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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On September 11 2013 03:41 sam!zdat wrote: we don't have the same notion of what 'neoliberalism' is. but yeah when I start my cult it's gonna be a corporation, only way to get any respect these days What's your definition then? It's a go nowhere discussion otherwise. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
neoliberalism is not just 'running things with the skills jonny learned in b school' | ||
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BioNova
United States598 Posts
Kinda like the Day 9 scenario. Games. Delete Feed  Someone asked Yahoo, too damn funny. | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On September 11 2013 03:58 sam!zdat wrote: neoliberalism. Deregulate everything, remove all capital controls, privatize as many government functions as possible, erode welfare state, demand removal of all trade barriers (except us, us allowed to be protectionist), legalize corruption, turn schools into training facilities, replace rising real wages with consumer credit and predatory finance, electronic exchanges and high speed trading, etc etc. Fetishistic/religious belief in the market's divine wisdom neoliberalism is not just 'running things with the skills jonny learned in b school' A bit extreme, but we're largely on the same page there. Maybe if you unpackage some of your loaded terms (like "deregulate") my previous comment will make more sense to you. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On September 11 2013 05:06 sam!zdat wrote: loaded? I didn't make up the word, the neoliberals use it themselves. They think it is a panacea. Basically what you are saying is that 'leftists should not be leftists' which is just the same as 'i am not a leftist', which I already knew "deregulation" can mean many things. That's what I mean by loaded. It's not a generic thing. Edit: My intention is not to say that leftists shouldn't be leftists, but rather to say that leftists should allow for more openness in differentiating between tools and goals. | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5080 Posts
On September 11 2013 03:58 sam!zdat wrote: neoliberalism. Deregulate everything, remove all capital controls, privatize as many government functions as possible, erode welfare state, demand removal of all trade barriers (except us, us allowed to be protectionist), legalize corruption, turn schools into training facilities, replace rising real wages with consumer credit and predatory finance, electronic exchanges and high speed trading, etc etc. Fetishistic/religious belief in the market's divine wisdom neoliberalism is not just 'running things with the skills jonny learned in b school' that's a rothbardian anarcho-capitalist fantasy not neoliberalism guys you gotta stop giving samipanda so much credence when he bullshits about the definitions of things the samipanda dictionary is significantly different from the actual dictionary the actual dictionary doesnt shoehorn everything into the hegelian prison samipanda locked himself up in many moons ago | ||
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farvacola
United States18870 Posts
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
On September 11 2013 05:13 DoubleReed wrote: You don't have to be a neoliberal to be a leftist... I don't... What? | ||
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HunterX11
United States1048 Posts
On September 11 2013 05:20 DeepElemBlues wrote: that's a rothbardian anarcho-capitalist fantasy not neoliberalism guys you gotta stop giving samipanda so much credence when he bullshits about the definitions of things the samipanda dictionary is significantly different from the actual dictionary the actual dictionary doesnt shoehorn everything into the hegelian prison samipanda locked himself up in many moons ago In certain senses, the ideological promotion of neoliberalism IS largely Rothbardian anarcho-capitalist fantasy. What complicates this is that in reality, the actual neoliberal policies that get implemented are the ones that serve particular concrete agendas, rather than fulfilling any ideological goal. But then you can end up in an argument about whether we should take people's professed ideas at face value at all when the effects of these ideas (and sometimes even the reason these ideas were ever promoted in the first place) are different than what the ideologues genuinely want, such as libertarian think tanks promoting legislation that benefits rent-seeking firms that ought to be considered "statist" and bad for their perspectives. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
I must have misread you. | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On September 11 2013 04:59 JonnyBNoHo wrote: A bit extreme, but we're largely on the same page there. Maybe if you unpackage some of your loaded terms (like "deregulate") my previous comment will make more sense to you. Deregulate is pretty much the least loaded term there. You can call "erode the welfare state" and most of what comes after it loaded terms, but the first three are pretty straight-up what neoliberalism set out to do (as in, neoliberalism largely embraced those exact terms). | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On September 11 2013 03:25 Mohdoo wrote: WP Obama. He intimidated Syria into submission without any need for attacking. Please tell me that you're joking. Obama is the laughing stock of the world right now. | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On September 11 2013 05:50 Sbrubbles wrote: Deregulate is pretty much the least loaded term there. You can call "erode the welfare state" and most of what comes after it loaded terms, but the first three are pretty straight-up what neoliberalism set out to do (as in, neoliberalism largely embraced those exact terms). I've considered deregulation to be a loaded term ever since California "deregulated" its energy market in the 90's. | ||
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hacklebeast
United States5090 Posts
On September 11 2013 03:41 sam!zdat wrote: we don't have the same notion of what 'neoliberalism' is. but yeah when I start my cult it's gonna be a corporation, only way to get any respect these days I could get behind a cult who's purpose to preform ancient rituals to attempt to manifest your legal person as a physical person. | ||
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farvacola
United States18870 Posts
On September 11 2013 06:18 xDaunt wrote: Please tell me that you're joking. Obama is the laughing stock of the world right now. Nah, it's mostly just conservatives looking to make a negative case out of any possible scenario that are expectantly looking around as though a hilarious joke has been told. For many others, the postponement or possible abandonment of military action looks good no matter what. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On September 11 2013 06:28 farvacola wrote: Nah, it's mostly just conservatives looking to make a negative case out of any possible scenario that are expectantly looking around as though a hilarious joke has been told. For many others, the postponement or possible abandonment of military action looks good no matter what. Don't get me wrong. I'm not a fan of bombing Syria at all. However, let's not pretend that Obama pulled off some foreign policy coup here. Obama didn't do anything other than get egg on his face for his equivocation. Russia is the one that got Syria to come to the table here. Obama had nothing to do with it. More importantly, Syria hasn't committed to doing anything yet. There's a reason why it is basically universally acknowledged by anyone who isn't a hardcore Obama fan that Obama has badly mismanaged this situation. | ||
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farvacola
United States18870 Posts
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
SAN FRANCISCO — Federal officials on Tuesday released previously classified documents showing misuse of a domestic spying program in 2009. The Obama administration has been facing mounting pressure to reveal more details about the government's domestic surveillance program since a former intelligence contractor released documents showing massive National Security Agency trawling of domestic data. The information included domestic telephone numbers, calling patterns and the agency's collection of Americans' Internet user names, IP addresses and other metadata swept up in surveillance of foreign terror suspects. The documents released Tuesday relate to a time in 2009 when U.S. spies went too far in collecting domestic phone data and then mislead a secret spy court about their activities. The documents came in response to a lawsuit filed by the Electronic Frontier Foundation. A federal judge in 2011 said in a declassified order that he was troubled by at least three incidents over three years where government officials admitted to mistaken collection of domestic data. Source | ||
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