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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16763 Posts
"The school-to-prison pipeline is a problem around the country," "Nationwide, the treatment of children in criminal justice situations is generally up to each jurisdiction. " i think the USA could use something similar to the "Youth Criminal Justice Act" and the "Young Offenders Act" that Canada has. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
So no, we shouldn’t be telling kids they are wrong if they say there are a different gender than their sex. They are going to have enough problems in life without other people telling them they need to go into the mens room while dressed like a girl. | ||
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oBlade
United States5666 Posts
On May 14 2016 00:59 Sermokala wrote: Its not really going to change except for generations of assimilation into the general culture. We don't for sure what the "average museum" that doesn't go to conventions for museum speakers. The best we can do is tolerate them and not listen to them in politics for a few generations. But anyway its not a problem in america. Its a euro problem beacuse they believe in multiculturalism instead of assimilation like us proud, correct, world saving Americans. This sounds like sarcasm, but it's actually true. For 2-3 decades Europe has focused on respecting culture because of the naive assumption that you're doing people a favor by letting them establish pockets of the same culture they're leaving, importing all the same problems. So you get groups, in some cases a class, of people living in countries where they don't share or adopt the host's values, yet conveniently use the system when it suits their advantage (welfare for example). For a few reasons, the US fares better with assimilation. One is simple geography (the US is further away from Muslim countries people emigrate from). | ||
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Sent.
Poland9213 Posts
On May 14 2016 01:29 Naracs_Duc wrote: Technically all catholics *should* be more loyal to the pope than America. By definition. That's not how Catholicism works, you're repeating an old myth | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15712 Posts
On May 14 2016 01:46 Sent. wrote: That's not how Catholicism works, you're repeating an old myth Why would people be loyal to some made up country over their god? When you consider what these people think of god as, it makes no sense to be loyal to your country first. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On May 14 2016 01:25 SK.Testie wrote: Well, maybe they shouldn't identify as Muslim and should identify as American instead. Again, Muslim means they subscribe to a set of ideas. If they were just Americans, I highly doubt there'd be a problem. It's like being an open communist in America you will receive a lot of scorn. Why are you living in America and trying to not be an American? Do you dislike your host country? If so, perhaps you should move to a more fitting country. This one went a bit too far and advocates a sort of "if you don't like it then just leave" ideology. The real world doesn't work that way - countries are generally diverse enough and meant to accommodate a large set of often conflicting ideals. Otherwise we should go back to city-states where everyone is monotonic in culture and there's no huge conflict over who has what ideals. While I do sympathize to some degree with the rest of your point, this part is just wrong. On the other hand: If we can acknowledge that Islam the ideology is dangerous in a lot of ways, why is it a problem to acknowledge that those who closely follow that ideology, and those who have lived in a society that tells them that said ideology is above the law of the government, can be dangerous? Perhaps the "embargo on all Muslims" is borne not of an idea that ALL Muslims are necessarily bad, but of an idea that there is a systemic danger there. Immigrants bringing in a simple idea such as "the law of the Quran supersedes the law of the state" will certainly lead to individuals who tend towards very destructive habits, such as crime (that is against the law but not against religious text) and joining ISIS (fighting for Islam, while not living through the resulting war that led to their ancestors' emigration). Perhaps the same could be said for Christianity to some extent, but to be blunt one ideology is clearly more destructive than the other, both based on modern implementations and on historic practice (though neither is innocent and both are dangerous and approached with caution). When it comes to the options of "open the floodgates to all Muslims" vs. "put a full embargo on all Muslims" the latter option is better. Not all Muslims are bad, perhaps not most, but there are significantly more dangerous immigrants than many pro-immigrant parties (e.g. Germany and friends) would choose to acknowledge. In that light, if forced to choose between extremes rather than a moderate "filter them strongly and ensure that they are willing to respect the law and culture of the land" position, I don't blame them for choosing the embargo position. Trump's "there's something going on that we don't know about" is perhaps an expression of vague yet valid suspicion that the pro-immigrant parties are naively underestimating the threat of poorly vetted immigrants. On May 14 2016 01:46 Sent. wrote: That's not how Catholicism works, you're repeating an old myth I mean, I know a lot of Catholics who are like that, and in fact most of the most devout ones I know are loyal to the Catholic church before their nation of origin. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16763 Posts
On May 14 2016 01:43 Plansix wrote: People that are transgender have a 40% suicide rate and an insane rate for being attacked and harmed by people. Trans-panic is a real thing and a constant fear. If a kid says they are a different gender, its not like they are saying they want to be vegan to be different. So no, we shouldn’t be telling kids they are wrong if they say there are a different gender than their sex. They are going to have enough problems in life without other people telling them they need to go into the mens room while dressed like a girl. this is panic about panic. fear about fear. this escalation is quintessentially american. from 1900 to 2000 so many 5 year old boys run around in their mom's shoes. no one cares. now it could be an impending sign that he is transgender. now its time to put the 5 year old in a focus group... and when the boy starts smashing trucks together it could be he is repressing his true self because of societal pressures...and on and on it goes. its time to take a deep breath and remember the wise words of Franklin D. Roosevelt "we have nothing to fear.. .but fear itself.." or another way to take a step back and get some perspective ... we could take the comedic approach and remember that song from America World Police "every one has AIDS"... remember how we were all going to die of AIDS? Last i checked Magic Johnson is a billionaire. Basically, Americans need something new to panic about. Its a cultural thing that runs deeper than the individual issues they panic over. From Nuclear Annilhilation, to the impending AIDS epidemic, to terrorism, to trans-phobia. According to Americans the western world is constantly on verge of total collapse and complete obliteration. Now to put this criticism into its proper context: in spite of this flaw i've identified that americans have its still one of the top 20 best countries in the world. on the positive side of things americans are calculated risk takers and idea people. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
In response to first video: it's a video; I'd prefer further evidence. Yes, some muslims have bad and archaic views, especially if they are immigrants; as they mostly came from places with much harsher views on justice. (christian parts of africa are about as harsh, it's mostly just justice is harsh in africa). They claim they're not extremists in the video, why should I believe them? Many people claim to be normal that aren't. They claim many others think like them even if it's not so. Everyone in that video got there because they came to a meeting specifically, so it would tend to attract the like-minded. You can deport the immigrants, but citizens can't be deported, regardless of how odious their ideas are. In response to testie's response to plansix: I'm confident you're not a member of the ulema, nor are you a scholar of theology generally so I don't think you're remotely qualified to determine whether ISIS and saudi arabia are the most literal interpretations of Islam. I also doubt whoever you're getting your info from, at least until they have been thoroughly vetted, as you seem to be in a bit of an info tunnel. Your allegation of celebrations by muslims in America on 9/11 is unfounded, and has been thoroughly debunked. There are many many versions of Islam, some of which are thoroughly harmless, and most of which are no more harmful than religion in general. And of course, non-religions can also be very damaging, as a great many have died at the hands of non-religious ideologies. hmm, the discussion went a long way since I posted; I've caught up, but I'm not editing in more responses to anything; happy to continue the discussion though on any point if prodded, or if I am replied to. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15712 Posts
On May 14 2016 02:09 zlefin wrote: You can deport the immigrants, but citizens can't be deported, regardless of how odious their ideas are. Do you think this is a good thing or a bad thing? | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On May 14 2016 02:15 Mohdoo wrote: Do you think this is a good thing or a bad thing? I think it's a thing that simply is. In order to deport someone you have to deport them to somewhere else wherein they have a right to be. If they are not a citizen of any other country, then you simply can't deport them period. So good, I guess, since I agree with the UN conventions on trying to eliminate statelessness. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 14 2016 02:15 Mohdoo wrote: Do you think this is a good thing or a bad thing? Deporting citizens because the goverment/people for the ideas that are in their head is a violation of basic civil liberties. We have moved beyond being exiled for angering the king. | ||
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oBlade
United States5666 Posts
On May 14 2016 01:43 Plansix wrote: People that are transgender have a 40% suicide rate and an insane rate for being attacked and harmed by people. Trans-panic is a real thing and a constant fear. If a kid says they are a different gender, its not like they are saying they want to be vegan to be different. So no, we shouldn’t be telling kids they are wrong if they say there are a different gender than their sex. They are going to have enough problems in life without other people telling them they need to go into the mens room while dressed like a girl. How do you know that? How can you have such unconditional faith in someone who hasn't gone through puberty to be able to somehow know their entire body is the wrong sex, but you can't trust them to make decisions about what food they eat? On May 14 2016 01:56 JimmyJRaynor wrote: "every one has AIDS"... remember how we were all going to die of AIDS? Last i checked Magic Johnson is a billionaire. Just to air a note of skepticism, I'm unconvinced that contracting HIV is as lucrative a financial strategy as you make it seem. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On May 14 2016 02:15 Mohdoo wrote: Do you think this is a good thing or a bad thing? A good thing. The correct solution is not to allow those problem people to become citizens in the first place, and if someone gets through, to punish them the way citizens are punished for criminal activity. | ||
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TMagpie
265 Posts
On May 14 2016 01:32 Plansix wrote: Technically I am supposed to do no work on Sunday, but I need to mow the lawn and do laundry. If we want to get real deep in there, one could argue I can’t even play video games with the music on. Or turn on lights, walk X feet without sitting for Y minutes, cut hair, eat _____, etc... Still, technical rules and practical rules have different categories for a reason. For example, you're supposed to care about God more than your children and partners. And I for sure know that most Americans care more about their children/partners than they are to America. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 14 2016 02:20 oBlade wrote: How do you know that? How can you have such unconditional faith in someone who hasn't gone through puberty to be able to somehow know their entire body is the wrong sex, but you can't trust them to make decisions about what food they eat? You don't know for sure, but it also doesn't come out of no place. If you read about transgender kids, the decisions happen over time and nothing that is done is permanent. But the "you might grow out of it" is the wrong response to have. | ||
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SK.Testie
Canada11084 Posts
In response to first video: it's a video; I'd prefer further evidence. Yes, some muslims have bad and archaic views, especially if they are immigrants; as they mostly came from places with much harsher views on justice. (christian parts of africa are about as harsh, it's mostly just justice is harsh in africa). They claim they're not extremists in the video, why should I believe them? Many people claim to be normal that aren't. They claim many others think like them even if it's not so. Everyone in that video got there because they came to a meeting specifically, so it would tend to attract the like-minded. With this you can use simple math to a degree. How many men are in that room. How many Muslims are even in Norway? Are all people who share those beliefs under that roof? How often have I seen this before? etc. Question upon question upon question leads you to believe that a sizeable percentage of people feel that way. Especially when you go within Islamic websites and then translate things like their own polls / views / and even read from their news. Asking for more and more evidence is great, but I feel that the evidence is most definitely in on this. That it's enough of a threat to western values that it should no longer be welcomed with open arms. And instead very, very thoroughly vetted. You can deport the immigrants, but citizens can't be deported, regardless of how odious their ideas are. True. But I'm most definitely for arguing against deporting those whom are not yet citizens who are clearly here for trouble. And there's so, so many instances of it that are blatant and in the news. Of all the migrants entering Europe right now, I think none should be given citizenship for at least a decade. Because most were promised to be there 'temporarily' in the beginning. That's what the politicians and media sold it as. Temporary. The left loves to say, "see it's so cold and they're mistreated so badly they want to go back home!" but that's hundreds.. when thousands and millions more are coming. And the term migrants was correct for most instances. It was meant for the people of Syria. Now it's north africa, afghanistan, pakistan, and everywhere. The egalitarian fantasy completely died the night of cologne. In response to testie's response to plansix: I'm confident you're not a member of the ulema, nor are you a scholar of theology generally so I don't think you're remotely qualified to determine whether ISIS and saudi arabia are the most literal interpretations of Islam. I also doubt whoever you're getting your info from, at least until they have been thoroughly vetted, as you seem to be in a bit of an info tunnel. Your allegation of celebrations by muslims in America on 9/11 is unfounded, and has been thoroughly debunked. There are many many versions of Islam, some of which are thoroughly harmless, and most of which are no more harmful than religion in general. And of course, non-religions can also be very damaging, as a great many have died at the hands of non-religious ideologies. Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Salmon Rushdie, and many more. I've been very up to date on news from multiple sources for a long time. When I was 16-18ish I actually believed Reza Aslan and read a couple books about Osama Bin Laden and I had a more sympathetic view at that time as I listened to Osama's side of things. I've watched countless debates on the subject It's only more recently that I've accepted conservative sources as well to get a broader perspective on where they are coming from. To do multi-quotes to make things neater just type quote and /quote in brackets before and after each individual paragraph or point you want to address. | ||
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SolaR-
United States2685 Posts
On May 14 2016 00:51 Plansix wrote: Religion is as much a threat as anything else. Nationalism is one of the root cultural causes for world war 1. There were numerous conflicts throughout history that have been caused by everything but religion. Xenophobia and the desire to “improve” medical science has resulted in some horrific acts. There is no limit to the number of ways humans have justified terrible actions. Claiming that Religion more dangerous than any other frame of thought or idea just shows a lack of imagination. It's funny that you compare religion to nationalism. Nationalism gets a ton of criticism and debate among everyone. Yet, Islam hides under the blanket of religion which shelters it from any criticism. Nazi's were nationalists and hated for very obvious reasons. No one says oh well he is a moderate nazi he isn't one of the crazy ones!!! Like nationalism, religion is ultimately a choice and should be criticised. Religion is not the same as your gender, sexuality or your race. Those qualties cannot be chosen.Some how liberals lump religion with all those other qualities. Questioning and debunking religious taboos and traditions is a large part of why we become more modern and civilized. Overall, islam has a lot of catching up to do, and should not be immune from criticism. That is how we grow and evolve as people and a civilization. Islam has serious ethical issues. And lets be clear , this is systemic across the entire religion, not just extremists. I also must point that is so ironic that liberals jump to Islam's defense when it stands against everything that they stand for. I dont have much time to go more on my opinions, but i stand in defense of testie. I agree with most of what he has written and i understand where he is coming from. You don't bother trying to understand where he is coming from and you immediately lump him with other viewpoints that you are against. So, you end up arguing against that generic viewpoint instead of what he is actually presenting. I think this driven from over sensitivity and it is becoming a huge issue within our generation. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
Dawkins aint bad though you really have to read with the fact he's a militant atheist in mind (his science is good, his other crap is crap), Harris a hack and Rushdie isn't what he used to be. I kind of knew Rushdie b/c he was a visiting professor and gave my commencement speech which was a pretty big disappointment. | ||
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oBlade
United States5666 Posts
On May 14 2016 02:30 Plansix wrote: Sam Harris and Dawkins. Low grade intellect and academics in the business of selling books and being famous online. Wouldn't want authors selling books or anything, and besides, what are we supposed to do with them, read? Am I right? | ||
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