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On December 17 2015 01:56 Eliezar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2015 01:42 farvacola wrote:
Quite a few Republicans refuse to even entertain the notion that Iran would make a better ally than the Saudis; this same camp similarly refuses to acknowledge the widening gap between the waning political authority of the Ayatollah relative to the increasingly Western-friendly Iranian government. Go figure. If Iran was going to be able to be our ally it would have happened under Obama. I really don't think Iran or Saudi Arabia are countries you want as allies from a moral perspective, but we definitely could use less tension with Iran than we've had ever since we meddled with their government. I think that's one thing that was good with the debate last night that multiple candidates were stating that regime change just doesn't work...it doesn't change the culture.
Its been less then 40 years since they got rid of an American installed dictator and the last president (Bush) made credible threats about invading them. While Obama was working on a diplomatic deal with Iran the Republicans send a letter to them to tell em that any treaty would be null and void if they got into office.
Ofcourse they aren't really looking towards being America's ally. It takes time to get over stuff like that.
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Bush will go down as one of the worst presidents in the history of the US. The number of things that went wrong and were bungled under his administration are boundless. And the general disrespect for the political process and law was boundless. 9/11, hurricane Katrina, War Iraq and ending with the real estate crash, the country was worse off and more dangerous when he took office after the Clinton years. And we are still paying for Bush’s mistakes.
But all his buddies got rich, so there is that.
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United States43866 Posts
On December 17 2015 02:00 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2015 01:56 Eliezar wrote:On December 17 2015 01:42 farvacola wrote:
Quite a few Republicans refuse to even entertain the notion that Iran would make a better ally than the Saudis; this same camp similarly refuses to acknowledge the widening gap between the waning political authority of the Ayatollah relative to the increasingly Western-friendly Iranian government. Go figure. If Iran was going to be able to be our ally it would have happened under Obama. I really don't think Iran or Saudi Arabia are countries you want as allies from a moral perspective, but we definitely could use less tension with Iran than we've had ever since we meddled with their government. I think that's one thing that was good with the debate last night that multiple candidates were stating that regime change just doesn't work...it doesn't change the culture. Its been less then 40 years since they got rid of an American installed dictator and the last president (Bush) made credible threats about invading them. While Obama was working on a diplomatic deal with Iran the Republicans send a letter to them to tell em that any treaty would be null and void if they got into office. Ofcourse they aren't really looking towards being America's ally. It takes time to get over stuff like that.
Then there was that time the American military shot down one of their passenger planes killing a few hundred civilians for literally no reason and Bush senior explained that he wouldn't apologize for it because, and I quote, he "doesn't apologize for America, no matter what the facts are". Then the guy who gave the order to target the civilian airliner because it wasn't responding to his demands on the military frequency got a medal.
America is unequivocally the bad guy in the Iran America relationship. America staged a 9/11 style attack on them only rather than it being stateless terrorists it was people wearing uniforms with the American flag on them and then you gave out fucking medals to the sailors who did it.
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On December 17 2015 01:39 KwarK wrote:
I don't get what all the hate for Iran is. I mean they're far more friendly than Saudi Arabia and they've actually been fighting ISIS for a while. If we accept the need for regional partners in the Middle East, and at some point hopefully we will, Iran is as good as we'll get. Sure there is some history there but America were the bigger dicks and dwelling on historical grudges does not make good foreign policy.
I pretty much agree. And their stance isn't wholly unreasonable given the fact that we overthrew their democratically elected government, shot down one of their passenger jets, embargoed the living bejesus out of them and I don't know what else.
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On December 17 2015 01:37 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2015 01:34 Gorsameth wrote:On December 17 2015 01:27 xDaunt wrote:On December 17 2015 01:23 Gorsameth wrote:On December 17 2015 01:12 xDaunt wrote:On December 17 2015 01:00 always_winter wrote:
The Republican primary is about as diverse as 18th century landowners. Trump is the only non-politician, and his policy views are no different, just exaggerated. The funniest thing about this is that the democrat primary is far less diverse. It's a bunch of old white people tripping over each other to be the first to agree with each other on every point. Regardless of how you cut it, there's far more diversity in the republican primary. (Not that anyone with half a brain give a shit about this). it doesn't matter how diverse the candidates are when every single one of them is incompetent. This is a presidential election, not a variate comedy show. And what competence did Hillary demonstrate as Secretary of State? One of the big takeaways for me from last night's debate is that the country is going to get a stark reminder of just how bad she was when the presidential race gets under way. Well she hasn't proposed to murder the families of our enemies, proposed a tax code based on the bible, shutdown the government, called for the bombing of Iran for no real reason ectect. And your taking things away from a debate that focused on scoring cheap points with the lowest common denomination? I like to believe that the majority of Americans have some brain capacity left. Are you really going to pretend that all of the republican candidates have adopted Trump's positions or those cherry picked extreme positions from other candidates? And you completely dodged the larger point: Hillary was an inept Secretary of State.
I think this perspective is mildly misguided. I think that a strong benchmark for a secretary of state, previously, was how the world looked from our perspective. Are our dictators strong? How about enemies? Are their economies strong? How about their military?
Nowadays, I think we have a lot less control over that and not just from us being weaker. We had a giant economic/infrastructure/military head start for a long time, but we are very clearly approaching a somewhat asymptotic area. I don't think it is feasible for even the best secretary of state to keep the middle ease subjugated, China's navy weak, Russia's growth stomped and all the other things that have gone wrong in the past 10 years. I think that it really just isn't possible for the US to stay extremely dominant over Chinese gangs and Russian gangs. Countries around the world are developing very rapidly and we can't stop that. The US is going to be increasingly less influential as time goes on no matter what. A lot of our strength was not only us doing well, but everyone else doing poorly.
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Off the top of my head, Hillary fucked up on:
Russia
Libya
Syria (twice)
Iraq
I'm sure that Obama was calling the shots on a lot of these screw ups, but it's going to be nearly impossible for her to separate herself from Obama's foreign policy.
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On December 17 2015 02:43 xDaunt wrote:
Off the top of my head, Hillary fucked up on:
Russia
Libya
Syria (twice)
Iraq
I'm sure that Obama was calling the shots on a lot of these screw ups, but it's going to be nearly impossible for her to separate herself from Obama's foreign policy.
But doesn't fuck up imply that it is totally within our control? My point is that I think some of these things are simply beyond our control at this point. We are past the times when ultimately, we called the shots. We can try and fail now. And my point is that it isn't a failure of us, it's a success of others.
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United States43866 Posts
On December 17 2015 02:34 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2015 01:37 xDaunt wrote:On December 17 2015 01:34 Gorsameth wrote:On December 17 2015 01:27 xDaunt wrote:On December 17 2015 01:23 Gorsameth wrote:On December 17 2015 01:12 xDaunt wrote:On December 17 2015 01:00 always_winter wrote:
The Republican primary is about as diverse as 18th century landowners. Trump is the only non-politician, and his policy views are no different, just exaggerated. The funniest thing about this is that the democrat primary is far less diverse. It's a bunch of old white people tripping over each other to be the first to agree with each other on every point. Regardless of how you cut it, there's far more diversity in the republican primary. (Not that anyone with half a brain give a shit about this). it doesn't matter how diverse the candidates are when every single one of them is incompetent. This is a presidential election, not a variate comedy show. And what competence did Hillary demonstrate as Secretary of State? One of the big takeaways for me from last night's debate is that the country is going to get a stark reminder of just how bad she was when the presidential race gets under way. Well she hasn't proposed to murder the families of our enemies, proposed a tax code based on the bible, shutdown the government, called for the bombing of Iran for no real reason ectect. And your taking things away from a debate that focused on scoring cheap points with the lowest common denomination? I like to believe that the majority of Americans have some brain capacity left. Are you really going to pretend that all of the republican candidates have adopted Trump's positions or those cherry picked extreme positions from other candidates? And you completely dodged the larger point: Hillary was an inept Secretary of State. I think this perspective is mildly misguided. I think that a strong benchmark for a secretary of state, previously, was how the world looked from our perspective. Are our dictators strong? How about enemies? Are their economies strong? How about their military? Nowadays, I think we have a lot less control over that and not just from us being weaker. We had a giant economic/infrastructure/military head start for a long time, but we are very clearly approaching a somewhat asymptotic area. I don't think it is feasible for even the best secretary of state to keep the middle ease subjugated, China's navy weak, Russia's growth stomped and all the other things that have gone wrong in the past 10 years. I think that it really just isn't possible for the US to stay extremely dominant over Chinese gangs and Russian gangs. Countries around the world are developing very rapidly and we can't stop that. The US is going to be increasingly less influential as time goes on no matter what. A lot of our strength was not only us doing well, but everyone else doing poorly.
Russia is weaker now than it was before Obama. America's loss of strength due to the drain in the Middle East left Russia comparatively stronger, the commitment in one area guaranteed there would be no commitment in the Black Sea or Eastern Europe but that was Bush era. In the last 8 years Russia has taken on the foreign commitments and adventurism of a big player while predominantly American manipulation of the oil and gas markets has destroyed the economic foundation for that adventurism. Russia may have gained the Crimea but the Crimea just brings new obligations to an already stretched budget.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11759391/Oil-and-gas-crunch-pushes-Russia-closer-to-fiscal-crisis.html
Gazprom provides 20% of all Russian budget revenues and I would be amazed if nobody in the government was aware of what domestic American oil would do to Russia (among other potential enemies). Furthermore the sanctions control the technology needed for Russian arctic oil exploration.
A combination of American domestic policy and international diplomacy has effectively imploded the Russian economy in the last few years, no matter how many shirtless selfies Putin takes on horseback, Obama (or his staff) beat him. It won't topple the regime because it's a dictatorship but that kind of damage spreads ripples. It causes brain drain of the skilled technicians to greener pastures, it prevents a future generation of workers getting the education they should, it increases corruption and inefficiency in the government, it cripples the creation and expansion of private enterprise and it sentences the population to crime, poverty and unemployment. But hey, at least they have the Crimea to enjoy while the likes of Turkey teabag them.
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On December 17 2015 02:09 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2015 02:00 Gorsameth wrote:On December 17 2015 01:56 Eliezar wrote:On December 17 2015 01:42 farvacola wrote:
Quite a few Republicans refuse to even entertain the notion that Iran would make a better ally than the Saudis; this same camp similarly refuses to acknowledge the widening gap between the waning political authority of the Ayatollah relative to the increasingly Western-friendly Iranian government. Go figure. If Iran was going to be able to be our ally it would have happened under Obama. I really don't think Iran or Saudi Arabia are countries you want as allies from a moral perspective, but we definitely could use less tension with Iran than we've had ever since we meddled with their government. I think that's one thing that was good with the debate last night that multiple candidates were stating that regime change just doesn't work...it doesn't change the culture. Its been less then 40 years since they got rid of an American installed dictator and the last president (Bush) made credible threats about invading them. While Obama was working on a diplomatic deal with Iran the Republicans send a letter to them to tell em that any treaty would be null and void if they got into office. Ofcourse they aren't really looking towards being America's ally. It takes time to get over stuff like that. Then there was that time the American military shot down one of their passenger planes killing a few hundred civilians for literally no reason and Bush senior explained that he wouldn't apologize for it because, and I quote, he "doesn't apologize for America, no matter what the facts are". Then the guy who gave the order to target the civilian airliner because it wasn't responding to his demands on the military frequency got a medal. America is unequivocally the bad guy in the Iran America relationship. America staged a 9/11 style attack on them only rather than it being stateless terrorists it was people wearing uniforms with the American flag on them and then you gave out fucking medals to the sailors who did it.
I'm on a phone right now but that isn't correct according to Wikipedia.
Sailors mistook the plane for a fighter jet after they skirmished with Iranian boats. Bush's comments were a campaign line he'd been using before the event and wiki says he didn't use it in relation to the event. Medals were mainly standard tour of duty, and we're not given out because of the airliner. US later apologized and made restitution.
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United States43866 Posts
On December 17 2015 02:52 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2015 02:09 KwarK wrote:On December 17 2015 02:00 Gorsameth wrote:On December 17 2015 01:56 Eliezar wrote:On December 17 2015 01:42 farvacola wrote:
Quite a few Republicans refuse to even entertain the notion that Iran would make a better ally than the Saudis; this same camp similarly refuses to acknowledge the widening gap between the waning political authority of the Ayatollah relative to the increasingly Western-friendly Iranian government. Go figure. If Iran was going to be able to be our ally it would have happened under Obama. I really don't think Iran or Saudi Arabia are countries you want as allies from a moral perspective, but we definitely could use less tension with Iran than we've had ever since we meddled with their government. I think that's one thing that was good with the debate last night that multiple candidates were stating that regime change just doesn't work...it doesn't change the culture. Its been less then 40 years since they got rid of an American installed dictator and the last president (Bush) made credible threats about invading them. While Obama was working on a diplomatic deal with Iran the Republicans send a letter to them to tell em that any treaty would be null and void if they got into office. Ofcourse they aren't really looking towards being America's ally. It takes time to get over stuff like that. Then there was that time the American military shot down one of their passenger planes killing a few hundred civilians for literally no reason and Bush senior explained that he wouldn't apologize for it because, and I quote, he "doesn't apologize for America, no matter what the facts are". Then the guy who gave the order to target the civilian airliner because it wasn't responding to his demands on the military frequency got a medal. America is unequivocally the bad guy in the Iran America relationship. America staged a 9/11 style attack on them only rather than it being stateless terrorists it was people wearing uniforms with the American flag on them and then you gave out fucking medals to the sailors who did it. I'm on a phone right now but that isn't correct according to Wikipedia. Sailors mistook the plane for a fighter jet after they skirmished with Iranian boats. Bush's comments were a campaign line he'd been using before the event and wiki says he didn't use it in relation to the event. Medals were mainly standard tour of duty, and we're not given out because of the airliner. US later apologized and made restitution.
The US expressed regret that the incident happened in a non apology. They made restitution because they knew damn well they'd murdered a bunch of Iranians but that's not an apology.
It was a routine passenger airliner going down the US approved safe flight route it always took at the scheduled flight time. It was not doing anything that might have led anyone anywhere to believe that it was anything other than it was. Even the destroyer's Aegis Combat System recorded that rather than diving, as the crew claimed it was, it was rising and that it was squawking throughout on the civilian channels it should have been. The crew all adamantly claimed things that directly contradicted the records of their instruments to the point that the US in 2000 explained the incident as "scenario fulfillment", a mass hysteria resulting in working too long under pressure to the point that training protocols are carried out while ignoring sensory information that contradicts the scenario being fulfilled.
It was a fuckup of colossal proportions. Like imagine if you're a police officer and you volunteer to go to a school to do a talk about your job and you accidentally shoot a bunch of the kids because you thought they might be ISIS. That's how bad those sailors fucked up on their day at work. That police officer would not be getting told "don't worry, these things happen" and getting a medal at the end of the year.
The only appropriate response would have been to hand out court martials like candy. You don't give medals and say "these things happen". The American response to that incident was shameful and arrogant, consisting mostly of "well we're a superpower so basically you just have to eat shit because fuck you".
Edit: The Navy's own inquiry had this to say
"The data from USS Vincennes tapes, information from USS Sides and reliable intelligence information, corroborate the fact that [Iran Air Flight 655] was on a normal commercial air flight plan profile, in the assigned airway, squawking Mode III 6760, on a continuous ascent in altitude from take-off at Bandar Abbas to shoot-down".
Edit2: The wikipedia article would be funny if it wasn't a tragedy
So the Petty Officer who first picked up the plane on radar thought it was a civilian airliner so he started checking it against the records of the flights that would be happening. But it was dark so he didn't see flight 655 on the list.
Seriously?
Also the navy inquiry ruled out the skirmishing with Iranian gunboat explanation.
There are claims that Vincennes was engaged in an operation using a decoy cargo ship to lure Iranian gunboats to a fight.[40] These claims were denied by Fogarty in "Hearing Before The Investigation Subcommittee and The Defense Policy Panel of The Committee on Armed Services, House of Representatives, One Hundred Second Congress, Second Session, 21 July 1992". Also, the initial claims of Vincennes being called for help by a cargo ship attacked by Iranian gunboats have been ruled out.
The navy inquiry basically went with "we checked the actual recordings from the instruments, from other ships and from our intelligence in the area and all of it contradicts the story we got from those dumbasses who decided to shoot down an airliner. We can only conclude that they're fucking morons there was some kind of mass hysteria that caused them to ignore all of the actual information."
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On December 17 2015 02:46 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2015 02:43 xDaunt wrote:
Off the top of my head, Hillary fucked up on:
Russia
Libya
Syria (twice)
Iraq
I'm sure that Obama was calling the shots on a lot of these screw ups, but it's going to be nearly impossible for her to separate herself from Obama's foreign policy. But doesn't fuck up imply that it is totally within our control? My point is that I think some of these things are simply beyond our control at this point. We are past the times when ultimately, we called the shots. We can try and fail now. And my point is that it isn't a failure of us, it's a success of others.
Its weird how we don’t have absolute power over sovereign nations. Like Russia is somehow her fault because it decided annex sections of countries.
Really that is what has harmed us most, the Bush administration’s decision to invade a country under false pretenses and then hang out there for a decade. So now our whole country has zero desire to get involved with any overseas conflict. And lets not forget congress voting down Obama’s push to bomb Syria after using chemical weapons, even though we said we would. Same with the UK. And weirdly after that, Russia annexes Crimea like 8 months later.
Its almost like Russia saw that Congress voted against Obama on the international stage and decided to take advantage of that. Its weird how if your country is a world power, but Congress is a bunch of bickering idiots, that dictatorships don’t take your seriously.
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On December 17 2015 03:04 KwarK wrote:
It was a fuckup of colossal proportions. Like imagine if you're a police officer and you volunteer to go to a school to do a talk about your job and you accidentally shoot a bunch of the kids because you thought they might be ISIS. That's how bad those sailors fucked up on their day at work. That police officer would not be getting told "don't worry, these things happen" and getting a medal at the end of the year.
The actual H.W. Bush quote was "I'm not an apologize for America kind of guy", so yeah pretty fucked up. Imagine Putin saying this to the Dutch after MH17.
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On December 17 2015 03:13 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2015 03:04 KwarK wrote:
It was a fuckup of colossal proportions. Like imagine if you're a police officer and you volunteer to go to a school to do a talk about your job and you accidentally shoot a bunch of the kids because you thought they might be ISIS. That's how bad those sailors fucked up on their day at work. That police officer would not be getting told "don't worry, these things happen" and getting a medal at the end of the year.
The actual H.W. Bush quote was "I'm not an apologize for America kind of guy", so yeah pretty fucked up. Imagine Putin saying this to the Dutch after MH17.
He never admitted it was Russians that shot down the plane thoughhhhh
#atleastwearentputin
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United States43866 Posts
On December 17 2015 03:13 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2015 03:04 KwarK wrote:
It was a fuckup of colossal proportions. Like imagine if you're a police officer and you volunteer to go to a school to do a talk about your job and you accidentally shoot a bunch of the kids because you thought they might be ISIS. That's how bad those sailors fucked up on their day at work. That police officer would not be getting told "don't worry, these things happen" and getting a medal at the end of the year.
The actual H.W. Bush quote was "I'm not an apologize for America kind of guy", so yeah pretty fucked up. Imagine Putin saying this to the Dutch after MH17.
Except MH17 wasn't shot down by Russians in Russian uniform (as far as we know) acting under the authority of the Russian state.
I could go down to the lab downstairs and gas all the students by triggering the fire suppression systems to displace all the oxygen after locking them in and still be better at my job than those sailors. Hell, the German pilot who flew his plane into the side of a mountain deliberately was probably still better at his job than those sailors. I get that in a world filled with idiots these things can happen in a perfect storm of idiocy but the arrogance of the American response to it amazes me. No "holy shit, our bad, this is what we're going to do to make sure we don't accidentally murder hundreds of people again". Just attempts to shift the blame to the victims with a "what are you gonna do about it, we're a superpower" attitude.
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On December 17 2015 02:43 xDaunt wrote:
Off the top of my head, Hillary fucked up on:
Russia
Libya
Syria (twice)
Iraq
I'm sure that Obama was calling the shots on a lot of these screw ups, but it's going to be nearly impossible for her to separate herself from Obama's foreign policy.
Lemme guess one of those is still Benghazi? Despite investigations finding 0 fault and it now being on record that it was nothing but a witch hunt?
Russia is what? The Crimea? I fault Europe for being utter pussies on that and not America. Its our backyard and we should have acted.
Libya. Wasn't France the driving power behind that? But yes this at least bears some fault on America.
What else is there about Syria. The line in the sand? First Republicans are pissed Obama wages war without consent. Then when he asks for it they say no and blame him for not taking action himself. Make up your damn mind.
Iraq. Wasn't that Bush? All Obama has done is carried out the withdraw put on paper by Bush and requested by the Iraqi government themselves. They don't want you there anymore and the population is war weary and doesn't want to go back either.
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United States43866 Posts
Sorry, who exactly thinks the last few years have been good for Russia? They've pissed off their neighbours, collapsed their economy and cut themselves off from foreign investment, tech and capital.
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But Kwark, they are beating the US and the EU. They are not doing exactly what we want, when we want. That is losing for the US, since we are the super power and birthplace of freedom. How can we export freedom if we are losing?
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On December 17 2015 03:25 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2015 03:13 Nyxisto wrote:On December 17 2015 03:04 KwarK wrote:
It was a fuckup of colossal proportions. Like imagine if you're a police officer and you volunteer to go to a school to do a talk about your job and you accidentally shoot a bunch of the kids because you thought they might be ISIS. That's how bad those sailors fucked up on their day at work. That police officer would not be getting told "don't worry, these things happen" and getting a medal at the end of the year.
The actual H.W. Bush quote was "I'm not an apologize for America kind of guy", so yeah pretty fucked up. Imagine Putin saying this to the Dutch after MH17. Except MH17 wasn't shot down by Russians in Russian uniform (as far as we know) acting under the authority of the Russian state. I could go down to the lab downstairs and gas all the students by triggering the fire suppression systems to displace all the oxygen after locking them in and still be better at my job than those sailors. Hell, the German pilot who flew his plane into the side of a mountain deliberately was probably still better at his job than those sailors. I get that in a world filled with idiots these things can happen in a perfect storm of idiocy but the arrogance of the American response to it amazes me. No "holy shit, our bad, this is what we're going to do to make sure we don't accidentally murder hundreds of people again". Just attempts to shift the blame to the victims with a "what are you gonna do about it, we're a superpower" attitude.
Criminally negligent manslaughter id probablly apologize
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On December 17 2015 03:29 KwarK wrote:
Sorry, who exactly thinks the last few years have been good for Russia? They've pissed off their neighbours, collapsed their economy and cut themselves off from foreign investment, tech and capital.
Russia's advancements in the global political scene has only stretched their already limited resources but above all that hemorrhaging they are displaying strength and the people who are afraid of this crippled Russia are all about displays without any consideration for the underlying system.
You know, just like all that voodoo economics they love.
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On December 17 2015 03:26 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2015 02:43 xDaunt wrote:
Off the top of my head, Hillary fucked up on:
Russia
Libya
Syria (twice)
Iraq
I'm sure that Obama was calling the shots on a lot of these screw ups, but it's going to be nearly impossible for her to separate herself from Obama's foreign policy. Lemme guess one of those is still Benghazi? Despite investigations finding 0 fault and it now being on record that it was nothing but a witch hunt? Russia is what? The Crimea? I fault Europe for being utter pussies on that and not America. Its our backyard and we should have acted. Libya. Wasn't France the driving power behind that? But yes this at least bears some fault on America. What else is there about Syria. The line in the sand? First Republicans are pissed Obama wages war without consent. Then when he asks for it they say no and blame him for not taking action himself. Make up your damn mind. Iraq. Wasn't that Bush? All Obama has done is carried out the withdraw put on paper by Bush and requested by the Iraqi government themselves. They don't want you there anymore and the population is war weary and doesn't want to go back either.
Russia -- The whole reset thing. Talking about a colossal error in judgment.
Libya -- This is self-explanatory. Qaddafi is gone, and a clusterfuck remains.
Syria -- First, Hillary propped up Assad (I'd forgotten about this until reminded last night). Then, Hillary pulled out the rug from under him by supporting his overthrow and then failing to throw sufficient support behind a suitable replacement. It's unclear to what extent Hillary was involved in the decisionmaking at the early stages of the Syrian Civil War, but it doesn't matter for political purposes. Any of Obama's failings will be hung on her.
Iraq -- Prematurely abandoning Iraq for political expediency. Again, I bet this was Obama's call, but she is still going to eat this one.
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EPT
