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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22131 Posts
February 10 2016 18:30 GMT
#57641
On February 11 2016 03:21 oBlade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2016 03:14 oneofthem wrote:
political dynasties are not all bad. there is some long term thinking in there as opposed to revolving dooring.

kennedy was doing ok

Executives are supposed to be switched often in the US system. The rest of your political career can be somewhere else doing long-term things, like as a legislator. We should be skeptical (but open) right off the bat of the likelihood of people with the same last name all being exceptional enough to hold the highest office arguably on the planet.

its one thing to do that for sons/brothers. Its another to do it for partners.
So Bill chose to marry a politically competent (arguably I guess) women.
Does that mean we should disregard her based off that? Hell no.

If you think Hillary is a bad choice based on her idea's and actions then fine, but to rule someone out purely on the bases of their name is just dumb.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8725 Posts
February 10 2016 18:32 GMT
#57642
On February 11 2016 03:28 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2016 03:13 Gorsameth wrote:
On February 11 2016 03:03 travis wrote:
Some people, including myself, find lineages and "ruling families" to be a giant red flag.

We have hundreds of millions of people in this country. I don't want to vote in the wife of a former president. It's ridiculous.

Honestly that's good enough reason to not vote for her. It really is. Can people really not see this? Do people not care whether or not we are ruled by an oligarchy?

No I think its a dumb reason to rule out anyone.
Politicians should be judged on their merit, not on who they are related or married to.


I feel like this is very naive when you start examining the friends and family connections between those in power in the U.S. "Merit" is interesting. Do you think it's harder or easier to get jobs in politics when you are deeply entrenched in a network of super rich politicians and businessmen?

just ask jeb! bush
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before the fall.
Deathstar
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
9150 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-10 18:35:11
February 10 2016 18:32 GMT
#57643
On February 11 2016 03:21 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2016 03:17 Deathstar wrote:
On February 11 2016 03:15 Gorsameth wrote:
On February 11 2016 03:13 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Clinton lost young Women by 60 points, or 4 out of 5... Holy fuck. I didn't anyone saw that coming.

Just being a women doesn't get women to vote for you, same with race.
You have to actually have a message they care about.


That's not true. AFAIK in SC, and nationally, many black people consider Bill Clinton an honorary black person and they will stay loyal to his wife. That's the extent of their politics.

Extent of “their” politics? Are you for real right now? Are you sure that blacks don’t vote with Clinton because Bill listened to their issues and they expected the same from his wife? And the Republicans have really be courting the black vote for a while, right? And by courting it, I mean not making any effort to attract black voters.


Bill intensified the war on drugs and his welfare reform programs specifically hurt black people more than white people. But he played the saxophone and had a bj scandal so that's all that matters.

Republicans doing a poor job with black voters is different from black people, for some reason, considering Bill the first black president. It's delusional.

But there is evidence that Clinton's unmatched popularity among blacks confused many about the true economic impact of his presidency. In a 2005 article I co-authored in the Journal of Black Studies, I analyzed five national surveys from 1984 through 2000. The data show that nearly a third of black Americans held false understandings of black economic conditions during the Clinton years. By the time Clinton left office, many African-Americans incorrectly believed that blacks were doing better economically than whites. In the '80s, barely 5 percent of blacks believed blacks were economically better off than whites. By 2000, nearly 30 percent of African-American respondents believed that blacks were doing better economically than whites. This belief is simply wrong.


http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2008/01/the_clinton_fallacy.html
rip passion
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 10 2016 18:33 GMT
#57644
On February 11 2016 03:28 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2016 03:13 Gorsameth wrote:
On February 11 2016 03:03 travis wrote:
Some people, including myself, find lineages and "ruling families" to be a giant red flag.

We have hundreds of millions of people in this country. I don't want to vote in the wife of a former president. It's ridiculous.

Honestly that's good enough reason to not vote for her. It really is. Can people really not see this? Do people not care whether or not we are ruled by an oligarchy?

No I think its a dumb reason to rule out anyone.
Politicians should be judged on their merit, not on who they are related or married to.


I feel like this is very naive when you start examining the friends and family connections between those in power in the U.S. "Merit" is interesting. Do you think it's harder or easier to get jobs in politics when you are deeply entrenched in a network of super rich politicians and businessmen?

Jobs are easier to find if you know someone and can network. But your ability to do said job is also a big part of getting it most of the time. Discussing that someone is connected in the world of politics is redundant because everyone networks heavily in politics.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22131 Posts
February 10 2016 18:34 GMT
#57645
On February 11 2016 03:28 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2016 03:13 Gorsameth wrote:
On February 11 2016 03:03 travis wrote:
Some people, including myself, find lineages and "ruling families" to be a giant red flag.

We have hundreds of millions of people in this country. I don't want to vote in the wife of a former president. It's ridiculous.

Honestly that's good enough reason to not vote for her. It really is. Can people really not see this? Do people not care whether or not we are ruled by an oligarchy?

No I think its a dumb reason to rule out anyone.
Politicians should be judged on their merit, not on who they are related or married to.


I feel like this is very naive when you start examining the friends and family connections between those in power in the U.S. "Merit" is interesting. Do you think it's harder or easier to get jobs in politics when you are deeply entrenched in a network of super rich politicians and businessmen?

I have not denied the power of connections anywhere.
I am stating we should judge candidates on their idea's and actions, not on their name.

We should not turn to the village idiot just because the other candidate comes with political connections.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18855 Posts
February 10 2016 18:36 GMT
#57646
On February 11 2016 03:27 Doublemint wrote:
why do you think die hard reps/hillary haters want her to lose?

they know they will lose the general because their field is weak and in disarray AF. bernie winning the primary would be christmas and easter bunny combined.

get a grip people like xdaunt, you had a rough awakening after romneybot lost. you will have a second one when hillarybot wins I reckon ^^

big picture did not change - not even a bit.

Notice that you're willing to characterize Sanders' nomination as "christmas and easter bunny combined," and yet are unwilling to flip that characterization around relative to how the chaotic Republican candidate field affects Sanders' chances. Language of the "fringe" cuts both ways when it comes to electoral advantage; Sanders' potentially unpalatable ideological platform versus that of Cruz or Trump is not a one-sided affair, contrary to your implication otherwise.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8725 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-10 18:48:09
February 10 2016 18:40 GMT
#57647
you were absolutely correct - in any other country that is not the USA.

socialist = communism = boogeyman.

it does not matter that it's hogwash, people are conditioned to make that assumption. many people. too many if my opinion/ somewhat experience serves me well.

//edit: getting cassandra vibes here to be honest.
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before the fall.
RvB
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands6269 Posts
February 10 2016 18:48 GMT
#57648
Still though I have a hard time imagining Cruz or Trump getting any centre votes. Sanders at least seems honest.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18855 Posts
February 10 2016 18:49 GMT
#57649
On February 11 2016 03:40 Doublemint wrote:
you were absolutely correct - in any other country that is not the USA.

socialist = communism = boogeyman.

it does not matter that it's hogwash, people are conditioned to make that assumption. many people. too many if my opinion/ somewhat experience serves me well.

So long as you realize that your assertion as to the state of the US electorate relative to buzzwords like "socialist" amounts to nothing more than just that, an assertion, then we have no substantial disagreement. Though you'll have to forgive me for not assigning too great a weight to the opinions of someone who isn't even from the US; though I recognize the stark differences between the US and Austria when it comes to global political prominence, it would be the height of arrogance for me to assume that my opinion as to the Austrian political climate is in any way superior or equal to that of a native citizen. This is not to say that you won't find Americans who share your view on the negative connotations surrounding words like "socialist" relative to Sanders' chances, rather that there are many Americans who disagree with that view and can competently argue in support of that disagreement.

I mean, let's be real, if folks' criticisms directed towards Bernie supporters and their proclivity to fling negative attacks at other candidates is at all true in an emblematic sense, then Sanders and his campaign will have no problem in getting "fascist" to stick to the likes of Trump or Cruz. Granted, a Republican candidate like Rubio or Kasich would present Sanders with a far more difficult challenge, but then again, none of the establishment Republican candidates are anywhere near the top of the primary pile
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Deathstar
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
9150 Posts
February 10 2016 18:50 GMT
#57650
On February 11 2016 03:26 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2016 03:17 Deathstar wrote:
On February 11 2016 03:15 Gorsameth wrote:
On February 11 2016 03:13 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Clinton lost young Women by 60 points, or 4 out of 5... Holy fuck. I didn't anyone saw that coming.

Just being a women doesn't get women to vote for you, same with race.
You have to actually have a message they care about.


That's not true. AFAIK in SC, and nationally, many black people consider Bill Clinton an honorary black person and they will stay loyal to his wife. That's the extent of their politics.

Some people will think like that, the vast majority will not.

If Carson won the republican nomination, would he sweep in 80% of the black vote because he is black?
Is Fiorina getting every female republican's vote?

If your message is shit, it doesn't matter what your race or gender is.


Most black people are by default democratic and most females are by default democratic so they won't sway towards the Republicans.

As of January, SC black people are overwhelmingly for Hillary 74-17 Sanders. You can argue that they know Hillary's positions and believe she is their candidate but their positive view towards Hillary probably has more to do with Bill.

http://maristpoll.marist.edu/wp-content/misc/SCpolls/SC160117/NBC News_WSJ_Marist Poll South Carolina Tables of Likely Democratic Primary Voters_January 2016.pdf#page=1
rip passion
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 10 2016 18:56 GMT
#57651
MANCHESTER N.H. – For the establishment wing of the Republican Party, the picture just keeps getting bleaker.

Far from winnowing the crowded field of mainstream GOP contenders and allowing it to unify around a standard-bearer, New Hampshire thrust it further into chaos. Marco Rubio, after taking steps last week to coalesce the backing of the party’s upper echelons, saw his momentum halted in the state, which punished him for delivering an overly scripted debate performance.

The establishment picture is now more clouded than ever, with Rubio, Jeb Bush, and New Hampshire runner-up John Kasich heading for a brutal fight in South Carolina – a state known for its rough-and-tumble political culture. Chris Christie, who was also competing for establishment support, is reassessing his campaign’s future.

All of this, many in the mainstream wing of the GOP worry, is excellent news for one man: Donald Trump.

“This is the perfect storm for Trump,” said Matt Dowd, who served as chief strategist on George W. Bush’s 2004 reelection campaign. “He got his poll numbers, won by double digits, recovered from a loss, and has multiple opponents. You couldn’t design a better scenario for him.”

By the time the party gets around to unifying around a mainstream contender, Dowd added, it’s possible Trump will have gained enough momentum to be unstoppable.

It will also complicate the efforts to halt Ted Cruz, who like Trump is running in the insurgent lane. After winning the Iowa caucuses, Cruz coasted to a third-place finish in New Hampshire. But he is well positioned in evangelical-rich South Carolina and a series of southern states that vote in March.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-10 18:59:43
February 10 2016 18:59 GMT
#57652
On February 11 2016 03:32 Deathstar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2016 03:21 Plansix wrote:
On February 11 2016 03:17 Deathstar wrote:
On February 11 2016 03:15 Gorsameth wrote:
On February 11 2016 03:13 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Clinton lost young Women by 60 points, or 4 out of 5... Holy fuck. I didn't anyone saw that coming.

Just being a women doesn't get women to vote for you, same with race.
You have to actually have a message they care about.


That's not true. AFAIK in SC, and nationally, many black people consider Bill Clinton an honorary black person and they will stay loyal to his wife. That's the extent of their politics.

Extent of “their” politics? Are you for real right now? Are you sure that blacks don’t vote with Clinton because Bill listened to their issues and they expected the same from his wife? And the Republicans have really be courting the black vote for a while, right? And by courting it, I mean not making any effort to attract black voters.


Bill intensified the war on drugs and his welfare reform programs specifically hurt black people more than white people. But he played the saxophone and had a bj scandal so that's all that matters.

Republicans doing a poor job with black voters is different from black people, for some reason, considering Bill the first black president. It's delusional.
Show nested quote +

But there is evidence that Clinton's unmatched popularity among blacks confused many about the true economic impact of his presidency. In a 2005 article I co-authored in the Journal of Black Studies, I analyzed five national surveys from 1984 through 2000. The data show that nearly a third of black Americans held false understandings of black economic conditions during the Clinton years. By the time Clinton left office, many African-Americans incorrectly believed that blacks were doing better economically than whites. In the '80s, barely 5 percent of blacks believed blacks were economically better off than whites. By 2000, nearly 30 percent of African-American respondents believed that blacks were doing better economically than whites. This belief is simply wrong.


http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2008/01/the_clinton_fallacy.html


The changes had the support of leaders in the black community. Sadly as we know know, it was a failed experiment in policing. Welfare reform also was a compromise with a Republican controlled Congress.

Context.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45348 Posts
February 10 2016 19:01 GMT
#57653
On February 11 2016 03:03 travis wrote:
Some people, including myself, find lineages and "ruling families" to be a giant red flag.

We have hundreds of millions of people in this country. I don't want to vote in the wife of a former president. It's ridiculous.

Honestly that's good enough reason to not vote for her. It really is. Can people really not see this? Do people not care whether or not we are ruled by an oligarchy?


If she's the best candidate for the job, it shouldn't matter who her relatives are. Same goes with Jeb or any other candidate who's related to a previous president/ candidate.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8725 Posts
February 10 2016 19:02 GMT
#57654
well fair enough I guess. just keep that possibility in mind.

and I will say it again - republican machine turned kerry into a wimp and bush into a war hero. they understand language and what is perceived as strength - truth be damned. I have yet to see a great campaign from dems after obama's 08. during his 2 terms they basically turned hope and change to ashes.
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before the fall.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 10 2016 19:05 GMT
#57655
In a letter to president Obama, a former federal judge is asking that a sentence he handed down in 2004 be commuted.

"In looking back on the case, it was one of the most troubling that I ever faced in my five years on the federal bench," Paul G. Cassell wrote on Tuesday.

Because of prison terms mandated by law, Cassell sentenced Weldon Angelos to 55 years in prison.

As the court documents describe, Angelos was a first-time offender when he was convicted of dealing marijuana at 24-years-old. But his case was complicated by the fact that Angelos carried a gun to two drug deals and then a third offense was added when police executed a search warrant and found more guns at Angelos' home.

Because of the weapons charges and because of the mandatory minimums crafted by the law, Cassell was forced to issue the 55-year-sentence.

At the time, Cassell, who was nominated to the federal bench by George W. Bush in 2001, complained that the sentence was "unjust, cruel and even irrational."

"The 55–year sentence substantially exceeds what the jury recommended to the court," Cassell wrote in his sentencing memorandum. "It is also far in excess of the sentence imposed for such serious crimes as aircraft hijacking, second degree murder, espionage, kidnapping, aggravated assault, and rape. It exceeds what recidivist criminals will likely serve under the federal 'three strikes' provision."

In his letter to Obama, Cassell said that this sentence was hard to defend when it was imposed, but that he is glad that Obama and his Justice Department have started reviewing these unfair sentences.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18855 Posts
February 10 2016 19:08 GMT
#57656
On February 11 2016 04:02 Doublemint wrote:
well fair enough I guess. just keep that possibility in mind.

and I will say it again - republican machine turned kerry into a wimp and bush into a war hero. they understand language and what is perceived as strength - truth be damned. I have yet to see a great campaign from dems after obama's 08. during his 2 terms they basically turned hope and change to ashes.

Bush was an excellent political vehicle with which the Republican establishment could fairly easily unite the party; his family and background (the establishment aspect) married with the reactionary impulses brought on by 9/11 quite nicely and the man himself was so lacking in substantive motivation that it wasn't exactly difficult for the Republican party to basically place who it wanted among his cabinet. The machine that turned Kerry into a swiftboat disaster is no longer operating, and Trump's performance in NH and elsewhere is pretty good evidence of that.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
February 10 2016 19:10 GMT
#57657
On February 11 2016 04:08 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2016 04:02 Doublemint wrote:
well fair enough I guess. just keep that possibility in mind.

and I will say it again - republican machine turned kerry into a wimp and bush into a war hero. they understand language and what is perceived as strength - truth be damned. I have yet to see a great campaign from dems after obama's 08. during his 2 terms they basically turned hope and change to ashes.

Bush was an excellent political vehicle with which the Republican establishment could fairly easily unite the party; his family and background (the establishment aspect) married with the reactionary impulses brought on by 9/11 quite nicely and the man himself was so lacking in substantive motivation that it wasn't exactly difficult for the Republican party to basically place who it wanted among his cabinet. The machine that turned Kerry into a swiftboat disaster is no longer operating, and Trump's performance in NH and elsewhere is pretty good evidence of that.


its around, it just became sentiment and turned on its creators
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
February 10 2016 19:21 GMT
#57658
On February 11 2016 04:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2016 03:03 travis wrote:
Some people, including myself, find lineages and "ruling families" to be a giant red flag.

We have hundreds of millions of people in this country. I don't want to vote in the wife of a former president. It's ridiculous.

Honestly that's good enough reason to not vote for her. It really is. Can people really not see this? Do people not care whether or not we are ruled by an oligarchy?


If she's the best candidate for the job, it shouldn't matter who her relatives are. Same goes with Jeb or any other candidate who's related to a previous president/ candidate.


also:

john quincy adams and john adams

teddy roosevelt and FDR

JFK and robert, who probably would have been elected if he wasnt assassinated

bush sr wasnt that bad tbh, dubya was bad

nothing wrong with "dynasties"...

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
February 10 2016 19:50 GMT
#57659
lol just lol at the idea that sanders would not be vulnerable to attacks. guy practically invites it
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18855 Posts
February 10 2016 19:51 GMT
#57660
your reading comprehension is as facile as your sentence structure and grasp of US electoral politics
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
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