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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
May 24 2016 23:58 GMT
#77541
I find the entire notion that entities so thoroughly entwined with the operation of government as the Democrat and Republican parties get to qualify as "private organizations" and decide on their own (in various questionable and undemocratic ways) about decisions of such national import to be absurd.
The primary processes have a massive effect on who gets to be president of the united states, as well as on who holds numerous other offices.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15732 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-25 00:02:33
May 25 2016 00:02 GMT
#77542
On May 25 2016 08:53 Introvert wrote:
Something needs to be done about the blue states that no GOP candidate will win being worth so much. Either lower their delegate hauls or split up their primary dates. They are meant to push liberal Republicans over the edge. the SEC states are all on that day because they have relatively low delegate numbers individually, so that's fine. But the fact that NY is 95 delegates is absurd. And CA's 172 is ridiculous too, although it rarely matters.

idk, there are so many ideas. Ultimately, the states can decide how to allocate delegates, but it makes sense that the party can change their numbers or influence dates.


Isn't this the opposite of what you want? Imagine of Santorum got a ton of momentum against Romney. Or if Cruz won, lol. I know you were a Cruz supporter, but his chances at the general weren't exactly what a republican would want..
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22068 Posts
May 25 2016 00:08 GMT
#77543
On May 25 2016 08:58 zlefin wrote:
I find the entire notion that entities so thoroughly entwined with the operation of government as the Democrat and Republican parties get to qualify as "private organizations" and decide on their own (in various questionable and undemocratic ways) about decisions of such national import to be absurd.
The primary processes have a massive effect on who gets to be president of the united states, as well as on who holds numerous other offices.

Probably a good solution if your interested in maintaining the 2 party system.
However at the moment one of the 2 has become the party of "(less)no government" so your going to be hard pressed to get them to agree to more government influence in elections.

Besides, leaving it up to the government wont make it better. If that resulted in democratic functions gerrymandering would not exist. So who else is going to do it? A separate independent organization? If you can't get them to use that for drawing voting districts your not going to get them to do it for organizing the primary/
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22068 Posts
May 25 2016 00:11 GMT
#77544
On May 25 2016 08:53 Introvert wrote:
Something needs to be done about the blue states that no GOP candidate will win being worth so much. Either lower their delegate hauls or split up their primary dates. They are meant to push liberal Republicans over the edge. the SEC states are all on that day because they have relatively low delegate numbers individually, so that's fine. But the fact that NY is 95 delegates is absurd. And CA's 172 is ridiculous too, although it rarely matters.

idk, there are so many ideas. Ultimately, the states can decide how to allocate delegates, but it makes sense that the party can change their numbers or influence dates.

If your going to do that you might aswell deduct red states aswell. Their influence in the election is hardly better then a Republican in a blue state. Might aswell only hold the primary in contested states. They are the ones who decide the winner after all.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4886 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-25 00:16:32
May 25 2016 00:14 GMT
#77545
On May 25 2016 09:02 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2016 08:53 Introvert wrote:
Something needs to be done about the blue states that no GOP candidate will win being worth so much. Either lower their delegate hauls or split up their primary dates. They are meant to push liberal Republicans over the edge. the SEC states are all on that day because they have relatively low delegate numbers individually, so that's fine. But the fact that NY is 95 delegates is absurd. And CA's 172 is ridiculous too, although it rarely matters.

idk, there are so many ideas. Ultimately, the states can decide how to allocate delegates, but it makes sense that the party can change their numbers or influence dates.


Isn't this the opposite of what you want? Imagine of Santorum got a ton of momentum against Romney. Or if Cruz won, lol. I know you were a Cruz supporter, but his chances at the general weren't exactly what a republican would want..


Would what be the opposite? I think it's ridiculous that a Republican in Manhattan or San Francisco has a vote that is effectively several times more important than someone in Atlanta.

The party 'rigged' it and lost in 2008. They did the same in 2012. This year, their rules ensured Trump won the nomination with ~40 of the vote. Republicans always play for the general and all it does it make things crazy.


On May 25 2016 08:57 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2016 08:53 Introvert wrote:
Something needs to be done about the blue states that no GOP candidate will win being worth so much. Either lower their delegate hauls or split up their primary dates. They are meant to push liberal Republicans over the edge. the SEC states are all on that day because they have relatively low delegate numbers individually, so that's fine. But the fact that NY is 95 delegates is absurd. And CA's 172 is ridiculous too, although it rarely matters.

idk, there are so many ideas. Ultimately, the states can decide how to allocate delegates, but it makes sense that the party can change their numbers or influence dates.

Why should it be up to the states? Imo the national party should decide on how their primary is run, not at the state level.

Away with different states and different rules. clarity with 1 set of guidelines for every state.


Why shouldn't it be up the states (more precisely, the state party)? Citizens can get involved there too. Simplicity is not an argument.

And while we're at it, they should all be closed.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
May 25 2016 00:39 GMT
#77546
On May 25 2016 09:08 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2016 08:58 zlefin wrote:
I find the entire notion that entities so thoroughly entwined with the operation of government as the Democrat and Republican parties get to qualify as "private organizations" and decide on their own (in various questionable and undemocratic ways) about decisions of such national import to be absurd.
The primary processes have a massive effect on who gets to be president of the united states, as well as on who holds numerous other offices.

Probably a good solution if your interested in maintaining the 2 party system.
However at the moment one of the 2 has become the party of "(less)no government" so your going to be hard pressed to get them to agree to more government influence in elections.

Besides, leaving it up to the government wont make it better. If that resulted in democratic functions gerrymandering would not exist. So who else is going to do it? A separate independent organization? If you can't get them to use that for drawing voting districts your not going to get them to do it for organizing the primary/


I don't expect the results to be any better on the whole; I'd just prefer that they be under some of the rules on decision-making and FOIA and such that would apply to government offices.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23602 Posts
May 25 2016 00:43 GMT
#77547
And while we're at it, they should all be closed.


I fully understand this desire, but I'm not sure it makes sense when after this election it's probable that most people won't belong to either party. Sounds like an excellent way to kill the party and make room for a new one though.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11398 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-25 02:17:06
May 25 2016 02:15 GMT
#77548
On May 25 2016 09:43 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
And while we're at it, they should all be closed.


I fully understand this desire, but I'm not sure it makes sense when after this election it's probable that most people won't belong to either party. Sounds like an excellent way to kill the party and make room for a new one though.

Well, I think they should form their own party then. I don't think it is such a strange expectation that Republicans ought to be the ones that choose who they are putting forward for the election, nor that Democrats ought to be the ones that choose who they are putting forward for the election. Then on the actual election day, every one can have their say on whether their picks are any good. But it seems odd (to me) that people not a part of the party wanting to pick a representative for the party that they do not belong. Maybe being able to join the party needs to be streamlined... on the other hand, I think the party needs to be able to protect from other party shenanigans: Party X in State Awesome has no hope of winning, so close to primaries Party X members register for Party Y just to stack votes on some random candidate just to throw a monkey wrench in Party Y's process.
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-25 02:29:08
May 25 2016 02:28 GMT
#77549
WASHINGTON (AP) — Speaker Paul Ryan is taking steps to bring greater order to the House floor after a Democrat-authored gay rights amendment caused chaos last week.

Ryan told House Republicans Tuesday that in the future, such amendments will have to be printed ahead of time. Current rules can allow amendments to be written and voted on in real time when spending bills are up for debate.

It's a procedural change that could allow the GOP majority to better manage politically problematic votes.

"You don't like to have surprises," said Rep. Phil Roe, R-Tenn., as he exited the closed-door GOP meeting where Ryan announced the planned change. "If you want to play tricks and games that's fine. If you're interested in doing legislation you ought to have thought it through."

Last week Democratic Rep. Sean Patrick Maloney offered a gay rights amendment that was about to pass, before seven Republicans changed their votes under pressure from House GOP leaders, and the amendment failed.

Outraged Democrats chanted "Shame! Shame!" as Republicans switched their votes. GOP lawmakers and aides said Maloney's amendment caught them by surprise and they had to take quick action against it in order to salvage the underlying legislation, a spending bill to pay for popular veterans and military construction projects.

But the result was a messy scene the GOP wants to avoid repeating. A similar scenario flaired last year on an amendment related to the Confederate flag, and Democrats had already made clear that they would be bringing Maloney's amendment back up on other spending bills.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23602 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-25 02:54:28
May 25 2016 02:34 GMT
#77550
On May 25 2016 11:15 Falling wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2016 09:43 GreenHorizons wrote:
And while we're at it, they should all be closed.


I fully understand this desire, but I'm not sure it makes sense when after this election it's probable that most people won't belong to either party. Sounds like an excellent way to kill the party and make room for a new one though.

Well, I think they should form their own party then. I don't think it is such a strange expectation that Republicans ought to be the ones that choose who they are putting forward for the election, nor that Democrats ought to be the ones that choose who they are putting forward for the election. Then on the actual election day, every one can have their say on whether their picks are any good. But it seems odd (to me) that people not a part of the party wanting to pick a representative for the party that they do not belong. Maybe being able to join the party needs to be streamlined... on the other hand, I think the party needs to be able to protect from other party shenanigans: Party X in State Awesome has no hope of winning, so close to primaries Party X members register for Party Y just to stack votes on some random candidate just to throw a monkey wrench in Party Y's process.


I'm just speaking from a purely practical point of view, there's the influence the two established parties have on the access alternatives have to the ballot and beyond to consider as well. Normally alternatives don't work because they have no room for growth really and they lose steam and get absorbed. This is the lowest in a looong time for party affiliation though. If more people are outside of the parties than within, closing the doors on the party is a death sentence. I think it would probably be better for America if both major parties died off though. But even if the parties "die", in reality most of the structures remain until specifically changed, so if that's not a top priority of the replacement parties we'll be back here in a handful of generations.

America hasn't liked it's party's choices less in any modern election, so there's going to be fireworks no matter who wins.

EDIT: This election is going to be so meta yet so grade school.

Today American Crossroads announced that it is endorsing Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz in Florida’s 23rd Congressional District Democratic primary. Crossroads’ President and CEO Steven Law had this to say about the organization’s rare decision to endorse in a contested primary:

“Congresswoman and DNC Chairwoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz has played a critical role over the past several years in the massive Republican gains we have achieved at the state level, in the U.S. House of Representatives, and in the U.S. Senate.

“Wasserman Schultz’s leadership has also been a catalyst for the emerging civil war in the Democratic Party this year, ensuring that their nominating process will drag on far longer than that of Republicans.

“Voters of the 23rd District of Florida should know – American Crossroads stands with Chairwoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz in her primary against ultra-liberal outsider Tim Canova, and they should too.”


www.americancrossroads.org
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15732 Posts
May 25 2016 03:11 GMT
#77551
who is americancrossroads and why should i care about them?
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
May 25 2016 03:12 GMT
#77552
On May 25 2016 12:11 Mohdoo wrote:
who is americancrossroads and why should i care about them?

Karl Rove.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23602 Posts
May 25 2016 03:13 GMT
#77553
On May 25 2016 12:11 Mohdoo wrote:
who is americancrossroads and why should i care about them?


Seriously?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15732 Posts
May 25 2016 03:33 GMT
#77554
On May 25 2016 12:12 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2016 12:11 Mohdoo wrote:
who is americancrossroads and why should i care about them?

Karl Rove.


Thanks!

On May 25 2016 12:13 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2016 12:11 Mohdoo wrote:
who is americancrossroads and why should i care about them?


Seriously?


Sorry lol. I clicked the Twitter link and it didn't really say anything meaningful <_<

Is this not just Karl Rove trying to throw a wrench in something democratic related? Isn't Karl Rove not a hugely popular guy lately?
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14094 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-25 03:55:22
May 25 2016 03:54 GMT
#77555
Karl Rove is the mastermind behind getting George bush elected twice to the white house. America loves a winner, republicans worship them.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6334 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-25 08:30:58
May 25 2016 08:30 GMT
#77556


Clinton doesn't want to do presidential debates on Fox? I'm not really sure what the procedure is for the presidential elections when debates are concerned.

edit: Can they do them before the conventions?
"No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot." - Mark Twain
Incognoto
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
France10239 Posts
May 25 2016 09:38 GMT
#77557
On May 20 2016 08:04 ticklishmusic wrote:
I found this pretty great blog thing

It pretty much encapsulates my position on economics

Source


Amazing, amazing read. Thank you
maru lover forever
pmh
Profile Joined March 2016
1399 Posts
May 25 2016 09:39 GMT
#77558
Trump shouldn't go to debate with sanders alone.
That would be a big mistake. It only exposes him against a candidate that has the aura of being fair. There is nothing crooked about sanders. He also has nothing to gain here,he can only loose and risk alienating the sanders supports who would potentially support him against clinton
This is the first major mistake I see from the trump campaign
Honestly, who in the trump campaign thought this was a good idea? Its a beginners mistake.
Very sad,trump was doing so well lately and the democrats where truly getting worried.

Smart from Clinton to not go,she should avoid a direct confrontation with trump at all costs.

Lets just hope it wont go to bad for trump but I have very bad feelings about this. It also shows that some people in his campaign don't fully understand it wich is a bit worrysome for the future,
Chewbacca.
Profile Joined January 2011
United States3634 Posts
May 25 2016 10:57 GMT
#77559
Am I missing something, or was that not just an opinion poll by some random journalist (?). I haven't seen anything saying there will actually be a debate between the two.
pmh
Profile Joined March 2016
1399 Posts
May 25 2016 12:15 GMT
#77560
Hmm seems you are right,guess I jumped the gun on this one then.
Lets just hope this wont become reality,trump should keep focusing on Clinton and just enjoy watching/stir up the fight between sanders and clinton
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