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On May 05 2016 06:31 oneofthem wrote:
it would really help things if bernie has some sort of legit policy. what kind of platform does he really want to negotiate given his radically antagonistic view of reality?
the reality is that the sensible part of his platform is already in hillary's. what's he gonna want? it's not hillary the republican refusing to negotiate with bernie. a lot of his stuff would seriously harm poor americans and use up valuable resources for unproductive spending.
A big push for campaign finance reform? Better regulation of wall street? More funding for the branches of the FBI that investigate fraud in the large banks?
I get that you don't like Bernie, but seriously, there are plenty of things he could ask for that are totally reasonable parts of the DNC's platform. Don't act otherwise just because you are drinking the hateraid.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
all of those are in hillary's platform with actual proposals. so that's not specific enough. for an area already in her platform, you have to propose actual changes.
just an example, finance regulation. what does bernie want? break up the big banks? that's not gonna happen not because hillary's a republican but because it'd be bad policy and also not feasible.
campaign financing. http://www.npr.org/2016/02/06/465781632/fact-check-clinton-and-sanders-on-campaign-finance
finance reform you can find yourself.
the fbi resources thing, on her page
Prosecuting individuals when they break the law. Hillary would extend the statute of limitations for prosecuting major financial frauds, enhance whistleblower rewards, and provide the Department of Justice and the Securities and Exchange Commission more resources to prosecute wrongdoing.
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On May 05 2016 06:36 oneofthem wrote:
all of those are in hillary's platform with actual proposals. so that's not specific enough. for an area already in her platform, you have to propose actual changes.
"Your platforms are now my platforms."
~Hillary Clinton
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Yes, because those broad strokes as how it will be implemented and the priority on the platform are totally fleshed out. Even if they want similar things, he may have ways he would like to see them implemented. Or have them be a greater focus.
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On May 05 2016 06:41 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2016 06:36 oneofthem wrote:
all of those are in hillary's platform with actual proposals. so that's not specific enough. for an area already in her platform, you have to propose actual changes. "Your platforms are now my platforms." ~Hillary Clinton
It wasn't "his" platforms, he just tacked bigger numbers on the same ones.
Raise minimum wage? DNC already working on that.
Campaign Finance Regulation? DNC already working on that.
What exactly is Bernie wanting that the DNC wasn't already working on? Apart from less gun regulations.
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On May 05 2016 06:44 Naracs_Duc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2016 06:41 Jormundr wrote:On May 05 2016 06:36 oneofthem wrote:
all of those are in hillary's platform with actual proposals. so that's not specific enough. for an area already in her platform, you have to propose actual changes. "Your platforms are now my platforms." ~Hillary Clinton It wasn't "his" platforms, he just tacked bigger numbers on the same ones. Raise minimum wage? DNC already working on that. Campaign Finance Regulation? DNC already working on that. What exactly is Bernie wanting that the DNC wasn't already working on? Apart from less gun regulations.
I think the issue is that a lot of people just don't actually understand, on a deep level, how government works. They see things not happen and assume there is some corrupt lobbyist preventing it. To Bernistas, $15/hr is long overdue. After all, isn't minimum wage way higher than that in Norway? Checkmate. That is a totally valid argument. Lobbyists prevent it, but Norway doesn't have lobbyists. Clinton is a lobbyist and Bernie is a revolutionary. I think that's the gist of their thought process.
That being said, still voting for Bernie in the primary. Actually sending my ballot in today (Thanks Oregon!). I want to make it as abundantly clear that I have zero comfort with money in politics. I think a vote for Bernie sends that message.
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On May 05 2016 06:43 Plansix wrote:
Yes, because those broad strokes as how it will be implemented and the priority on the platform are totally fleshed out. Even if they want similar things, he may have ways he would like to see them implemented. Or have them be a greater focus.
But how do you imagine the conversation will sound like?
"I want stricter campaign finance reform"
"Done"
"What your'e doing is not enough!"
"What are your specifics then?"
"More broad strokes"
"Agreed, we want campaign finance too, so unless you have a detailed plan I don't see how this is an issue"
"Campaign finance!"
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On May 05 2016 06:43 Plansix wrote:
Yes, because those broad strokes as how it will be implemented and the priority on the platform are totally fleshed out. Even if they want similar things, he may have ways he would like to see them implemented. Or have them be a greater focus.
not talking about his current lack of a plan, but what is he going to negotiate on?
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The real conversation is and always has been about Corruption and Money in Politics. Bernie can't argue with the DNC/Hillary on the policy details. Bernie's pitch will be to shame the DNC into handing back donations from undesirable donors that the Bernie base has been trained to hate. For instance, Bernie might try to convince the DNC to return all individual donations from people employed in Berner hated industries (e.g., finance, energy, or general richness).
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On May 05 2016 06:50 Naracs_Duc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2016 06:43 Plansix wrote:
Yes, because those broad strokes as how it will be implemented and the priority on the platform are totally fleshed out. Even if they want similar things, he may have ways he would like to see them implemented. Or have them be a greater focus. But how do you imagine the conversation will sound like? "I want stricter campaign finance reform" "Done" "What your'e doing is not enough!" "What are your specifics then?" "More broad strokes" "Agreed, we want campaign finance too, so unless you have a detailed plan I don't see how this is an issue" "Campaign finance!"
Yes, that is exactly how high level political negotiations work. It would be exactly like that.
On May 05 2016 06:54 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
The real conversation is and always has been about Corruption and Money in Politics. Bernie can't argue with the DNC/Hillary on the policy details. Bernie's pitch will be to shame the DNC into handing back donations from undesirable donors that the Bernie base has been trained to hate. For instance, Bernie might try to convince the DNC to return all individual donations from people employed in Berner hated industries (e.g., finance, energy, or general richness).
This too. Returning funds from companies that he doesn't think should be influencing the DNC. Like naivant, I mean, Sallie Mae.
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On May 05 2016 06:34 CannonsNCarriers wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2016 06:31 oneofthem wrote:
it would really help things if bernie has some sort of legit policy. what kind of platform does he really want to negotiate given his radically antagonistic view of reality?
the reality is that the sensible part of his platform is already in hillary's. what's he gonna want? it's not hillary the republican refusing to negotiate with bernie. a lot of his stuff would seriously harm poor americans and use up valuable resources for unproductive spending. Bernie could negotiate an end to money in Democratic-party-only politics. Right after he gets Hillary to discharge his campaign debt.
That's what Obama did and Clinton went back on the getting money out of politics part. No reason for Sanders to trust Hillary would actually keep her word this time.
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On May 05 2016 07:05 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2016 06:34 CannonsNCarriers wrote:On May 05 2016 06:31 oneofthem wrote:
it would really help things if bernie has some sort of legit policy. what kind of platform does he really want to negotiate given his radically antagonistic view of reality?
the reality is that the sensible part of his platform is already in hillary's. what's he gonna want? it's not hillary the republican refusing to negotiate with bernie. a lot of his stuff would seriously harm poor americans and use up valuable resources for unproductive spending. Bernie could negotiate an end to money in Democratic-party-only politics. Right after he gets Hillary to discharge his campaign debt. That's what Obama did and Clinton went back on the getting money out of politics part. No reason to for Sanders to trust Hillary would actually keep her word this time.
Pretty sure that was before citizens united blew up and ruined any plan of that for the DNC. GH, you do understand that if they don't accept the funds, they will be orders of magnitude behind the RNC when it comes to budget? By trying to remove the money from the DNC, they could cripple their ability to win seats nation wide, which means the money stays.
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On May 05 2016 07:08 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2016 07:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 05 2016 06:34 CannonsNCarriers wrote:On May 05 2016 06:31 oneofthem wrote:
it would really help things if bernie has some sort of legit policy. what kind of platform does he really want to negotiate given his radically antagonistic view of reality?
the reality is that the sensible part of his platform is already in hillary's. what's he gonna want? it's not hillary the republican refusing to negotiate with bernie. a lot of his stuff would seriously harm poor americans and use up valuable resources for unproductive spending. Bernie could negotiate an end to money in Democratic-party-only politics. Right after he gets Hillary to discharge his campaign debt. That's what Obama did and Clinton went back on the getting money out of politics part. No reason to for Sanders to trust Hillary would actually keep her word this time. Pretty sure that was before citizens united blew up and ruined any plan of that for the DNC. GH, you do understand that if they don't accept the funds, they will be orders of magnitude behind the RNC when it comes to budget? By trying to remove the money from the DNC, they could cripple their ability to win seats nation wide, which means the money stays.
But Bernie kept up! will be his reply.
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On May 05 2016 06:34 CannonsNCarriers wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2016 06:31 oneofthem wrote:
it would really help things if bernie has some sort of legit policy. what kind of platform does he really want to negotiate given his radically antagonistic view of reality?
the reality is that the sensible part of his platform is already in hillary's. what's he gonna want? it's not hillary the republican refusing to negotiate with bernie. a lot of his stuff would seriously harm poor americans and use up valuable resources for unproductive spending. Bernie could negotiate an end to money in Democratic-party-only politics. Right after he gets Hillary to discharge his campaign debt.
Lolo loll where do you get bernie had campaign debt? He's the one that has all that juicy early donation data the dnc wants to put in the Obama era analytics engine from 2008.
There were rumors back on 2008 that Clinton got Obama's campaign to pay off her campaign debt to get her and bill to come out for Obama post election but I haven't heard anything about bernie money problems.
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On May 05 2016 06:55 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2016 06:50 Naracs_Duc wrote:On May 05 2016 06:43 Plansix wrote:
Yes, because those broad strokes as how it will be implemented and the priority on the platform are totally fleshed out. Even if they want similar things, he may have ways he would like to see them implemented. Or have them be a greater focus. But how do you imagine the conversation will sound like? "I want stricter campaign finance reform" "Done" "What your'e doing is not enough!" "What are your specifics then?" "More broad strokes" "Agreed, we want campaign finance too, so unless you have a detailed plan I don't see how this is an issue" "Campaign finance!" Yes, that is exactly how high level political negotiations work. It would be exactly like that. Show nested quote +On May 05 2016 06:54 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
The real conversation is and always has been about Corruption and Money in Politics. Bernie can't argue with the DNC/Hillary on the policy details. Bernie's pitch will be to shame the DNC into handing back donations from undesirable donors that the Bernie base has been trained to hate. For instance, Bernie might try to convince the DNC to return all individual donations from people employed in Berner hated industries (e.g., finance, energy, or general richness). This too. Returning funds from companies that he doesn't think should be influencing the DNC. Like naivant, I mean, Sallie Mae.
Actual political conversations will be more akin to this:
We have X supporters for $12 minimum wage, we just need to ensure wins in swing states A, B, and C and we have it locked--how many senators and congressmen do you have for $15? What about your plans to outspend the RNC races we have lost the past 8 years--where are you planning to get the money for that so you can get the support? What plan do you actually have when you can't just sell your vote to random amendments??
OR
Bernie, we've lose the last two midterm elections in the biggest losses in recent history--what's your plan to get enough funding to fight the RNC in the swing states and the south? No, we can't cut our main donors right now, we need a win. Win first, social change later. I know you got the most individual donors Bernie, and you still are down almost 3 million votes--and thats against Democrats. Your strategy was also a complete failure in the states we need to flip so do you have a plan to allow us to take back the house and senate? I know, revolution, individual contributors, I get it--but if you couldn't convince liberals to vote for you how do you expect southern democrats to do it using that strategy?
Bernie literally has nothing to offer, nor has he anything to argue. All he is doing is trying to hurt the DNC because he's a whiny bitch who is upset that he's losing.
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On May 05 2016 07:13 Naracs_Duc wrote:I know, revolution, individual contributors, I get it--but if you couldn't convince liberals to vote for you how do you expect southern democrats to do it using that strategy?
If you said this to GH, what do you think his response would be? I can't tell if Bernie is legitimately the same or if it is more so an act to continue inspiring people like GH. Either way, I think it is entirely possible Bernie would say the whole election was stolen by voter suppression and that corporate interests compelled the media to silence his majority.
Edit:
As I understand it, the gist of GH's argument is that corporate interests, from the beginning, used the media to silence and suppress Bernie, giving him a massive disadvantage from the beginning. The fact that he is going to end up only like 150-200 delegates below Clinton is completely insane. If the DNC wasn't 100% in Clinton's pocket, and he had a "fair shot", it's entirely likely he would have swept the floor with Clinton with an early advantage and people saying "It's Obama all over again". If this was a boxing match, Sanders was only allowed to use 1 hand. Still gave Clinton a bloody nose. Got knocked out eventually, but imagine if he had both hands. The whole election is essentially seen as invalid. Then look at polls that show Bernie doing better against Trump, and you ask yourself, is there any reason for Clinton instead of Bernie? If the primary was a sham and he leads Trump, who gives a shit about Clinton? What is her actual value?
I can see Bernie making a similar argument.
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Pretty sure Bernie is gonna finish with campaign debt. He's got a ton of illegal donations which he needs to return, and I doubt he cut his burn rate to match his reduced fundraising
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On May 05 2016 07:29 ticklishmusic wrote:
Pretty sure Bernie is gonna finish with campaign debt. He's got a ton of illegal donations which he needs to return, and I doubt he cut his burn rate to match his reduced fundraising
This is NOT the type of bern you want to feel...
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At best, Bernie is the Democrats' version of Barry Goldwater. He's arrived ahead of his time, before there are enough people who are ready to accept his message.
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Ilegal donations he has to return? I remember some people donated to Obama back in 2008 as Osama bin ladin and they acepted it and never paid it back why would bernie have to?
And I'm pretty sure logically his costs would go down as he has less states to contest.
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EPT
