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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 17 2016 10:09 KwarK wrote: With grad school a good rule of thumb might be that if nobody is willing to pay for you to do it you shouldn't be doing it. But the government will pay for you. But you need to pay them back or they will arrest you 29 years later. | ||
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ErectedZenith
325 Posts
I don't even support Trump. My candidate was Rand Paul but then he fucked up big time by not pushing hard enough on Trump with iron clad sniper bullets. You only get one shot at Trump and the moment that shot missed, Trump will pound you to shred and Rand Paul never had to charisma to speak again. I like how you guys just assume things like assuming that social science/humanity degrees are much more in demand than STEM fields. STEM fields will always be in more demands than social science/humanity degrees. The later is VERY subjective. But then those social science/humanity degrees are much easier to get into, like holy shit, you need such low GPA to get into those fields. Higher barrier of entry = higher pays. Lower barrier of entry = lower pays. This is basic math. | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
On February 17 2016 10:10 Plansix wrote: But the government will pay for you. But you need to pay them back or they will arrest you 29 years later. I mean it's pretty low interest so it's not like it's a big deal... | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On February 17 2016 10:10 Sbrubbles wrote: I thought universities in the US were generally not for-profit (despite being private). It would be strange to expect a free-market approach to work when universities seek out a multitude of non-monetary objetives, reputation being probably the biggest one. For-profit universities are straight explicit money grubbing schemes that defraud veterans looking for an education. Not-for-profit are still run to make money. They just invest that money into random vanity projects (e.g. prettier student housing) because they have the money to burn. On February 17 2016 10:09 KwarK wrote: With grad school a good rule of thumb might be that if nobody is willing to pay for you to do it you shouldn't be doing it. For PhD education at least, yes. Med/Law school and masters degrees, not so much - those are all career-oriented degrees that seem reasonable to pay for, at least in principle. | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
On February 17 2016 10:09 KwarK wrote: With grad school a good rule of thumb might be that if nobody is willing to pay for you to do it you shouldn't be doing it. Grad school is pretty much mandatory now (depending on your career preference). Almost everyone has an undergrad degree these days. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23738 Posts
edit: i also definitely learned calculus in high school... along with geometry. :/ Like Walmarts, not every school is the same. Lots of predominately black schools graduate kids with about the equivalent of an 8th grade education at a predominately white school. Then we want to shut down high schools because they can't turn people who were never ready for high school into being ready for college. Bernie doesn't plan on just excluding the concept of trade schools from his college plan either. So the whole "what about trade schools" is somewhat misguided. | ||
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Slaughter
United States20254 Posts
On February 17 2016 10:19 LegalLord wrote: For-profit universities are straight explicit money grubbing schemes that defraud veterans looking for an education. Not-for-profit are still run to make money. They just invest that money into random vanity projects (e.g. prettier student housing) because they have the money to burn. For PhD education at least, yes. Med/Law school and masters degrees, not so much - those are all career-oriented degrees that seem reasonable to pay for, at least in principle. I don't know how it is in other fields but in mine there are very few who will do it at the MA level and most programs even at the PhD level still require you to probably take out some loans because you wouldn't be able to live off whatever package you get. Of course you can just get an extra part time job outside of university ;p | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On February 17 2016 10:23 Slaughter wrote: I don't know how it is in other fields but in mine there are very few who will do it at the MA level and most programs even at the PhD level still require you to probably take out some loans because you wouldn't be able to live off whatever package you get. Of course you can just get an extra part time job outside of university ;p STEM PhD's are generally covered for tuition and the equivalent of housing + 12k per year. It's a pittance but it isn't debt either. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On February 17 2016 10:10 Sbrubbles wrote: I thought universities in the US were generally not for-profit (despite being private). It would be strange to expect a free-market approach to work when universities seek out a multitude of non-monetary objetives, reputation being probably the biggest one. in theory non profit means they can take the revenues minus non-capital expenses and invest it back into the school/ company, but practically it means the school is run inefficiently, spends money on kinda dumb shit and pays admins a lot. On February 17 2016 10:10 Gorsameth wrote: What does that even mean "we have to keep up". Why does your price need to go up when another raises his. That's like the opposite of how the market should work. Seriously, what does it mean? (and no, education shouldn't even be a market). perception of value. if harvard is 60K, then if yale is only 30K it looks bad. its stupid. | ||
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Yoav
United States1874 Posts
If the problem is stupid big costs, here's a solution: move away from the current college model. Sure, campuses for people who want to blow money to hang out with young people, whatever, but otherwise just run all this shit with online courses given out to masses of people. Education is an intrinsic good, nevermind subtle benefits like "knowing what the fuck you're voting for." The only problem is that we pretend that living in a dorm is what matters for certifying you for various fields, when this could all be handled remotely for very cheap. But no one is really taking MOOCs seriously, so I had to waste lots of my life and money going to a place that would certify that I went to one of the top 5 US colleges. Who cares? It should be my evaluations that people are looking at, not that I did well at convincing college admissions officers to let me in. TL;DR Fix the system, don't just shit on humanities because you can't understand the value of education beyond financial gain. | ||
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Slaughter
United States20254 Posts
On February 17 2016 10:27 LegalLord wrote: STEM PhD's are generally covered for tuition and the equivalent of housing + 12k per year. It's a pittance but it isn't debt either. the program I am in the best you can get would be the equivalent to that without the coverage for housing so just tuition + 12k per year. That is best case scenario though, because funding for students is evaluated after every semester and there is limited funding so not everyone gets that deal (or could only get it half of the year and the other half you get half the money). This type of situation would be probably be considered middle of the pack as there are schools that offer much better but many who have a lot less to offer. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23738 Posts
perception of value. if harvard is 60K, then if vanderbilt is only 30K it looks bad. There is a real difference in value but it's not what most people think. By making tuition 60k you send a signal that students will network with people who can afford to spend that on an education, which is fair to presume would put you in contact with far more capital than if tuition is half that. Same general concept as country clubs, by restricting access to people willing to pay 2-3x as much as they would have to at a less expensive facility, you keep out the "undesirables" and people without money to waste (eg "invest" in others). | ||
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OuchyDathurts
United States4588 Posts
On February 17 2016 09:54 Plansix wrote:The difference with them is that their requirements to attend are higher and they spend money on other forms of work training, aka, the trades. Its college for bust in the US, because we don't train plumbers or meter workers. As someone who trained as a plumber, we definitely do that. You can go the non-union way or the union will pay for all your training completely after 5 years of apprenticeship, classroom instruction. The problem is people look down on trade jobs for some reason. It's not sexy, its not an office job where you're paid to watch youtube cat videos for 8 hours a day, you're going to have to do legit back breaking work. You'll be digging ditches in relentless clay, you'll burn like a billion calories a day, you'll be sore as fuck. But you'll make more money than 90% of the people you know. If memory serves once you become a journeyman you're looking at $36 an hour which is ~$72,000 a year. If you do side jobs (which are frowned upon, but everyone does them) you can easily make 100k a year. So after 5 years you can be looking at somewhere between 70-100k a year, plus benefits and all that shit, trained with zero dollars of debt. Or you can be getting out of college with a psychology degree another face in a sea of a billion people with that same degree looking for a job and sitting on a mountain of student loan debt. Plus everyone drinks water and takes a shit, that's what I call job security right there. More kids need to realize its an option and a really good option. Schools need to cater to kids interests and aptitudes more. Timmy isn't going to be a rocket scientist and that's cool, but he's really fucking good with his hands. Show him there are good jobs out there. Get people over this notion that working with your hands is something you should look down your nose at. Put mechanically skilled kids into classes in HS for heading down that path. Start the training WAY earlier. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23738 Posts
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OuchyDathurts
United States4588 Posts
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On February 17 2016 10:19 LegalLord wrote: For-profit universities are straight explicit money grubbing schemes that defraud veterans looking for an education. Not-for-profit are still run to make money. They just invest that money into random vanity projects (e.g. prettier student housing) because they have the money to burn. I understand what you're saying, though it seems to me that these "vanity projects" aren't just random and pointless in the university's point-of-view, they're part of each universiy's strategy to increase prestige and climb the rankings by getting better students. I guess my point is that it is expected that universities won't minimize cost when they have other objectives. | ||
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Introvert
United States4921 Posts
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KwarK
United States43731 Posts
On February 17 2016 10:48 Introvert wrote: Not when you hate someone this much. I have an alibi. Also there is nothing new about dislike of Scalia. He's not suddenly come out as a bigot. There's no motive to kill him this year that wouldn't apply last year. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On February 17 2016 10:48 Sbrubbles wrote: I understand what you're saying, though it seems to me that these "vanity projects" aren't just random and pointless in the university's point-of-view, they're part of each universiy's strategy to increase prestige and climb the rankings by getting better students. I guess my point is that it is expected that universities won't minimize cost when they have other objectives. They're the kind of things that don't really matter, but that schools pursue because the money lands in their hands. It's a stupid failure of the education system that the universities abuse in very cost-inefficient ways. | ||
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Introvert
United States4921 Posts
On February 17 2016 10:51 KwarK wrote: I have an alibi. Also there is nothing new about dislike of Scalia. He's not suddenly come out as a bigot. There's no motive to kill him this year that wouldn't apply last year. Perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm mocking this closeted gay theory. I accept him dying naturally. | ||
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