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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
this is the kind of stuff that obama pulls that really grinds my gears. i was conceived and born in the state of pennsylvania. i didnt come from anywhere else, obama. i came from here. dont tell me that shit. and before anyone says its just the white house twitter not necessarily obama, the man has spoken that exact line before. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
On May 11 2013 05:31 DeepElemBlues wrote: https://twitter.com/whitehouse/status/332235084809768962 this is the kind of stuff that obama pulls that really grinds my gears. i was conceived and born in the state of pennsylvania. i didnt come from anywhere else, obama. i came from here. dont tell me that shit. and before anyone says its just the white house twitter not necessarily obama, the man has spoken that exact line before. whereas your great great great grandparents weren't conceived in PA, stop trying to make mountains out of a mole hill. | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
On May 11 2013 05:33 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: whereas your great great great grandparents weren't conceived in PA, stop trying to make mountains out of a mole hill. no but they were conceived in the USA my first ancestor to step foot on american soil did so in 1820 native americans didnt come from here either, they came from kamchatka and eastern siberia all it is is marginalization of opponents on a political issue through a race-based put down as if we dont have the right to oppose immigration because we're the descendants of immigrants its not a molehill its classic obama divide and antagonize strategy, shortsighted, crass, and vulgar. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
On May 11 2013 05:40 DeepElemBlues wrote: no but they were conceived in the USA my first ancestor to step foot on american soil did so in 1820 native americans didnt come from here either, they came from kamchatka and eastern siberia all it is is marginalization of opponents on a political issue through a race-based put down as if we dont have the right to oppose immigration because we're the descendants of immigrants its not a molehill its classic obama divide and antagonize strategy, shortsighted, crass, and vulgar. Oh for fuck sake either describe your family tree via a tweet or don't it that's simple. | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
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Sermokala
United States14047 Posts
On May 11 2013 06:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote: Didn't Native Americans, ultimately, come from somewhere else as well? Hahaha oh shit I guess you're right. | ||
KwarK
United States43255 Posts
On May 11 2013 06:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote: Didn't Native Americans, ultimately, come from somewhere else as well? Yeah but that was longer ago and therefore doesn't count. Even arguing against Obama causes people to think about issues of nativeness and so forth and if your conclusion is "I was born here, I grew up here, I'm a native" then that's still progress in terms of the immigration debate. | ||
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DannyJ
United States5110 Posts
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On May 11 2013 06:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote: Didn't Native Americans, ultimately, come from somewhere else as well? Well, American Indians (for lack of a better term) aren't technically Native Americans. There are no "real" Native Americans. | ||
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Kimaker
United States2131 Posts
All hail the Native Nothing! Let's face it. It's about the cultural "group-think" that develops amongst a people who begin to think of themselves as separate. Geography plays a part in that as it creates a physical barrier which ALLOWS for the social barriers (different behaviors) to develop in isolation, creating the unique nucleus of a "culture". If your group has power in a region, and a cultural development heavily influenced by that region over a period of time making it unique, I'd say you have claim to that land. Of course, the result is, multiple peoples can have a claim to the same piece of land, but then it comes down to which group can enforce their claim. So...there certainly are "real" Native Americans. Just as creatures from the planet "Glomphus" would be native to Glomphus since that is where they developed their unique identity as "Glomphites". Hell, most processes like this are even retroactive and rely on the creation of a historically selective "Cultural Mythology" to develop, but in practice, these identities exist. And that's all that matters. | ||
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Zergneedsfood
United States10671 Posts
I wouldn't look into that tweet so much. -3- | ||
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heliusx
United States2306 Posts
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
On May 11 2013 07:58 Kimaker wrote: There are no native Earthlings, since multicellular life didn't exist when the planet formed. This planet rightly belongs to the inanimate and inorganic matter which makes it up. don't jump to conclusions! science.nasa.so/relevant: nasa article: If this idea proves true, then as Van Dover gazes through the submarine's camera at the vents on the floor of the Indian Ocean, she may be seeing both a portrait of life's genesis in Earth's distant past -- and a glimpse of alien life yet to be discovered. david icke: i told you so. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
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Sermokala
United States14047 Posts
On May 11 2013 09:15 aksfjh wrote: "Native Americans" were here when America was formed. They were here during the birth and all the transformations of the United States as a country. That's the line I would draw anyways. I think we can all agree that the term "native american" was made back when no one knew how early human migration worked. Might as well use the same name for classification purpose's so people don't get unnecessarily confused. | ||
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BioNova
United States598 Posts
On May 11 2013 05:52 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Oh for fuck sake either describe your family tree via a tweet or don't it that's simple. Lol damn Stealth. You keep showing emotion in posts I might stop thinking of you as a robot  Sad to say I agree with Deep, just not as deep. The speech is a bit dimissive, hence annoying. I wonder if we can get a speech like that from someone at Wounded Knee. Looks like they are about to go homeless(hyperbole) again. Where's that casino money yo! + Show Spoiler + The property owner is planning on selling the massacre site I literally at a bit of loss where to place this, and I'm tired of waiting on major media, so here goes. Peshawar High Court Rules US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Are Illegal, Comprise War Crimes Source In a remarkable ruling (pdf), the Peshawar High Court has ruled that US drone strikes carried out within Pakistan are illegal, that they are war crimes and that they must be stopped immediately. The court also directed Pakistan’s military to intervene should drones enter Pakistan air space. As described by Alice Ross at The Bureau of Investigative Journalism, this ruling comes in a case brought by the son of one of the tribal elders killed in the March 17, 2011 drone strike that killed as many as 40 innocent elders gathered to discuss mineral rights: The judgment applies to a lengthy case against the CIA brought by the Foundation for Fundamental Rights on behalf of Noor Khan, a tribesman whose father was among dozens of civilians killed in a drone strike on a gathering of tribal elders on March 17 2011. Last year, Noor Khan also attempted to bring legal action against the UK government for providing information that could lead to deaths in drone strikes, in a case backed by legal charity Reprieve. The attempt was refused but he is appealing. Lawyer Shahzad Akbar, who argued the Peshawar case, said: ‘It is a landmark judgment: drone victims in Waziristan will now get some justice after a long wait. This ruling will also prove to be a test for the new government as if drones continue and government fails to act, it will run the risk of contempt of court.’ [snip] After that lengthy list of petitions, the decision launches immediately into a description of the situation, pulling no punches as it does so. It starts with a stunning sentence: The serial killing of local civilians both of North & South Waziristan Agency, adjoining Khyber Pakhtunkhwa Province through drone strikes visibly commenced from the year 2008 which is still continuing unabated. Later, it hits very hard on the process the US has used to claim its drone strikes are legal while decrying the low number of militants killed compared to civilians: The United States through self framed opinion labeled these foreign elements as their enemy. The U.S decision making troika, the President, Pentagon & CIA have joined hands to carryout drone strikes in these areas on spy information to hit & kill these elements, however, the ratio of killing of foreign elements is negligible while local civilians, non-combatants, casualties are shockingly considerable, beside damage caused to the properties of the local population, their households and other moveable properties including cattle heads, in great number, is a painful phenomena. The most shocking, gruesome & goriest side of these ruthless strikes is that the degree of precision is hardly maintained and why the figures, given above, would prove that these are carried out at random and innocent civilians casualties mostly of infant babies, pre-teen & teenage children, women & others including their properties are hundred times greater than those, killed alleged to be militants. Signature strikes in particular are regarded as problems: Mary O Connell in “Unlawful Killing with Combat Drones” based on the case study of Pakistan SSRN, 2004-2009, has clearly pointed out that since a majority of drone strikes in Pakistan fall under “signature strikes”, these would not be proportionate under the Geneva Conventions and thus, is illegal under International Law. The forming of an opinion by the CIA that these strikes target groups of men, who are militants having links with terrorist groups, is based on figment of imagination and till date no tangible, reliable & convincing proof has been furnished to that effect by the U.S Authorities including CIA. Oh my. That paragraph is going to leave a mark on the author of US signature strike policy, John Brennan. There also is reference to the practice of killing first responders: The international observers’ analysis unrebuttably proved that through drone strikes in Pakistan territory residential houses, vehicles, worshippers in mosques, mourners in funeral procession and even rescue personnel have been attacked with brutality. It's one of those stories you read, and then wait for a major network to touch it. Mostly waiting. | ||
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Derez
Netherlands6068 Posts
It names three things: legality under international law, legality under US law, legality under pakistani law. All of them have gotten plenty of attention in the media. Everyone that has been paying attention knows the issues surrounding the legality of drone strikes, the reason that this isn't news is that it doesn't change anything. As far as the awful MSM have been able to dig things up, what is happening in pakistan is technically legal even under pakistani law based on a classified agreement between pakistan and the US. The conflict of sovereignty the court cites is only there as long as the pakistani state had not agreed to drone strikes, but they have. This verdict won't change anything, what might change things are the pakistani elections though, which news media have been paying plenty of attention to, including the possible security implications. (The relationship between pakistan and the US is incredibly complicated: The strike on bin laden for example, was not a violation of sovereignty based on an agreement made with musharraf in 2004 (?) that allowed the US to strike if bin laden was found within pakistan, while at the same time allowing the pakistani's to pretend the agreement didn't exist and to raise hell against the US internally in order not to seem weak.) | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
a positive feedback loop will inevitably leads to instability and system collapse if left unchecked. it is destabilizing and detrimental to democracy. A young Yemeni writer on the impact and morality of drone-bombing his country Unfortunately, liberal voices in the United States are largely ignoring, if not condoning, civilian deaths and extrajudicial killings in Yemen — including the assassination of three American citizens in September 2011, including a 16-year-old. During George W. Bush's presidency, the rage would have been tremendous. But today there is little outcry, even though what is happening is in many ways an escalation of Mr. Bush's policies. | ||
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farvacola
United States18839 Posts
A group of bankers have just dumped two more problems on the Federal Reserve's plate. The Federal Advisory Council, made up of 12 bankers who meet quarterly to advise the central bank, warned that farmland prices are inflating "a bubble" and growth in student-loan debt has "parallels to the housing crisis," which was the primary cause of the Great Recession in the U.S. Their alarm comes at a time when financial heavyweights on the Federal Open Market Committee, the Federal Reserve's policy-making arm, are debating whether the benefits created by their monthly purchases of $85 billion in bonds outweigh the risk of financial instability. Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke has argued time and again that the program is essential to the economic recovery, but others are less convinced. Fed Governor Jeremy Stein and Kansas City Fed President Esther George have raised concerns the extended period of low interest rates is increasing the risk of asset bubbles. "Agricultural land prices are veering further from what makes sense," noted the minutes of the FAC's Feb. 8 gathering, according to documents obtained by Bloomberg news service through Freedom of Information Act requests. "Members believe the run-up in agriculture land prices is a bubble resulting from persistently low interest rates." As for student loans, recent growth has pushed debt levels to nearly $1 trillion, meaning it "now exceeds credit-card outstandings and has parallels to the housing crisis," the council said after its Feb. 3, 2012, meeting. The bankers told the FOMC that student lending exhibited characteristics similar to those seen in the housing crisis, including "significant growth of subsidized lending in pursuit of a social good" — in this case, higher education rather than expanded home ownership. Just as the mortgage lending boom pushed home prices upward, student loan lending has put upward pressure on tuition. The bankers said both examples showed a "lack of underwriting discipline." Bernanke has dismissed parallels between student lending and the subprime mortgage crisis. "I don't think it's a financial stability issue to the same extent that, say, mortgage debt was in the last crisis because most of it is held not by financial institutions but by the federal government," Bernanke told a Bloomberg reporter on Aug. 7. After the Fed first lowered its target interest rate to near zero in December 2008, the central bank promised to keep it at that level until the unemployment rate — currently at 7.5%, drops to 6.5% or the annual inflation rate rises above 2%. The Fed has also launched three rounds of bond purchases, called quantitative easing, which have pushed its balance sheet to a record $3.3 trillion as of May 1. The QE spending's impact on farmland prices is being documented by regional Fed banks, particularly across the Midwest's corn belt. The Chicago Fed said the value of irrigated cropland in its district rose 16% in 2012, while the Kansas City Fed reported a 30% jump in the same period. "Investors who are seeking a positive return on their funds have shied away from bond markets," the council said, according to a Bloomberg story. Instead, they opted for real estate "as both a hedge against inflation and a means of achieving better than the negative real return associated with fixed-income securities." Increases in land prices have continued even as commodity prices have weakened. Since hitting a record high in March 2011, the S&P GSCI agriculture index, a broad measure of price pressures on commodities, has fallen 25%. The FAC said it supports the central bank's monetary policy at their February meeting, noting that the recoveries in the housing and auto sectors have been "especially encouraging." Yet, there have been "collateral consequences" of the current policy; the low-interest environment has pushed "many to seek higher returns by accepting greater interest rate or credit risk," the FAC's minutes said. "As the period of low rates is extended, these pressures have increased." Bankers: College debt bubble mimics housing bubble | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
IRS scandal possibly gets deeper... | ||
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