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On July 08 2016 18:45 ahswtini wrote: i know where greenhorizons's biases lie. this is the guy who called out why TL had no black mods
I don't think I gave a why (it's because there aren't really black people here, Zero's the first I've heard of since Ace) But that conversation was understanding why moderation took things like gay slights/insults more seriously than racially charged stuff, and it makes perfect sense if they have no black mods.
People went on about how it doesn't matter, and such but this probably isn't a good time to hash that out, at least not here.
i wouldn't frame that issue as having no black mods though...
first of all, there just aren't that many mods in general
its just the sum of their biases
it's not hard to envision a world in which lots of nonblack mods took racially charged statements seriously enough for your tastes
personally, i don't think the nature of a personal attack or stereotype-charged quip should matter... i'd just ban all people especially prone to throwing them out offhand without backing them up well
i remember in pre2008 TL when using "gay" as a way to describe gay strats was accepted because people could properly compartmentalize... but we've gone to being less discerning in that regard. honestly, i miss that kind of discretionary judgment where intent mattered and people who felt insulted by things that clearly lacked malicious intent were the stupid ones.
On July 08 2016 18:45 ahswtini wrote: i know where greenhorizons's biases lie. this is the guy who called out why TL had no black mods
I don't think I gave a why (it's because there aren't really black people here, Zero's the first I've heard of since Ace) But that conversation was understanding why moderation took things like gay slights/insults more seriously than racially charged stuff, and it makes perfect sense if they have no black mods.
People went on about how it doesn't matter, and such but this probably isn't a good time to hash that out, at least not here.
i wouldn't frame that issue as having no black mods though...
first of all, there just aren't that many mods in general
its just the sum of their biases
it's not hard to envision a world in which lots of nonblack mods took racially charged statements seriously enough for your tastes
personally, i don't think the nature of a personal attack or stereotype-charged quip should matter... i'd just ban all people especially prone to throwing them out offhand without backing them up well
i remember in pre2008 TL when using "gay" as a way to describe gay strats was accepted because people could properly compartmentalize... but we've gone to being less discerning in that regard. honestly, i miss that kind of discretionary judgment where intent mattered and people who felt insulted by things that clearly lacked malicious intent were the stupid ones.
Meh, I got over it, and it's still one of the least raycist/bigoted places for discussion on the internet (with a diversity of opinions) so I'm just not going to discuss it here. If someones terribly curious about my opinion they can open a blog/website feedback or wherever something like that would belong other than pm.
As much crap as mods get, I really do think they are some of the best modding I've experienced.
@kapi the post below is what I'm talking about. (previously, not the race stuff)
While i certainly do think that the american police for the most part deserves all the hate and criticism they receive, this is a couple of notches too far. I'm actually surprised that this didn't happen way sooner though, because lets be honest for a second: if you constantly kill people of a minority with questionable motives at best, constantly acquitting or not even trying them at all - while also selling guns to everyone who wants one with the justification of being able to protect themselves against a tyrannical government..
This was bound to happen. In no way i'm trying to justify or excuse what happened, i'm trying to say that people who are surprised should take their heads out of their asses. The only surprise is that it took so long for mentally ill people to "retaliate", or whatever they use as justification to kill innocent people (in this case the cops).
Fuck this shit isn't a black or white issue. It's about an unaccountable institution with the power of life and death who have the State (Read: DA and Politicians + Police Unions) that have a rigged system where qualified immunity is king and a culture of criminalism (Thin Blue Line) exists to protect the worst aspects of their institutions. The "good cops" get run out when they try to level charges against the "bad ones". The inevitable situation happens (it's not like we didn't need the Stanford Experiment to prove this true...but whatever), when things spiral out of control. The police as an institution need to be completely revamped, powers revoked, qualified immunity and self-investigation torn asunder, and Force Continuum's re-done. Not to mention that police unions and thin blue line BS should not exist.
If you believe this is only a black or white issue or about racism then you all need to watch this:
It can happen to any one of us if you dare to not treat these P.O.S. like the gods they think they are.
These people had training. They used some pretty advanced infantry tactics and were excellent shots. They took advantage of the march to get a lot of cops in one place but this wasn't some spur of the moment thing.
The chance that this is a response to police killings of blacks is pretty low, unless there's a super underground part of the Black Panthers that announced its existence with this attack or something. The US hasn't seen anything like this since the 70s, if it is blacks thinking they are fighting back or fighting for revenge on police behind it.
Most black people who shoot at police are not legally allowed to possess guns (this is true of a person of any race, if you're the type of person that shoots at cops you're probably already in the system and not allowed to have guns period) and shooting at police with rifles is extremely, extremely rare. This wasn't carried out like an ad hoc revenge attack, it was like a military operation. I feel like there is something much more than racial tension between blacks and police behind this. For all their distrust and dislike of police blacks in the United States have shown no signs of reacting in this militarized way. To go to the lengths of the planning and training this had to have taken? This attack wasn't cooked up over a week or a month or two. It was too well planned and executed. Even if they're ex-military they would have to practice everything they did to stay sharp. That would be a huge change and I don't see that change having occurred in any part of black American society unless again it is very very underground.
On July 08 2016 15:48 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: In the US Media in a nutshell which is fear sells. Responsible coverage is for the other news outlets usually out of the country.
How do you responsibly cover 11 police officers being sniped and 4 killed without using words like chaos and warzone?
Does this happen every day? Concentrated numbers of cops being ambushed and killed? That guy that came around the piller and shot that cop was using a tactical maneuver called 'slicing the pie'. These guys aren't run of the mill 'fuck the police' gangbanger thugs, but clearly trained against fighting military/police forces.
i didnt see any "slicing the pie" in that video, what are u talking about
I'll just copy/paste from some website:
'“Slicing the Pie” or “Pieing” a corner is the term used for a technique used to traverse a corner while clearing a structure or while maneuvering around structures/objects out of doors.
In general, there are but a small handful of methods for dealing with corners, rooms, stairwells etc. You can “button hook” directly into the area and deal with whats there. This is typically a “dynamic” tactic where speed of entry and aggressive action is required. Or you can “Slice the Pie” to negotiate the turn, which is a systematic clearing of the area in “slices”.
Edit (better pic)
The way you accomplish this is by approaching the corner fairly close to the wall with your “pivot point” being the apex of the corner. You then begin a series of small 90 degree side-steps (relative to your line of sight) away from the wall, in a semi-circular manner. After every step you pause and scan each “slice of the pie” from the floor at the corner to the ceiling.'
Ahm.. Not sure about other people, while i agree that these people at least had some form of paramilitary training: there's no advanced techniques to see in this video. In fact, what you describe as "slicing the pie" was a mistake, he was intending to go around on the left side and realized that that's the way the cop is looking, he turns then to the right knowing that he'll be in the back of the cop.
That's not "advanced tactics", that's basic instinct.
edit: he also took the gun off target, which a soldier etc wouldn't do. Look at right after when he realized where the cop is looking, he's taking the gun down and starts "rushing" that pillar, to take the gun back up once he already cleared it on the other side. "Slicing the pie" isn't something that includes running.
Here's actual "slicing the pie". You read way too much into movement that is pretty much self explanatory, and has not much in common with how a soldier etc is trained or approaches a situation like that.
The guy clearly knows what he's doing under fire but it doesn't take special forces training to know how to do what he did in that video.
When I say advanced tactics I mean the cadence of their firing, where they were firing from, how they coordinated their fire. All the stuff they did in their initial attack is stuff militaries around the world train their soldiers to do when they're on the attacking end of an ambush. It's standard I guess you could say but it's also advanced. From reports the start of the attack was very precise.
On July 08 2016 19:49 m4ini wrote: Ahm.. Not sure about other people, while i agree that these people at least had some form of paramilitary training: there's no advanced techniques to see in this video. In fact, what you describe as "slicing the pie" was a mistake, he was intending to go around on the left side and realized that that's the way the cop is looking, he turns then to the right knowing that he'll be in the back of the cop.
That's not "advanced tactics", that's basic instinct.
edit: he also took the gun off target, which a soldier etc wouldn't do. Look at right after when he realized where the cop is looking, he's taking the gun down and starts "rushing" that pillar, to take the gun back up once he already cleared it on the other side. "Slicing the pie" isn't something that includes running.
He was applying a lot of pressure. Basically everyone on English and Serbian language sites with military training is saying this guy knew what he was doing. You don't have to do something textbook, its just one of the safest ways to take corners and he knew where the cop was.
On July 08 2016 19:55 SoSexy wrote: Hope the people who spit on the police on a daily basis are happy now. This was bound to happen Is there any info on the attackers yet?
You don't know why the shooter did this. We don't even know there were snipers.
On July 08 2016 19:55 SoSexy wrote: Hope the people who spit on the police on a daily basis are happy now. This was bound to happen Is there any info on the attackers yet?
Get the fuck out of here with your "hopes" and wait until we know more.
On July 08 2016 19:59 DeepElemBlues wrote: The guy clearly knows what he's doing under fire but it doesn't take special forces training to know how to do what he did in that video.
When I say advanced tactics I mean the cadence of their firing, where they were firing from, how they coordinated their fire. All the stuff they did in their initial attack is stuff militaries around the world train their soldiers to do when they're on the attacking end of an ambush. It's standard I guess you could say but it's also advanced. From reports the start of the attack was very precise.
I can only go off the video zeo linked, and i personally don't see military tactics. And i don't think i've ever seen an american soldier fight like this either, and i've seen american soldiers in actual fire fights. There's a big difference between videogame tactics, and reality. What he did looks more like counterstrike or "the Division" than anything else.
He was applying a lot of pressure. Basically everyone on English and Serbian language sites with military training is saying this guy knew what he was doing. You don't have to do something textbook, its just one of the safest ways to take corners and he knew where the cop was.
Again. You know there's someone behind a pillar. You want to kill him, while being alive yourself. What are you going to do? I don't know how UK soldiers or Serbian soldiers get trained, but i've seen, again, american soldiers fight in real firefights. This does not look like US military training. This looks more like the stuff gun nuts upload on youtube.
edit: and again, most important part: what you describe as "slicing the pie" is simply incorrect. And every "military expert" who says that was totally "slicing the pie", has never actually learned how to CQC.
You think saying stuff like 'the X hour is coming', 'cops must die', 'privileged bastards' everyday wouldn't encourage some degenerates to take action?
On July 08 2016 20:08 SoSexy wrote: You think saying stuff like 'the X hour is coming', 'cops must die', 'privileged bastards' everyday wouldn't encourage some degenerates to take action?
I've never heard the X hour thing, and "cops must die" and "privileged bastards" aren't even in the same hemisphere.
On July 08 2016 20:08 SoSexy wrote: You think saying stuff like 'the X hour is coming', 'cops must die', 'privileged bastards' everyday wouldn't encourage some degenerates to take action?
I've never heard the X hour thing, and "cops must die" and "privileged bastards" aren't even in the same hemisphere.
On July 08 2016 20:08 SoSexy wrote: You think saying stuff like 'the X hour is coming', 'cops must die', 'privileged bastards' everyday wouldn't encourage some degenerates to take action?
I've never heard the X hour thing, and "cops must die" and "privileged bastards" aren't even in the same hemisphere.
I agree - but to some people, they are...
Well best way to handle it is to clearly feed into it, rather than ignore them and let them yell into the void.
On July 08 2016 20:08 m4ini wrote:I can only go off the video zeo linked, and i personally don't see military tactics. And i don't think i've ever seen an american soldier fight like this either, and i've seen american soldiers in actual fire fights. There's a big difference between videogame tactics, and reality. What he did looks more like counterstrike or "the Division" than anything else.
I'm talking about before that video. People who were there said they started the attack by firing some shots and then waited for a moment for everyone to start running around (which would distract the police) before firing again, and a veteran who was there said it sounded to him like they were coordinating their shots and that the cadence of their fire was "strategic." They only hit 1 person who wasn't a cop and they didn't expend hundreds of bullets to hit their targets. The Dallas police chief said that 2 of them were firing from above from not long range but not short range either. They were good shots. I don't think CS or Rainbow Six Vegas or whatever could have taught them how to do everything they did. Even if that one guy at close range did act in the moment more with his balls than with the formal training of soldiers you've seen. What he did worked anyway.
It's not that easy to pull an ambush like this off by teaching yourself how to do it no matter what information you find on the internet or wherever or it would happen more often. Not just in America but many, many places.
On July 08 2016 20:08 SoSexy wrote: You think saying stuff like 'the X hour is coming', 'cops must die', 'privileged bastards' everyday wouldn't encourage some degenerates to take action?
I've never heard the X hour thing, and "cops must die" and "privileged bastards" aren't even in the same hemisphere.
I agree - but to some people, they are...
The whole event was peaceful and the police and protesters were getting along fine. This didn't even happen until the end of the event. The "cops must die" crowd isn't any more prevalent than the blacks must die crowd. They both play a role, but neither can be blamed in isolation of any other facts.
On July 08 2016 19:59 DeepElemBlues wrote: The guy clearly knows what he's doing under fire but it doesn't take special forces training to know how to do what he did in that video.
When I say advanced tactics I mean the cadence of their firing, where they were firing from, how they coordinated their fire. All the stuff they did in their initial attack is stuff militaries around the world train their soldiers to do when they're on the attacking end of an ambush. It's standard I guess you could say but it's also advanced. From reports the start of the attack was very precise.
I can only go off the video zeo linked, and i personally don't see military tactics. And i don't think i've ever seen an american soldier fight like this either, and i've seen american soldiers in actual fire fights. There's a big difference between videogame tactics, and reality. What he did looks more like counterstrike or "the Division" than anything else.
He was applying a lot of pressure. Basically everyone on English and Serbian language sites with military training is saying this guy knew what he was doing. You don't have to do something textbook, its just one of the safest ways to take corners and he knew where the cop was.
Again. You know there's someone behind a pillar. You want to kill him, while being alive yourself. What are you going to do? I don't know how UK soldiers or Serbian soldiers get trained, but i've seen, again, american soldiers fight in real firefights. This does not look like US military training. This looks more like the stuff gun nuts upload on youtube.
edit: and again, most important part: what you describe as "slicing the pie" is simply incorrect. And every "military expert" who says that was totally "slicing the pie", has never actually learned how to CQC.
I didn't say the shooter was ex-military, I'd say he received enough training to know how to fight against armed opposition. It might be some kind of paramilitary camp training, but police officers everywhere severely lack training against these kinds of attacks.
Because I guess nobody expects coordinated attacks with semi-automatic weapons against cops for the sole purpose of killing them.
- Suppressive fire to keep the cop back - Aggressive cut in with proper footwork and stance and grip - Slicing the pie the whole time keeping the proper distance using the cops position as a pivot point (not moving in)
This is just not something regular police are trained to deal with and its no wonder he got outmaneuvered
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LHD7NZs.png)
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