EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 418
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Roe
Canada6002 Posts
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On September 11 2013 01:55 aksfjh wrote: I meant the inequality between labor and capital, not "income." It was probably the wrong use. Globalization in the 60s and 70s was stronger than in the 1900s-30s, as there were fewer tariffs and wars obstructing trade. Not to mention the widespread use of air travel, creating a new method of transporting goods, services, and people abroad. Well in the 60s and 70s you also had half the world cut off because of the cold war. Trading services was also much more difficult until the past couple decades when communication went global. On September 11 2013 02:12 Roe wrote: This discussion is already diseased because of the terminology you guys are using. "Success", "unreasonable hate engine", "Workers". The language is so vague and parabolic that nothing meaningful can come of it. ofc, read the title of the thread  | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
He's defining success as making shit tons of cash, which is bizarre. The American Dream used to be a kind of modest middle class lifestyle, but nowadays Republicans act like anyone who wants that is another loser. Suddenly only cash matters. Just look at their attitude toward teachers, which is a perfectly respectable profession. Yet they treat them like scum. High Skilled senior workers are oftentimes total badasses. They are absolute rock stars in what they do. And they make good money, but not as much as people who's primary skill is having lots of capital. Workers are the ones that actually do things. | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On September 11 2013 01:52 DoubleReed wrote: How is that not about inequality? It says that people with capital are taking larger and larger shares of income. It only went up in the late 90s. It goes along with how workers are completely denigrated by one particular side of our politics right now. Less money and less respect for the middle class. More veneration of the 1%. "people with capital" doesn't have to be the rich. See Farvacola's post on the "inclusive capitalism" article and the discussion around it. To your second point, I don't see Democrats stepping up to the plate in this regard. They've been avoiding attempts to put more assets in the hands of the middle class. They've been focused on traditional divisions of labor and capital with the middle class being classified as part of the former. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On September 11 2013 02:49 JonnyBNoHo wrote: "people with capital" doesn't have to be the rich. See Farvacola's post on the "inclusive capitalism" article and the discussion around it. To your second point, I don't see Democrats stepping up to the plate in this regard. They've been avoiding attempts to put more assets in the hands of the middle class. They've been focused on traditional divisions of labor and capital with the middle class being classified as part of the former. Well, have you checked if democrats are stepping up? Because defending workers and being reasonable often doesn't get press. And I don't quite know how that's relevant. Democrats are corrupt as hell. At least they're not actively insulting and degrading the middle class. Once again, your centrism is absolutely relentless. Are you capable of not immediately equivocating in a discussion? | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On September 11 2013 03:00 DoubleReed wrote: Well, have you checked if democrats are stepping up? Because defending workers and being reasonable often doesn't get press. And I don't quite know how that's relevant. Democrats are corrupt as hell. At least they're not actively insulting and degrading the middle class. Once again, your centrism is absolutely relentless. Are you capable of not immediately equivocating in a discussion? You wrote "one particular side of politics" to which I responded. If you don't want me to respond to such phrases, don't make them. If you meant something other than "Republicans" by "one side" than you should have done a better job defining what you meant. | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On September 11 2013 03:03 sam!zdat wrote: the democrats are just neoliberals like republicans they barely even pass as social democrats these days. They mostly exist to pass laws written by republicans as far as I can tell The more I learn the more I don't see any reason why the left shouldn't be using the neoliberal tool kit. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
who are you, margaret thatcher? | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On September 11 2013 03:08 JonnyBNoHo wrote: You wrote "one particular side of politics" to which I responded. If you don't want me to respond to such phrases, don't make them. If you meant something other than "Republicans" by "one side" than you should have done a better job defining what you meant. Nah you read me fine. But saying that Democrats aren't stepping up to defend them is simply not relevant. You're not disagreeing that Republicans are doing that, and I don't think you're accusing democrats as doing the same thing, so there's no problem. I just get the impression that you instinctively try to equivocate for some reason. | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On September 11 2013 03:18 sam!zdat wrote: lol, because then it's not 'the left', it's just neoliberals who are you, margaret thatcher? By "the left" I mean anyone outside of the political system too. So any Marxists out there included. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15394 Posts
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On September 11 2013 03:21 DoubleReed wrote: Nah you read me fine. But saying that Democrats aren't stepping up to defend them is simply not relevant. You're not disagreeing that Republicans are doing that, and I don't think you're accusing democrats as doing the same thing, so there's no problem. I just get the impression that you instinctively try to equivocate for some reason. Well as I said in my original reply to Farv's post on "inclusive capitalism", both Dems and Reps are opposed for different reasons. I see the right as indifferent and the left as fearful, more or less. I'm not trying to "equivocate" I'm trying to ensure that both sides of the issue are presented so that the discussion can progress beyond "those guys are the bad guys." | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On September 11 2013 03:25 JonnyBNoHo wrote: Well as I said in my original reply to Farv's post on "inclusive capitalism", both Dems and Reps are opposed for different reasons. I see the right as indifferent and the left as fearful, more or less. I'm not trying to "equivocate" I'm trying to ensure that both sides of the issue are presented so that the discussion can progress beyond "those guys are the bad guys." But those guys ARE the bad guys!! | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
he's like habermas without the big words | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On September 11 2013 03:25 sam!zdat wrote: so how would neoliberalism help me, on your view? Take the stuff they are built on (markets, financial securities, etc) and use them as the building blocks to create the social structure that you want. Ex. if you want the workers to own the means of production do it through a modern corporate structure. | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
Are they the only bad guys? Killing off one gang of bad guys just gives victory to the other gang of bad guys You gotta divide and conquer! | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
On September 11 2013 03:35 JonnyBNoHo wrote: Take the stuff they are built on (markets, financial securities, etc) and use them as the building blocks to create the social structure that you want. Ex. if you want the workers to own the means of production do it through a modern corporate structure. we don't have the same notion of what 'neoliberalism' is. but yeah when I start my cult it's gonna be a corporation, only way to get any respect these days | ||
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