The former Republican governor of New Mexico is pitching a complete rewrite of the nation’s drug policy as part of his underdog run for the presidency alongside his running mate, former Massachusetts GOP Gov. Bill Weld. Johnson wants to legalize marijuana and find other ways to deal with harder drugs than long periods of incarceration.
Source
|
On July 09 2016 09:57 mahrgell wrote:But let's not pretend this would be the only interpretation of free speech. Even among the western nations, free speech is probably the topic with the the biggest differences, even bigger than the differences in opinion on gun culture. E.g. a very recent case from last month in Germany. A 14yo got sued by her teacher, and then punished to 20 hours of community work, after putting a picture of that teacher on her FB wall, titled "behinderter Lehrer ever", which, after removing her wrong grammer translates to something like "[most] disabled/retarded teacher ever". Now people may disagree on that verdict, and many probably do, even here. But in general I'm 100% sure, that the Germans would not trade the here used interpretation of free speech for the American one. And yes, I'm aware, that the Americans wouldn't want ours either. I can see pros and cons with either way. But I actually see both interpretations as compatible with a "free society", unless free society is only what some gunwielding anarcho nutjobs define, when they occupy national park buildings
I know the difference in free speech is pretty huge between western countries. I've seriously considered moving back to Scandinavia but free speech is something I'm super turbo insanely set in my ways on. That issue alone stops me.
Speech that everyone loves needs no protection, its the speech that people don't like that needs to be protected. In order to limit what you can and can't say someone ultimately has to be the arbiter or that. Someone has to decide you can say this, but you can't say this or that or the other thing. But that person doesn't live forever, that power passes to the next person and what they think you should and shouldn't be able to say is different. Everyone is all for it when its their guy calling the shots but when its the next guy in charge suddenly it isn't so cool. I'd rather avoid all that personally. Say what you will and I can ignore you or tell you to shove it. It might cause some uncomfortable moments and topics but I'd rather have that than have someone choose what is allowed and not.
On July 09 2016 10:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:This is quite an interesting point being raised. Show nested quote +Gary Johnson believes the tensions between police and minorities that led to two high-profile police shootings and the deaths of five Dallas police officers has a root cause: The long-running war on drugs.
The libertarian nominee for president did not directly tie the drug war to the shooting deaths in Minnesota and Louisiana by police or the sniper killings of five officers in Texas this week. But poor relations between police and African-Americans stems from the criminalization of drug use, he said.
“The root is the war on drugs, I believe. Police knocking down doors, shooting first,” Johnson said in an interview Friday in Washington. “If you are (black and) arrested in a drug-related crime, there is four times more likelihood of going to prison than if you are white. And shooting is part of the same phenomenon.”
“That’s the common thread. Shootings are occurring with black people, black people are dying,” he added. “This is an escalation.”
The former Republican governor of New Mexico is pitching a complete rewrite of the nation’s drug policy as part of his underdog run for the presidency alongside his running mate, former Massachusetts GOP Gov. Bill Weld. Johnson wants to legalize marijuana and find other ways to deal with harder drugs than long periods of incarceration. Source
It certainly is a factor. The war on drugs has been a wholesale disaster.
|
On July 09 2016 10:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:This is quite an interesting point being raised. Show nested quote +Gary Johnson believes the tensions between police and minorities that led to two high-profile police shootings and the deaths of five Dallas police officers has a root cause: The long-running war on drugs.
The libertarian nominee for president did not directly tie the drug war to the shooting deaths in Minnesota and Louisiana by police or the sniper killings of five officers in Texas this week. But poor relations between police and African-Americans stems from the criminalization of drug use, he said.
“The root is the war on drugs, I believe. Police knocking down doors, shooting first,” Johnson said in an interview Friday in Washington. “If you are (black and) arrested in a drug-related crime, there is four times more likelihood of going to prison than if you are white. And shooting is part of the same phenomenon.”
“That’s the common thread. Shootings are occurring with black people, black people are dying,” he added. “This is an escalation.”
The former Republican governor of New Mexico is pitching a complete rewrite of the nation’s drug policy as part of his underdog run for the presidency alongside his running mate, former Massachusetts GOP Gov. Bill Weld. Johnson wants to legalize marijuana and find other ways to deal with harder drugs than long periods of incarceration. Source
Well I don't know if I would call it "the root" so much as a catalyst. The war on drugs provides ample opportunities for deeper issues to play out and also lends itself toward disproportionate outcomes.
That said, it would go a long way toward addressing both street violence and officer involved violence. Most cops shot are shot because of drug related issues. Catch is that you can't just take away that wealth creator for black people. It won't solve much if it's just captured by the corporate white drug lords currently ensuring drug distribution around the US though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
