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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14220 Posts
April 20 2016 02:49 GMT
#72781
On April 20 2016 11:48 Nyxisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 20 2016 11:45 Sermokala wrote:
you don't care for about half the parties base really not likeing the presumptive nominee?


That's also the case for the Republican party, I really don't see how the alienation in the Democratic party is bigger than the respective Republican situation.

I think you underestimate the republican ability to have a "come to jesus" moment.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
April 20 2016 02:50 GMT
#72782
She definitely reached out in her speech today fwiw

Most of Sanders supporters are pretty happy with Clinton and v/v. I hope she reaches out to the others and she probably will, but at some point they have to meet her half way.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-20 02:56:06
April 20 2016 02:50 GMT
#72783
Jeff Weaver, from the Sanders campaign, just admitted again (but even more clearly than before) on MSNBC that the Sanders campaign will try to win at the convention thanks to superdelegates even if Sanders is behind Hillary both in the popular vote and in the number of pledged delegates. Let that sink in. He supports the idea of superdelegates giving Sanders the nomination even if he loses the popular vote and has less pledged delegates than Hillary. Is anyone here going to defend that position?

I think there's no chance of that actually happening since Sanders will concede and work to support her, but it really shows the hypocrisy of the people working under him.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-20 02:52:12
April 20 2016 02:51 GMT
#72784
On April 20 2016 11:49 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 20 2016 11:48 Nyxisto wrote:
On April 20 2016 11:45 Sermokala wrote:
you don't care for about half the parties base really not likeing the presumptive nominee?


That's also the case for the Republican party, I really don't see how the alienation in the Democratic party is bigger than the respective Republican situation.

I think you underestimate the republican ability to have a "come to jesus" moment.


I trust the female vote. I'll refuse to believe that the demographics in the USA favor Trump/Cruz over Hillary, no matter how much intra-party loyalty/hate there is. I think the absolute numbers of Dem / Republican voters in NY are a good indicator.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14220 Posts
April 20 2016 02:51 GMT
#72785
I wonder if theres some heat between sanders and hillary.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
April 20 2016 02:52 GMT
#72786
On April 20 2016 11:45 Adreme wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 20 2016 11:39 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
On April 20 2016 11:28 Adreme wrote:
On April 20 2016 11:25 GreenHorizons wrote:
On April 20 2016 11:18 ticklishmusic wrote:
Bernie to speak in 30

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/story/news/2016/04/19/watch-bernie-sanders-holds-news-conference-945-pm-vermont/83260964/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter



Bernie confirms he's not dropping out and still plans to win. Expresses serious concerns about the voting in New York and that the Comptroller also spoke about a rash of "irregularities".

Concerns about ~30% of registered voters being excluded from today's voting. Hillary not so concerned about them not being able to participate.



Her campaign was talking about them all day but no matter how it turned out it did not matter. Even if it was enough to completely erase this deficit (which is unlikely but lets say somehow it draws him to a tie or even a 2 point win) then the deficit in pledged delagates is still far to big at this point in the election for him to come back on with proportional allocation especially with the coming states favoring her greatly.

I agree its an issue and both sides spent all day complaining about it but at the end of the day its good this was discovered in an already decided primary instead of in a contested general election.


That's because she needs to them to vote her or Cruz/Trump waltz right into the Oval office. Among Sander supporters her numbers are dismal.


I believe in 2008 Obama was doing far worse among Hilary's voters around this time to the point where there was a serious concern that Hilary voters going for McCain could be what loses democrats an unlosable election.

As for the general I honestly do not think she is as much worried about Trump or Cruz winning (there numbers are so dismal i wouldnt even worry about it) but she is worried about Bernie supporters staying home and not voting thus not giving her the numbers in congress she needs to do things. At her core she is a pragmatist and this is the more logical concern so its probably why she was talking about having plans to implement versions of Bernies ideas in her speech to try and make herself more acceptable in a general.


They are when third parties are starting to rise. The Green Party just qualified for 100k in public funds. Gary Johnson is a perfect counter to Cruz or Trump.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
ragz_gt
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
9172 Posts
April 20 2016 02:53 GMT
#72787
On April 20 2016 11:50 ticklishmusic wrote:
She definitely reached out in her speech today fwiw

Most of Sanders supporters are pretty happy with Clinton and v/v. I hope she reaches out to the others and she probably will, but at some point they have to meet her half way.


I feels that a lot of Sender's support who says would not vote for Clinton never voted and would not without Sender in the first place (same with Trump supporters). So it's less of a support lost than support never there.
I'm not an otaku, I'm a specialist.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24470 Posts
April 20 2016 02:58 GMT
#72788
On April 20 2016 11:50 kwizach wrote:
Jeff Weaver, from the Sanders campaign, just admitted again (but even more clearly than before) on MSNBC that the Sanders campaign will try to win at the convention thanks to superdelegates even if Sanders is behind Hillary both in the popular vote and in the number of pledged delegates. Let that sink in. He supports the idea of superdelegates giving Sanders the nomination even if he loses the popular vote and has less pledged delegates than Hillary. Is anyone here going to defend that position?

I think there's no chance of that actually happening since Sanders will concede and work to support her, but it really shows the hypocrisy of the people working under him.


It's already been established the winner will be determined by super delegates barring something huge. There's no scandal in acknowledging that.

Not sure if anyone did the math on if super delegates followed their constituencies how that would add up?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-20 02:59:58
April 20 2016 02:58 GMT
#72789
the concern with the sandernistas is forward looking, not just this election. the new democrat is supposed to be about building trust in government and good governance. instead there is a bunch of conspiracy nuts running around telling people everyone is corrupt. it's precisely the wrong thing to happen in a time of weakness.

obama is once again the most influential piece and he more than bumbling sanders would do the work of pulling these tards back into the fold.

btw im pleased to report that hillary crushed bernie in my district, CD 10.
http://www.benchmarkpolitics.com/
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-20 03:03:56
April 20 2016 03:03 GMT
#72790
On April 20 2016 11:58 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 20 2016 11:50 kwizach wrote:
Jeff Weaver, from the Sanders campaign, just admitted again (but even more clearly than before) on MSNBC that the Sanders campaign will try to win at the convention thanks to superdelegates even if Sanders is behind Hillary both in the popular vote and in the number of pledged delegates. Let that sink in. He supports the idea of superdelegates giving Sanders the nomination even if he loses the popular vote and has less pledged delegates than Hillary. Is anyone here going to defend that position?

I think there's no chance of that actually happening since Sanders will concede and work to support her, but it really shows the hypocrisy of the people working under him.


It's already been established the winner will be determined by super delegates barring something huge. There's no scandal in acknowledging that.

Not sure if anyone did the math on if super delegates followed their constituencies how that would add up?

No, that is not what Weaver was saying here. Again, Weaver explicitly said that superdelegates should give Sanders the nomination even if he has LESS pledged delegates than Hillary and even if he has LOST the popular vote to Hillary. That is extremely different from simply saying that neither candidate is likely to reach the 2,384 delegate vote threshold through pledged delegates alone.

Don't try to obfuscate on this issue. Do you support superdelegates overturning the votes of the people who participated in the Democratic primary, and the results both with regards to the popular vote total and to the respective pledged delegates numbers? Jeff Weaver does.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
April 20 2016 03:03 GMT
#72791
There's nothing quite like the freedom to sell your house to pay for part of your medical bill.
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-20 03:06:30
April 20 2016 03:05 GMT
#72792
On April 20 2016 11:53 ragz_gt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 20 2016 11:50 ticklishmusic wrote:
She definitely reached out in her speech today fwiw

Most of Sanders supporters are pretty happy with Clinton and v/v. I hope she reaches out to the others and she probably will, but at some point they have to meet her half way.


I feels that a lot of Sender's support who says would not vote for Clinton never voted and would not without Sender in the first place (same with Trump supporters). So it's less of a support lost than support never there.


Yeah that's basically it. The independent vote =/= moderate, a good chunk is people so far left, right or have some positions that are just too far out that they don't identify with any party.

Weaver can say what he wants. It's just spin. What matters is the campaign he's been running.

I do wonder if anything will change after Bernie gets a day or two of R&R back home.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24470 Posts
April 20 2016 03:06 GMT
#72793
On April 20 2016 12:03 kwizach wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 20 2016 11:58 GreenHorizons wrote:
On April 20 2016 11:50 kwizach wrote:
Jeff Weaver, from the Sanders campaign, just admitted again (but even more clearly than before) on MSNBC that the Sanders campaign will try to win at the convention thanks to superdelegates even if Sanders is behind Hillary both in the popular vote and in the number of pledged delegates. Let that sink in. He supports the idea of superdelegates giving Sanders the nomination even if he loses the popular vote and has less pledged delegates than Hillary. Is anyone here going to defend that position?

I think there's no chance of that actually happening since Sanders will concede and work to support her, but it really shows the hypocrisy of the people working under him.


It's already been established the winner will be determined by super delegates barring something huge. There's no scandal in acknowledging that.

Not sure if anyone did the math on if super delegates followed their constituencies how that would add up?

No, that is not what Weaver was saying here. Again, Weaver explicitly said that superdelegates should give Sanders the nomination even if he has LESS pledged delegates than Hillary and even if he has LOST the popular vote to Hillary. That is extremely different from simply saying that neither candidate is likely to reach the 2,384 delegate vote threshold through pledged delegates alone.

Don't try to obfuscate on this issue. Do you support superdelegates overturning the votes of the people who participated in the Democratic primary, and the results both with regards to the popular vote total and to the respective pledged delegates numbers? Jeff Weaver does.


Considering Hillary's national numbers have been falling I could see myself supporting that. If Hillary is losing 60-40 nationally during California, I think that would be 1 example of why I would support doing such.

I can think of other scenarios. Not sure if your complaint is about an inconsistency for Bernie's campaign or that you don't like the idea?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-20 03:11:12
April 20 2016 03:09 GMT
#72794
On April 20 2016 11:58 oneofthem wrote:
the concern with the sandernistas is forward looking, not just this election. the new democrat is supposed to be about building trust in government and good governance. instead there is a bunch of conspiracy nuts running around telling people everyone is corrupt. it's precisely the wrong thing to happen in a time of weakness.

obama is once again the most influential piece and he more than bumbling sanders would do the work of pulling these tards back into the fold.

btw im pleased to report that hillary crushed bernie in my district, CD 10.
http://www.benchmarkpolitics.com/

The conspiracy nuts existed before Sanders and will continue to exist after, and they're hardly the ones who build distrust in government. This theme is on both sides. The left wing nuts have these conspiracies, the right wing nuts have different conspiracies and they spout "from my cold dead hands" referring to the time they'll eventually open fire on government employees in the name of freedom.

Fucking distrust in government is a large chunk of Trump's platform, it's just spun differently. Thing is, you can blame Trump directly for that rhetoric, whereas the conspiracy rhetoric is one that only shitters adopt. Can't exactly control what those people will do or say.
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
CobaltBlu
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States919 Posts
April 20 2016 03:11 GMT
#72795
Sanders continued insinuations that Clinton is corrupt and that there is some conspiracy has really eroded the positive view I had of him.
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-20 03:13:46
April 20 2016 03:11 GMT
#72796
The Sanders campaign has relentlessly pushed the narrative that Clinton can't achieve a majority of delegates, so he should stay in, while simultaneously pushing the narrative that superdelegates are fundamentally undemocratic (while they're the only thing keeping her from achieving a majority).

This recent comment is just further confirmation of the inherent silliness and contradiction in pushing both of those narratives at once. It would be nice if they would just say they were working with what the system, similar to how Hillary discussion campaign finance, but unfortunately they won't ever do that.
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-20 03:13:46
April 20 2016 03:12 GMT
#72797
On April 20 2016 12:06 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 20 2016 12:03 kwizach wrote:
On April 20 2016 11:58 GreenHorizons wrote:
On April 20 2016 11:50 kwizach wrote:
Jeff Weaver, from the Sanders campaign, just admitted again (but even more clearly than before) on MSNBC that the Sanders campaign will try to win at the convention thanks to superdelegates even if Sanders is behind Hillary both in the popular vote and in the number of pledged delegates. Let that sink in. He supports the idea of superdelegates giving Sanders the nomination even if he loses the popular vote and has less pledged delegates than Hillary. Is anyone here going to defend that position?

I think there's no chance of that actually happening since Sanders will concede and work to support her, but it really shows the hypocrisy of the people working under him.


It's already been established the winner will be determined by super delegates barring something huge. There's no scandal in acknowledging that.

Not sure if anyone did the math on if super delegates followed their constituencies how that would add up?

No, that is not what Weaver was saying here. Again, Weaver explicitly said that superdelegates should give Sanders the nomination even if he has LESS pledged delegates than Hillary and even if he has LOST the popular vote to Hillary. That is extremely different from simply saying that neither candidate is likely to reach the 2,384 delegate vote threshold through pledged delegates alone.

Don't try to obfuscate on this issue. Do you support superdelegates overturning the votes of the people who participated in the Democratic primary, and the results both with regards to the popular vote total and to the respective pledged delegates numbers? Jeff Weaver does.


Considering Hillary's national numbers have been falling I could see myself supporting that. If Hillary is losing 60-40 nationally during California, I think that would be 1 example of why I would support doing such.

I can think of other scenarios. Not sure if your complaint is about an inconsistency for Bernie's campaign or that you don't like the idea?

So let's get this clear. The primary season is over. All states have voted. We've reached the convention, and the situation is as follows:

Hillary has won the popular vote.
Hillary has won the most number of pledged delegates.

Jeff Weaver says - and apparently you agree with him - that he supports Sanders getting the nomination anyway, through the support of superdelegates.

I consider that contemptible, both because of the blatant disregard for the votes that were cast and because of the glaring hypocrisy coming from a campaign which initially decried the weight given to superdelegates. It is
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
April 20 2016 03:13 GMT
#72798
On April 20 2016 12:09 Djzapz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 20 2016 11:58 oneofthem wrote:
the concern with the sandernistas is forward looking, not just this election. the new democrat is supposed to be about building trust in government and good governance. instead there is a bunch of conspiracy nuts running around telling people everyone is corrupt. it's precisely the wrong thing to happen in a time of weakness.

obama is once again the most influential piece and he more than bumbling sanders would do the work of pulling these tards back into the fold.

btw im pleased to report that hillary crushed bernie in my district, CD 10.
http://www.benchmarkpolitics.com/

The conspiracy nuts existed before Sanders and will continue to exist after, and they're hardly the ones who build distrust in government. This theme is on both sides. The left wing nuts have these conspiracies, the right wing nuts have different conspiracies and they spout "from my cold dead hands" referring to the time they'll eventually open fire on government employees in the name of freedom.

Fucking distrust in government is a large chunk of Trump's platform, it's just spun differently. Thing is, you can blame Trump directly for that rhetoric, whereas the conspiracy rhetoric is one that only shitters adopt. Can't exactly control what those people will do or say.

of course i can blame trump or sanders for obfuscating the discourse to their simple 'government is corrupt, we need revolution' stuff. two of the dimmest rocks leading the revolution is not going to get you good things.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
April 20 2016 03:14 GMT
#72799
On April 20 2016 12:11 CobaltBlu wrote:
Sanders continued insinuations that Clinton is corrupt and that there is some conspiracy has really eroded the positive view I had of him.

Politicians collude in the US, it's absolutely insane how common it is for politicians to be in clear conflicts of interests by fundraising like crazy and then handing government contracts to people who've donated over people who haven't. Around here, we had schemes like that and it was perfectly normal until we realized that maybe this leads to government not getting the best prices on their contracts.

"Insinuating" that Clinton is corrupt has nothing to do with conspiracies. High level US politicians do some bullshit fiddling behind closed doors.
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-20 03:23:49
April 20 2016 03:17 GMT
#72800
On April 20 2016 12:13 oneofthem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 20 2016 12:09 Djzapz wrote:
On April 20 2016 11:58 oneofthem wrote:
the concern with the sandernistas is forward looking, not just this election. the new democrat is supposed to be about building trust in government and good governance. instead there is a bunch of conspiracy nuts running around telling people everyone is corrupt. it's precisely the wrong thing to happen in a time of weakness.

obama is once again the most influential piece and he more than bumbling sanders would do the work of pulling these tards back into the fold.

btw im pleased to report that hillary crushed bernie in my district, CD 10.
http://www.benchmarkpolitics.com/

The conspiracy nuts existed before Sanders and will continue to exist after, and they're hardly the ones who build distrust in government. This theme is on both sides. The left wing nuts have these conspiracies, the right wing nuts have different conspiracies and they spout "from my cold dead hands" referring to the time they'll eventually open fire on government employees in the name of freedom.

Fucking distrust in government is a large chunk of Trump's platform, it's just spun differently. Thing is, you can blame Trump directly for that rhetoric, whereas the conspiracy rhetoric is one that only shitters adopt. Can't exactly control what those people will do or say.

of course i can blame trump or sanders for obfuscating the discourse to their simple 'government is corrupt, we need revolution' stuff. two of the dimmest rocks leading the revolution is not going to get you good things.

You can do what you want, but if you think the government isn't corrupt you'll be sad to hear that it's pretty much considered normal in the US for politicians to actively try to give contracts to their buddies working in big corporations and that's how they keep their seats.

It's not corruption necessarily, but it's not entirely democratic because decisions are being made based on political financing and much of it is at the very least extremely suspicious.

Trust in the government is low because it ought to be. That being said, the ridiculously dumb idea that every single politician is a crook and is only in politics for personal gain is very naive and even juvenile, I don't think Sanders adopts that position. I think it's a convenient simplification of his platform. Convenient for you.
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
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