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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On May 25 2016 19:57 Chewbacca. wrote:
Am I missing something, or was that not just an opinion poll by some random journalist (?). I haven't seen anything saying there will actually be a debate between the two.
Yeah the tweet is basically just for the sake of followers. Lots of Bernie supporters eat stuff like that up. Pretending Bernie still has a chance has been wonderful for people in media.
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Defunding democratic tickets, isolationist, anti-science, anti-Hillary, pro futile debates. The similarities between trump and Bernie are frighteningly similar. They both even have violent fan bases.
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On May 25 2016 23:34 TMagpie wrote:
Defunding democratic tickets, isolationist, anti-science, anti-Hillary, pro futile debates. The similarities between trump and Bernie are frighteningly similar. They both even have violent fan bases.
I think the main thing they have in common is the problematic perspective of "I don't care if this doesn't sound reasonable. Something MUST change!". It's just so blind and idealistic. It's like people assume the world is some Disney movie where all you need to do is believe strong enough and oligarchy will be crumbled. "If we are united, and we phone bank enough, we will topple money in politics!"
Edit: Looks like Clinton is officially in the clear regarding emails. Whether she did something wrong or not, the following will make sure she is never convicted of anything:
The report broadly criticized the State Department as well, saying that officials had been “slow to recognize and to manage effectively the legal requirements and cybersecurity risks” that emerged in the era of emails, particularly those of senior officials like Mrs. Clinton.
It said that “longstanding systemic weaknesses” in handling electronic records went “well beyond the tenure of any one secretary of state” but the body of the report focused on the 30,000 emails that Mrs. Clinton sent and received on her private server.
Source
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9 Million people voted for Sanders and I doubt the majority of them are like that. The simple fact is the internet and media funnel the worst actors to us. I have several friends that are Trump supporters too, which I have had to unfollow on face book, but I do not think they are the awful people that punch protesters at rallies and talk about wanting to kill them.
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On May 25 2016 23:34 TMagpie wrote:
Defunding democratic tickets, isolationist, anti-science, anti-Hillary, pro futile debates. The similarities between trump and Bernie are frighteningly similar. They both even have violent fan bases.
Trumps base isn't violent. In fact, they are very anti-violence and shame anyone who attempts to use it because a large part of what they're running on is caring about their country and communities and upholding the law. A portion of anger from them is that they dislike seeing their communities broken and destroyed. However even with this legitimate source of anger they still uphold the law. I can source countless violence from protesters, but what, 5-10 guys who've taken swings at legitimate agitators who've constantly tested their patience? It's not the same, and quantifying it as the same is completely nonsense.
Or maybe you think it's a coincidence that 99% of the violence comes from anti-trump protesters, that they continually protest and shut down any events they disagree with both large (trump rallies) and small (university campus get togethers). Thousands of calls for assassination, and an actual assassination attempt even. Hell, they are so for actual fascism and silencing opponents that they will silence anything that doesn't fit their narrative as is happening at more and more college campuses. it's no coincidence that police every police department finds themselves wanting to vote Trump after a run in with protesters and 'listening' to their side of the story. Maybe, 'fuck the police. fuck free speech' and other highly suspect chants aren't the best way to go about selling your side.
http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016/03/19/donald-trump-utah-rally-protests-sanchez-lklv.cnn
http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016/05/25/donald-trump-protesters-break-through-barriers-simon-live.cnn/video/playlists/protests-at-trump-rallies/
http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/24/politics/donald-trump-albuquerque-protesters-police/index.html
Here's what Trump supporters are voting against. This kind of behavior. Obama even addressed it.
Silencing free speech that goes against the narrative
+ Show Spoiler +http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/253641-obama-hits-coddled-liberal-college-students
assassination calls & an actual assassination attempt. Just google trump assassination calls on twitter. Countless of them. Facebook, twitter, it's just an okay thing to say! "Them and the other 47% of the country should just die".
+ Show Spoiler +
Sanders could have helped himself a lot more by telling them to cut this shit out. But instead he went 'viva la revolution!' mode.
I think the isolationist argument is debatable but has some merit. Creating some friction in relations that aren't necessarily great right now.. yes. i.e. 5 of the 28 nato countries were fulfilling their obligations to spend 2% on military.
I think the anti-science is the fringe that is outlined, however it will happen at a higher % because of the Christian base. However online, a large % of Trump supporters are from everywhere, and a lot are atheist / agnostic. And the Anti-Hillary is clear if this truly is an 'anti-establishment' year.
It's a difficult balance for everyone involved. Because the far right is dangerous. But the far right at least has the respect for the rule of law. The same cannot be said for the far left atm, and I can post a lot more content to showcase this with very recent activity on their behalf. Both on attempts to silence others and just general unruly and destructive behavior.
Mohdoo's point of Trump supporters possibly being idealists on the other hand is very valid. I can't however say Trump supporters are blind, because they're probably the most hyper-informed people in the entire mess. Between the two sides, Hillary is supposed to be the sane looking realistic one.
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Lol yes, Trump supporters are "hyper-informed" and the far-right respects the rule of law. It's as though Cliven Bundy isn't real!
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On May 26 2016 01:17 farvacola wrote:
Lol yes, Trump supporters are "hyper-informed" and the far-right respects the rule of law. It's as though Cliven Bundy isn't real!
Hillary supporters are informed then? Let's at least be fair and acknowledge that any candidate has a base of supporters who are not particularly informed.
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Most of Trumps base is not even the far right. They will be a part of it but you can't choose your allies in a two party system. You can only choose the side you feel has more legitimate concerns at the moment. It's a mix of former democrats, independents, and a new movement that isn't nearly as religious as those Cliven Bundy folks. It's labelled the 'alt-right' but that's not best description of them.
Right now if you ask a Trump supporter JFK's famous question they would probably answer
"What can I do for my country?"
With a Bernie supporter you'd probably get
"What can my country do for me"
With a Hillary supporter you might get
"Countries are dead. It's all about corporations now fools."
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Well this has degraded into pure stawmen.
On the side note, the email issue is resolved and the report says exactly what I expected, the problem proceeded Clinton by 5 heads of the state department and she was no outlier. And the government has garbage cyber security practices in general.
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On May 26 2016 01:26 Plansix wrote:On the side note, the email issue is resolved and the report says exactly what I expected, the problem proceeded Clinton by 5 heads of the state department and she was no outlier. And the government has garbage cyber security practices in general.
Yeah, its funny how the emails ended up just being a part of the same "GOP deathly afraid of Clinton" meme. A completely bogus investigation? Oh, right, another one.
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I am an atheist who is basically an anti-theist and I'm voting for trump. I am sure there are many closet trump supporters out there. Only my girlfriend, family, and very close friends know I'm voting for trump. Everyone else I'm in the closet.Kind of have to be as a trump supporter in our age group. Most of my friends are very democrat and believe in the rhetoric that all trump supporters are racist/sexist. Can't claim you're a trump supporter unless you want to be labeled.
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On May 26 2016 01:22 SK.Testie wrote:
Most of Trumps base is not even the far right. They will be a part of it but you can't choose your allies in a two party system. You can only choose the side you feel has more legitimate concerns at the moment. It's a mix of former democrats, independents, and a new movement that isn't nearly as religious as those Cliven Bundy folks. It's labelled the 'alt-right' but that's not best description of them.
Right now if you ask a Trump supporter JFK's famous question they would probably answer
"What can I do for my country?"
With a Bernie supporter you'd probably get
"What can my country do for me"
With a Hillary supporter you might get
"Countries are dead. It's all about corporations now fools."
I've done a lot of research and reading recently to figure out what exactly the "alt-right" is. As far as I can tell, it is beyond definition other than clearly being antithetical to many tenets of traditional conservativism and neoconservativism. The range of people who can be potentially be classified as part of the alt-right is huge, including everything from blue dog/moderate democrats to right wing white supremacists. If nothing else, the alt-right is a very interesting development.
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On May 26 2016 01:30 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2016 01:22 SK.Testie wrote:
Most of Trumps base is not even the far right. They will be a part of it but you can't choose your allies in a two party system. You can only choose the side you feel has more legitimate concerns at the moment. It's a mix of former democrats, independents, and a new movement that isn't nearly as religious as those Cliven Bundy folks. It's labelled the 'alt-right' but that's not best description of them.
Right now if you ask a Trump supporter JFK's famous question they would probably answer
"What can I do for my country?"
With a Bernie supporter you'd probably get
"What can my country do for me"
With a Hillary supporter you might get
"Countries are dead. It's all about corporations now fools." I've done a lot of research and reading recently to figure out what exactly the "alt-right" is. As far as I can tell, it is beyond definition other than clearly being antithetical to many tenets of traditional conservativism and neoconservativism. The range of people who can be potentially be classified as part of the alt-right is huge, including everything from blue dog/moderate democrats to right wing white supremacists. If nothing else, the alt-right is a very interesting development.
Happy to see you guys dealing with the same shit we've dealt with for years. Bunch of idiots who have thousands of different beliefs, none of them particularly well articulated, founded or supported. Just a bunch of little things here and there, with extreme passion, but with no direction at all.
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On May 26 2016 00:31 Plansix wrote:
9 Million people voted for Sanders and I doubt the majority of them are like that. The simple fact is the internet and media funnel the worst actors to us. I have several friends that are Trump supporters too, which I have had to unfollow on face book, but I do not think they are the awful people that punch protesters at rallies and talk about wanting to kill them.
How tolerant.
You know, I never understood this almost cult like practice with these social justice types. There is widespread peer pressure to cut out anyone that doesn't agree with whatever the cult says from your life. How dare they not follow the teachings! Your sister thinks women make the same as men? Cut her out. Your long time friend thinks having an abortion in the 8th month of a pregnancy can't be healthy? Cut him out. Cut, cut, cut cut, you don't need any lifelong friends or family, you've got a new family now.
It just seems like such a mentally unhealthy lifestyle to live, so much negativity and hate. And of course give your life savings to the cult leader's cause *cough* campaign *cough*
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On May 26 2016 01:30 SolaR- wrote:
I am an atheist who is basically an anti-theist and I'm voting for trump. I am sure there are many closet trump supporters out there. Only my girlfriend, family, and very close friends know I'm voting for trump. Everyone else I'm in the closet.Kind of have to be as a trump supporter in our age group. Most of my friends are very democrat and believe in the rhetoric that all trump supporters are racist/sexist. Can't claim you're a trump supporter unless you want to be labeled.
I don’t believe every Trump supporter is racists. I just believe Trump is pandering to racists for their votes and is receiving a lot of support from known racists. And this belief has evolved and been affirmed over time. And that is one of the numerous reasons why I believe he cannot be in that office and is dangerous.
The overuse of the word rhetoric in political discussions is just a way to devalue peoples own assessment and review of Trump and Clinton. Of course there are biased sources, but it is possible to find solid information within that biased coverage.
On May 26 2016 01:36 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2016 00:31 Plansix wrote:
9 Million people voted for Sanders and I doubt the majority of them are like that. The simple fact is the internet and media funnel the worst actors to us. I have several friends that are Trump supporters too, which I have had to unfollow on face book, but I do not think they are the awful people that punch protesters at rallies and talk about wanting to kill them. How tolerant. You know, I never understood this almost cult like practice with these social justice types. There is widespread peer pressure to cut out anyone that doesn't agree with whatever the cult says from your life. How dare they not follow the teachings! Your sister thinks women make the same as men? Cut her out. Your long time friend thinks having an abortion in the 8th month of a pregnancy can't be healthy? Cut him out. Cut, cut, cut cut, you don't need any lifelong friends or family, you've got a new family now. It just seems like such a mentally unhealthy lifestyle to live, so much negativity and hate. And of course give your life savings to the cult leader's cause *cough* campaign *cough*
I never understood the need to judge people based on your preconceived ideas and biases. I don’t use facebook for “debate” or anything beyond keeping in touch with people. 99% of my use of facebook is to view photos of my niece and nephew and set up meet ups with friends.
Some of those people how are know are spamming my feed full of political shit, both trump and sanders, which I need to scroll through to see the things I want. To I remove them because my time is important and their political memes are not.
Most of the time, I don’t want to debate politics. And I don’t what to debate it on a shit medium like facebook.
But I am touched that you are concerned for my mental health. I will file that concern right next to my cousin who is appalled I live with my fiancée before marriage.
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On May 26 2016 01:30 SolaR- wrote:
I am an atheist who is basically an anti-theist and I'm voting for trump. I am sure there are many closet trump supporters out there. Only my girlfriend, family, and very close friends know I'm voting for trump. Everyone else I'm in the closet.Kind of have to be as a trump supporter in our age group. Most of my friends are very democrat and believe in the rhetoric that all trump supporters are racist/sexist. Can't claim you're a trump supporter unless you want to be labeled.
that is unfortunate, it has been a very divisive election season, especially on the trump issue.
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On May 26 2016 01:35 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2016 01:30 xDaunt wrote:On May 26 2016 01:22 SK.Testie wrote:
Most of Trumps base is not even the far right. They will be a part of it but you can't choose your allies in a two party system. You can only choose the side you feel has more legitimate concerns at the moment. It's a mix of former democrats, independents, and a new movement that isn't nearly as religious as those Cliven Bundy folks. It's labelled the 'alt-right' but that's not best description of them.
Right now if you ask a Trump supporter JFK's famous question they would probably answer
"What can I do for my country?"
With a Bernie supporter you'd probably get
"What can my country do for me"
With a Hillary supporter you might get
"Countries are dead. It's all about corporations now fools." I've done a lot of research and reading recently to figure out what exactly the "alt-right" is. As far as I can tell, it is beyond definition other than clearly being antithetical to many tenets of traditional conservativism and neoconservativism. The range of people who can be potentially be classified as part of the alt-right is huge, including everything from blue dog/moderate democrats to right wing white supremacists. If nothing else, the alt-right is a very interesting development. Happy to see you guys dealing with the same shit we've dealt with for years. Bunch of idiots who have thousands of different beliefs, none of them particularly well articulated, founded or supported. Just a bunch of little things here and there, with extreme passion, but with no direction at all.
I don't think that the alt-right is quite so intellectually vapid. There are elements of it that are very well-grounded in articulate beliefs.
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On May 26 2016 01:40 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2016 01:35 Mohdoo wrote:On May 26 2016 01:30 xDaunt wrote:On May 26 2016 01:22 SK.Testie wrote:
Most of Trumps base is not even the far right. They will be a part of it but you can't choose your allies in a two party system. You can only choose the side you feel has more legitimate concerns at the moment. It's a mix of former democrats, independents, and a new movement that isn't nearly as religious as those Cliven Bundy folks. It's labelled the 'alt-right' but that's not best description of them.
Right now if you ask a Trump supporter JFK's famous question they would probably answer
"What can I do for my country?"
With a Bernie supporter you'd probably get
"What can my country do for me"
With a Hillary supporter you might get
"Countries are dead. It's all about corporations now fools." I've done a lot of research and reading recently to figure out what exactly the "alt-right" is. As far as I can tell, it is beyond definition other than clearly being antithetical to many tenets of traditional conservativism and neoconservativism. The range of people who can be potentially be classified as part of the alt-right is huge, including everything from blue dog/moderate democrats to right wing white supremacists. If nothing else, the alt-right is a very interesting development. Happy to see you guys dealing with the same shit we've dealt with for years. Bunch of idiots who have thousands of different beliefs, none of them particularly well articulated, founded or supported. Just a bunch of little things here and there, with extreme passion, but with no direction at all. I don't think that the alt-right is quite so intellectually vapid. There are elements of it that are very well-grounded in articulate beliefs.
Sure, same with alt-left. They've got some stellar idea, mixed in with all the gunk. But as a whole, I would say alt-movements lack depth, rigor and most other components that are necessary to make actual political movements/changes. At the end of the day, they are largely people who prefer to complain on the internet rather than stand in line to vote and be a part of society.
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On May 26 2016 01:38 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2016 01:30 SolaR- wrote:
I am an atheist who is basically an anti-theist and I'm voting for trump. I am sure there are many closet trump supporters out there. Only my girlfriend, family, and very close friends know I'm voting for trump. Everyone else I'm in the closet.Kind of have to be as a trump supporter in our age group. Most of my friends are very democrat and believe in the rhetoric that all trump supporters are racist/sexist. Can't claim you're a trump supporter unless you want to be labeled. I don’t believe every Trump supporter is racists. I just believe Trump is pandering to racists for their votes and is receiving a lot of support from known racists. And this belief has evolved and been affirmed over time. And that is one of the numerous reasons why I believe he cannot be in that office and is dangerous. The overuse of the word rhetoric in political discussions is just a way to devalue peoples own assessment and review of Trump and Clinton. Of course there are biased sources, but it is possible to find solid information within that biased coverage.
From our discussions on TL, I have learned that you do not think all Trump supporters are racist. People on TL are generally more informed and not as simple-minded. However, the average college graduate at least in my area gets the majority of their news on buzzfeed and social media. They all think that trump supporters are all old white racist men. I only used the word rhetoric, because the average person seems easily motivated by it.
For example, my girlfriend and I have recently joined a new circle of friends who are your typical bernie supporters. They all gossip about who they know supports trump and label that person ignorant or what not. I could not tell those people that I support trump without them making unfair judgements about me.
Obviously, this applies on the other end as well. Conservatives claiming liberals are tearing our country a part and that they are weak and a bunch of other bullshit.
Sadly, alot of peope treat poltics like the Nfl. They have to have a team they rally behind and constantly talk about why their team is better than your team.
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On May 26 2016 01:54 SolaR- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2016 01:38 Plansix wrote:On May 26 2016 01:30 SolaR- wrote:
I am an atheist who is basically an anti-theist and I'm voting for trump. I am sure there are many closet trump supporters out there. Only my girlfriend, family, and very close friends know I'm voting for trump. Everyone else I'm in the closet.Kind of have to be as a trump supporter in our age group. Most of my friends are very democrat and believe in the rhetoric that all trump supporters are racist/sexist. Can't claim you're a trump supporter unless you want to be labeled. I don’t believe every Trump supporter is racists. I just believe Trump is pandering to racists for their votes and is receiving a lot of support from known racists. And this belief has evolved and been affirmed over time. And that is one of the numerous reasons why I believe he cannot be in that office and is dangerous. The overuse of the word rhetoric in political discussions is just a way to devalue peoples own assessment and review of Trump and Clinton. Of course there are biased sources, but it is possible to find solid information within that biased coverage. From our discussions on TL, I have learned that you do not think all Trump supporters are racist. People on TL are generally more informed and not as simple-minded. However, the average college graduate at least in my area gets the majority of their news on buzzfeed and social media. They all think that trump supporters are all old white racist men. I only used the word rhetoric, because the average person seems easily motivated by it. For example, my girlfriend and I have recently joined a new circle of friends who are your typical bernie supporters. They all gossip about who they know supports trump and label that person ignorant or what not. I could not tell those people that I support trump without them making unfair judgements about me. Obviously, this applies on the other end as well. Conservatives claiming liberals are tearing our country a part and that they are weak and a bunch of other bullshit. Sadly, alot of peope treat poltics like the Nfl. They have to have a team they rally behind and constantly talk about why their team is better than your team.
To be honest, that is a problem with a lot of recent college grads who were able to cherry pick their groups and who they associated with. And in that part of life, there is always another group to join if you burn some bridges. That changes when work and other aspects of life that doesn’t give them that option and the realization that its hard to meet people sets in. That and it is likely their first election and they don’t realize that they have a lot of these ahead of them. Some day they have to ask themselves the question of “why does this person I like support Trump? And do I care that much?”
You should watch “The Best of Enemies” which shows the rise of the “two sides” focused political media. Watch it with those friends, it will be a good discussion.
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