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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 08 2013 00:14 GMT
#8301
On September 07 2013 05:02 RCMDVA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2013 02:47 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
National Address on Tuesday.


So TV time for Syria is officially less important than

* Saturday college football (ND vs Michigan) or the NASCAR race in Richmond
* Sunday NFL
* Monday night NFL

So we get to hear about Syria on Tuesday

Clearly TV time on Syria is less important than all of those things. If Syria really mattered that much, Obama wouldn't be tripping over himself at the last minute to gather political support to do something about it. Instead, he would have diligently laid out a case for intervention well-over a year ago. It is comical how poorly he has handled the situation.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
September 08 2013 02:29 GMT
#8302
Noonan had a good article on this.
The administration has no discernible strategy. A small, limited strike will look merely symbolic, a face-saving measure. A strong, broad strike opens the possibility that the civil war will end in victory for those as bad as or worse than Assad. And time has already passed. Assad has had a chance to plan his response, and do us the kind of damage to which we would have to respond.

There is the issue of U.S. credibility. We speak of this constantly and in public, which has the effect of reducing its power. If we bomb Syria, will the world say, "Oh, how credible America is!" or will they say, "They just bombed people because they think they have to prove they're credible"?


NFL is a far better use of network time than the same talking heads covering how Obama and allies are trying to sway people to their side.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14220 Posts
September 08 2013 02:33 GMT
#8303
On September 08 2013 09:14 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2013 05:02 RCMDVA wrote:
On September 07 2013 02:47 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
National Address on Tuesday.


So TV time for Syria is officially less important than

* Saturday college football (ND vs Michigan) or the NASCAR race in Richmond
* Sunday NFL
* Monday night NFL

So we get to hear about Syria on Tuesday

Clearly TV time on Syria is less important than all of those things. If Syria really mattered that much, Obama wouldn't be tripping over himself at the last minute to gather political support to do something about it. Instead, he would have diligently laid out a case for intervention well-over a year ago. It is comical how poorly he has handled the situation.

Its the same exact way that he handled the sandy hook situation. not really a surprise that it was yet another failure.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
September 08 2013 02:36 GMT
#8304
WASHINGTON -- The Environmental Protection Agency this week quietly withdrew two draft rules dealing with the regulation of chemicals. The potential rules were in limbo at the Office of Management for several years.

One of the rules was a proposal to add Bisphenol A (BPA), a chemical included in many water bottles and other plastic products that has been linked to a number of potential health concerns, to the list of "chemicals of concern" that would be subject to more scrutiny. The EPA also proposed listing eight different types of phthalates, another group of chemicals often used in plastic products, and several types of flame retardants known as polybrominated diphenyl ethers (PBDEs).

The EPA first submitted the proposal to OMB in May 2010, stating that the agency was "concerned that the hazards of these substances and the magnitude of human and/or environmental exposure indicates that they may present an unreasonable risk to human health and/or the environment." The Toxic Substances Control Act allows the EPA to flag chemicals of concern for further analysis. That rule had been at the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs (OIRA), the division of OMB that is supposed to review agency rules, for more than three years. OIRA is supposed to take a maximum of 90 days to review agency rules.

A second rule that EPA withdrew would have forced companies to disclose to the public the chemicals used in products and the health and safety studies the companies have conducted on those chemicals -- much of which companies have been allowed to protect as "confidential business information." That rule had been at OMB since 2011.

Richard Denison, a senior scientist at the Environmental Defense Fund, noted that the EPA had withdrawn the two rules in a blog post on Friday afternoon. In an email statement to The Huffington Post, an EPA spokesman said that the rules were being withdrawn because "they are no longer necessary." The agency pointed to separate work it has since undertaken to evaluate chemical safety, and to other efforts it has made to increase transparency about chemicals. The agency noted a concern that limiting the amount of information that companies can protect as confidential business information "may result in fewer submissions of these important studies."


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
September 08 2013 02:46 GMT
#8305
On September 08 2013 11:33 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2013 09:14 xDaunt wrote:
On September 07 2013 05:02 RCMDVA wrote:
On September 07 2013 02:47 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
National Address on Tuesday.


So TV time for Syria is officially less important than

* Saturday college football (ND vs Michigan) or the NASCAR race in Richmond
* Sunday NFL
* Monday night NFL

So we get to hear about Syria on Tuesday

Clearly TV time on Syria is less important than all of those things. If Syria really mattered that much, Obama wouldn't be tripping over himself at the last minute to gather political support to do something about it. Instead, he would have diligently laid out a case for intervention well-over a year ago. It is comical how poorly he has handled the situation.

Its the same exact way that he handled the sandy hook situation. not really a surprise that it was yet another failure.


not even close to being comparable events. Sandy hook is small fry, it's more reality television than anything else. What is there to handle about it? Just prurient interest really. Syria is a major geopolitical incident. That being said. Obama is clearly in over his head and doesn't know what to do (the fact that there are no good moves obviously doesn't help)
shikata ga nai
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
September 08 2013 19:16 GMT
#8306
The thing is that if Obama ignored Congress, that is if they vote No on Syria, and he proceeds anyways to attack. The very few GOP who are calling for impeachment could find louder more numerous voices.


WASHINGTON -- Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) said Sunday that he won't filibuster a vote on use of force against Syria, but he will fight to ensure President Barack Obama cannot act without congressional approval.

"I will insist on at least one vote where we try to say, hey, this is not political show," Paul said on "Fox News Sunday." "This is not constitutional theater, this is a binding vote."

It remains unclear whether there are enough votes in Congress to authorize strikes on Syria, a move both chambers will discuss this week when they return from the August recess. Obama announced last week that he would turn to Congress for a vote, but hasn't ruled out acting even if members vote against his plan.

Paul said he will introduce an amendment that prohibits the president from doing so.

"I will insist there is full debate on this and I will insist that I get an amendment and my amendment will say the vote is binding," he said. "That the president cannot, if we vote him down, decide to go to war anyway."

Paul said last week that he would not filibuster a Syria vote, and made the same point on Sunday.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-08 19:21:14
September 08 2013 19:20 GMT
#8307
On September 09 2013 04:16 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
The thing is that if Obama ignored Congress, that is if they vote No on Syria, and he proceeds anyways to attack. The very few GOP who are calling for impeachment could find louder more numerous voices.


Show nested quote +
WASHINGTON -- Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) said Sunday that he won't filibuster a vote on use of force against Syria, but he will fight to ensure President Barack Obama cannot act without congressional approval.

"I will insist on at least one vote where we try to say, hey, this is not political show," Paul said on "Fox News Sunday." "This is not constitutional theater, this is a binding vote."

It remains unclear whether there are enough votes in Congress to authorize strikes on Syria, a move both chambers will discuss this week when they return from the August recess. Obama announced last week that he would turn to Congress for a vote, but hasn't ruled out acting even if members vote against his plan.

Paul said he will introduce an amendment that prohibits the president from doing so.

"I will insist there is full debate on this and I will insist that I get an amendment and my amendment will say the vote is binding," he said. "That the president cannot, if we vote him down, decide to go to war anyway."

Paul said last week that he would not filibuster a Syria vote, and made the same point on Sunday.


Source

I haven't looked at the rules for a while, but I believe that Obama can constitutionally attack Syria if there is no vote. However, if there is a vote and it does not pass, an attack may be impeachable.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-08 19:24:38
September 08 2013 19:23 GMT
#8308
Not physically.

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
September 08 2013 19:27 GMT
#8309
doesn't obama's putting the question to congress clearly show that he hopes they will say no?
shikata ga nai
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22679 Posts
September 08 2013 20:03 GMT
#8310
On September 09 2013 04:27 sam!zdat wrote:
doesn't obama's putting the question to congress clearly show that he hopes they will say no?

It could be but with all the talk about illegal wars it would also be understandable he would want a yes to appear less of a warmonger.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 08 2013 20:43 GMT
#8311
On September 09 2013 04:27 sam!zdat wrote:
doesn't obama's putting the question to congress clearly show that he hopes they will say no?

He is passing the buck for political purposes.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
September 08 2013 20:56 GMT
#8312
politics: the continuation of hot potato by other means
shikata ga nai
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
September 09 2013 00:14 GMT
#8313
"it's not that i don't want to do it, they just didn't let me. lel congressional authority yo."
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
September 09 2013 02:08 GMT
#8314
In the five weeks since he declared his support for a comprehensive immigration overhaul, U.S. Rep. Daniel Webster has gotten an earful.

One constituent told the second-term Republican that immigrants carry disease. Another said immigrants would steal jobs away from Americans.

"You cannot stop illegal immigration by rewarding it," another man said at a recent town hall-style meeting in Groveland, a rural community west of Orlando. "Amnesty is a reward."

As Congress returns to work this week after its summer break, Webster faces perhaps an even tougher crowd: fellow Republicans.

Webster is among about two dozen GOP lawmakers who support an eventual path to citizenship for millions of people who are living in the U.S. illegally. These Republicans are facing the daunting challenge of trying to persuade colleagues to follow them.

Most Republicans oppose this approach on citizenship, and there is little political incentive for them to change their minds. Only 24 of 233 Republicans represent districts where more than one-quarter of their constituents are Hispanic.

Even so, some in the Republican Party argue that its future hinges on whether the House finds a way to embrace an immigration overhaul, which is a crucial issue for the country's fast-growing bloc of Hispanic voters.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-09 03:23:09
September 09 2013 03:21 GMT
#8315
The fatal conceit is calling the immigration overhaul comprehensive in any form or fashion. As it exists in current debate, it is a form of legal status immediately, and a real southern border up to the discretion of the same people who don't mind its porosity in the least bit. The Republican support for a path to citizenship hides the presence of an activist court able to brand rights denied to illegal aliens as violations of the equal protection clause (wouldn't even need to be activist in the context of recent decisions, really). The pretty term of 'comprehensive' is expressly created to hide its narrow focus on amnesty.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5080 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-09 03:48:00
September 09 2013 03:47 GMT
#8316
If a president loses a vote to attack country X and attacks it anyway he should be impeached I don't care who he is or what party he's from. Going ahead anyway technically might not violate the letter of the Constitution but it would be a huge assault on the spirit of the Constitution. It would be the kind of thing historians would look a hundred years from now and say, "that was a huge victory for the power of the executive and a weakening of the Congress" we don't need the presidency getting any more powerful than it is especially at the expense of the Congress.
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
HunterX11
Profile Joined March 2009
United States1048 Posts
September 09 2013 16:54 GMT
#8317
On September 09 2013 12:47 DeepElemBlues wrote:
If a president loses a vote to attack country X and attacks it anyway he should be impeached I don't care who he is or what party he's from. Going ahead anyway technically might not violate the letter of the Constitution but it would be a huge assault on the spirit of the Constitution. It would be the kind of thing historians would look a hundred years from now and say, "that was a huge victory for the power of the executive and a weakening of the Congress" we don't need the presidency getting any more powerful than it is especially at the expense of the Congress.


Obama already lost the vote to continue bombing Libya and did it anyway. Though I really wouldn't mind a crisis if it finally weakened the War Powers Act.
Try using both Irradiate and Defensive Matrix on an Overlord. It looks pretty neat.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
September 09 2013 17:03 GMT
#8318
Wouldn't it be ironic if Putin saves Obama a political nightmare. Or maybe that Putin has just seen very compelling evidence. Either way.any port in a storm.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14220 Posts
September 09 2013 17:33 GMT
#8319
On September 10 2013 02:03 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Wouldn't it be ironic if Putin saves Obama a political nightmare. Or maybe that Putin has just seen very compelling evidence. Either way.any port in a storm.

When the russians are the ones that are reasonable and providieng the diplomatic solution to a problem the worlds really fucked up.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
HunterX11
Profile Joined March 2009
United States1048 Posts
September 09 2013 17:55 GMT
#8320
On September 10 2013 02:03 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Wouldn't it be ironic if Putin saves Obama a political nightmare. Or maybe that Putin has just seen very compelling evidence. Either way.any port in a storm.


Syria offering to give up chemical weapons is probably going to deter the U.S. about as much as Iran offering to give up enriching uranium did.
Try using both Irradiate and Defensive Matrix on an Overlord. It looks pretty neat.
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