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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
iPlaY.NettleS
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia4393 Posts
February 12 2016 13:36 GMT
#58021
How is protectionism supposed to work when you can buy stuff online from overseas.It costs more to enforce the tax than the revenue.Maybe it can work on cars and industrial stuff but for 90% of manufactured goods it's unworkable.

Free trade is here, it ain't going away.Deal with it and stop living in the 50s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-12 13:48:07
February 12 2016 13:41 GMT
#58022
puerk you probable non merkel voters r the reason why the alliance is precarious. both on left and right of germany
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Shin_Gouki
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States313 Posts
February 12 2016 13:44 GMT
#58023
On February 12 2016 14:54 Hexe wrote:
theres not much bernie can do vs superdelegates. even if he wins the popular vote with 55% or something she will probably get 65%> supers


Superdelegates are actually a very small percentage of total delegate pool. It's essentially a disincentive for people because it seems so large. Once bernie comes to a winner takes all state like California (assuming he doesn't run out of campaign financing) the super delegates would most like switch to bernie as they did Obama.

Steve Rattler tried to be cheeky on msnbc this morning, but we know his track record isn't clean. + Show Spoiler +
http://money.cnn.com/2010/12/30/news/companies/cuomo_rattner_settlement/


Keep shilling Steve, you're making some amazing analysis towards Bernie's issue.
Death comes in many forms
frazzle
Profile Joined June 2012
United States468 Posts
February 12 2016 13:46 GMT
#58024
On February 12 2016 15:25 Seuss wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 12 2016 14:54 Hexe wrote:
theres not much bernie can do vs superdelegates. even if he wins the popular vote with 55% or something she will probably get 65%> supers


It seems unlikely that the DNC will allow superdelegates to change the outcome. It's not impossible since Sanders, unlike Obama, is an outsider, but I'm pretty sure they recognize that overturning the outcome via superdelegates will alienate Sanders' base and likely cost them the election with significant effects downstream.

Democractic leadership is frequently incompetent but they're not that incompetent.

Don't forget how acrimonious the 2008 Democratic primary was. There were a significant chunk of Hillary supporters who were so enraged, and felt so cheated for some reason, that they voted Republican and then fed into the birther craze of Obama's first term. Anything could happen this election.
puerk
Profile Joined February 2015
Germany855 Posts
February 12 2016 13:54 GMT
#58025
On February 12 2016 22:41 oneofthem wrote:
puerk you probable non merkel voters r the reason why the alliance is precarious. both on left and right of germany



Can you stop the snappy one liners when i ask you a question? You are not making an argument right now.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22132 Posts
February 12 2016 13:57 GMT
#58026
On February 12 2016 22:54 puerk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 12 2016 22:41 oneofthem wrote:
puerk you probable non merkel voters r the reason why the alliance is precarious. both on left and right of germany



Can you stop the snappy one liners when i ask you a question? You are not making an argument right now.

I dont get it either. How exactly will bernie bring down the global economie? Or whatever it is your claiming Oneofthem
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Ghostcom
Profile Joined March 2010
Denmark4783 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-12 14:14:49
February 12 2016 14:11 GMT
#58027
On February 12 2016 22:57 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 12 2016 22:54 puerk wrote:
On February 12 2016 22:41 oneofthem wrote:
puerk you probable non merkel voters r the reason why the alliance is precarious. both on left and right of germany



Can you stop the snappy one liners when i ask you a question? You are not making an argument right now.

I dont get it either. How exactly will bernie bring down the global economie? Or whatever it is your claiming Oneofthem


I'm not sure he is going to bring them down, but his opposition to free trade (and thus international trade agreements) is surely going to hurt the international economy - especially if he is going to try and revoke the previously entered deals (which it would seem).

Source

EDIT: I have no idea how reliable the source is, it was the first hit on google when I typed in "Bernie Sanders Trade Agreement". It does seem to have every statement as a direct, unedited quote with linked sources.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23714 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-12 14:31:01
February 12 2016 14:27 GMT
#58028
On February 12 2016 23:11 Ghostcom wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 12 2016 22:57 Gorsameth wrote:
On February 12 2016 22:54 puerk wrote:
On February 12 2016 22:41 oneofthem wrote:
puerk you probable non merkel voters r the reason why the alliance is precarious. both on left and right of germany



Can you stop the snappy one liners when i ask you a question? You are not making an argument right now.

I dont get it either. How exactly will bernie bring down the global economie? Or whatever it is your claiming Oneofthem


I'm not sure he is going to bring them down, but his opposition to free trade (and thus international trade agreements) is surely going to hurt the international economy - especially if he is going to try and revoke the previously entered deals (which it would seem).

Source

EDIT: I have no idea how reliable the source is, it was the first hit on google when I typed in "Bernie Sanders Trade Agreement". It does seem to have every statement as a direct, unedited quote with linked sources.


He's against Americans getting hosed as a result of them, not the concept of trade deals altogether. Personally I think a booming American economy with stricter expectations benefits more people. As the deals stand they just allow for more efficient extraction of wealth and surplus value from the poorest people in the world.

Contrary to how it's sold, consequences relating to increased wages or quality of life for working class folks in other nations are unavoidable losses rather than intentional benefits.

It's been made abundantly clear that the reason large corporations choose to pay their employees (as opposed to slavery) has nothing to do with a feeling of moral obligation to have a fair exchange between labor and capital.

Put another way, the notion that these deals help anyone other than the billionaire class is PR spin. Surely some people are benefited, but it's because it's the most effective way to make it happen. Like putting meat in a trap.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
February 12 2016 14:45 GMT
#58029
Between Trump and Sanders, it seems like there may be a healthy, bipartisan demand for some form of free trade reform.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 12 2016 14:48 GMT
#58030
I think reviewing and updating any policy every couple decades shouldn’t be a debate. Anything we did 10, 15 or 20 years ago needs to be updated and reformed. There are a lot of negatives to free trade, including instability for a lot of skill labor that maybe don’t have to be as harsh. People need to move beyond distilling these debates into binary states of elimination vs the status quo.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14104 Posts
February 12 2016 14:57 GMT
#58031
I wonder what kind of Bernie is going to show up in the southern states for the primary. Hes got a lot of credibility from vermont on gun issues and the NRA can deliver a ton of voters in those states if he keeps to his old policies. At the same time though super Tuesday is coming up and he may think that he needs to tack a bit more left on that in order to not lose out in minority states.

If he can win over gun owners in those southern states and keep the youth and ultra liberal voters he can obama's electoral victory look soft.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Ghostcom
Profile Joined March 2010
Denmark4783 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-12 15:06:02
February 12 2016 15:00 GMT
#58032
You are misrepresenting the causes and effects whilst neglecting to recognize multiple of the benefits the US population receives (i.e. cheaper goods and higher quality goods). Increasing your employment in low-skill jobs because you move some production back to the US is going to increase the cost of the goods.

It's fine that you want to improve the end of the deal for the US populace, but you have to remember that the an agreement requires 2 parties and the other half should also be willing to accept the deal at the end of the day. If the US is going to impose restrictions, so is the other part.

EDIT: Going back to my orginial point: all else kept equal, the international economy is not going to respond positively if TAs are revoked.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 12 2016 15:04 GMT
#58033
A group of Democratic senators, including Charles Schumer of New York and Jeanne Shaheen of New Hampshire, called on their Republican counterparts Thursday to pass emergency funding to tackle the prescription opioid and heroin crisis — the latest attempt by top politicians to address the problem on a national level.

Earlier this month, President Barack Obama said he would ask for $1.1 billion in the 2017 budget for funding to fight opioid and heroin abuse, including prevention programs, prescription drug monitoring programs and efforts to expand access to the drug naloxone, which is used reverse overdoses.

“All of the rhetoric in the world isn’t going to help expand access to naloxone to prevent overdose deaths and endless Senate speeches,” Schumer said. “Authorization bills won’t mean more beds at treatment centers to curb addiction.”

“We need a tourniquet and that comes in the form of emergency funding," said Sen. Edward J. Markey, a Democrat from Massachusetts, who took part in the call for emergency funding. "We are hemorrhaging lives by the day."

Later, Schumer tweeted: “Beyond opioids & heroin, for Zika, for the crisis in Flint, we must give resources to those on the front lines fighting for public health.”

Schumer’s remarks cast the opioid crisis, which has mostly affected white Americans, as a public health issue. That stands in stark contrast to the political rhetoric around the crack cocaine epidemic of the 1980’s. Crack addiction affected mainly African-Americans and was treated as a moral failing, prompting calls for police crackdowns and long prison sentences. In an October New York Times article exploring this disparity, Michael Botticelli, director of the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy, said, “Because the demographic of people affected are more white, more middle class, these are parents who are empowered … They know how to call a legislator ...”

The opioid epidemic in the United States, which has been building over the past 10 years, has garnered increased attention since the presidential primaries in New Hampshire, a state that has been particularly hard hit by drug abuse. Democratic presidential candidate Hilary Clinton wrote an op-ed in the Union Leader, a local New Hampshire newspaper, about the fight against substance abuse. Republican presidential candidate Jeb Bush published an article on Medium, in which he addressed the opioid problem, and his own daughter’s struggles with addiction.

Currently, 49 states have prescription drug monitoring programs, which act as electronic databases to keep track of all medications prescribed to a single patient, even if they are prescribed by several different doctors. However, those monitoring programs are not mandatory in all states.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43677 Posts
February 12 2016 15:09 GMT
#58034
It's like people don't notice that the largest single economic state is the EU which is a protectionist German dominated free trade zone with external tariffs.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 12 2016 15:13 GMT
#58035
The increase number of goods at cheap prices is a benefit, but also created a race to the bottom effect with a lot of good, specifically clothing. But the whole argument of “net gain for the nation” isn’t a super productive one in these discussion. No one is talking about eliminating free trade, but reforming it to lessen its negative impacts on specific groups. And those negative impacts can be lessened through targeted tariffs to create safety nets and job retraining.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Ghostcom
Profile Joined March 2010
Denmark4783 Posts
February 12 2016 15:39 GMT
#58036
I'm getting increasingly confused by what discussion it is that we are actually having... What you want to argue seems to be whether or not the current TAs are having a negative impact on specific groups in the US society (which they do). What I have been arguing is that what Bernie Sanders suggests (which is to repeal CAFTA, NAFTA, PNTR and stop TTIP and TTP) is not going to improve the international economy.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 12 2016 15:52 GMT
#58037
He does want to repeal them, but I understand that is politically impossible. The politically possible solution is reform, which can happen. Part of being a good politician is shooting the moon and compromising.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15742 Posts
February 12 2016 16:01 GMT
#58038
On February 12 2016 23:57 Sermokala wrote:
I wonder what kind of Bernie is going to show up in the southern states for the primary. Hes got a lot of credibility from vermont on gun issues and the NRA can deliver a ton of voters in those states if he keeps to his old policies. At the same time though super Tuesday is coming up and he may think that he needs to tack a bit more left on that in order to not lose out in minority states.

If he can win over gun owners in those southern states and keep the youth and ultra liberal voters he can obama's electoral victory look soft.


It would certainly be interesting to see Sanders win thanks to his stance on gun control. Especially when you consider the fact that he's far left otherwise.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 12 2016 16:06 GMT
#58039
Massachusetts senator Elizabeth Warren has asked the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) to consider the role legal marijuana could play in the prescription opioid epidemic.

Warren asked for more research into medical marijuana and painkiller addiction in a letter to the CDC director, Thomas Friedan.

“Opioid abuse is a national concern and warrants swift and immediate action,” Warren wrote.

Her request comes as politicians, including the presidential nominees, search for the best response to the opioid epidemic.

The use of prescription opioids doubled between 2000 and 2014, according to the CDC. And Massachusetts experienced its highest number of unintentional opioid overdose deaths in 2014, with nearly 1,100 people succumbing to overdose deaths.

Warren applauded the CDC’s actions so far to curb the epidemic but called on the agency to look at whether medical marijuana could be an alternative painkiller.

She also urged the agency to quickly finalize its guidelines for prescribing opioids for chronic pain and called for increased collaboration between the CDC and other federal health agencies to determine the long-term effects of opioid use in children and the increased use of the powerful synthetic opioid fentanyl.

Nestled in with these recommendations is a call to consider the role of marijuana legalization in the crisis.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
DickMcFanny
Profile Blog Joined September 2015
Ireland1076 Posts
February 12 2016 16:09 GMT
#58040
That depends on what you mean by "the economy".

For the super rich it would be disastrous, for the rest of the domestic population it would be a true blessing.

'Free trade agreements' during the past 40 years have been nothing but awful for basically everyone involved.
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