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Having had a night of thought, I think Trump actually did a lot worse than I thought yesterday. Of course, I don't know how much his gaffs are going to hurt him, but there were a couple of moments where he really didn't look good.
1. Obviously the moment that he fucked up by dragging Carly's "face" into it was from before the debate, but Carly Fiorina really hit it home, and his answer was to just patronize her a bit more. He didn't own up to his comment, but tried to make it as if he never said it. It seems like a really bad move to try to gloss it over instead of apologizing for the insult. If his unfavourables with women were maybe dipping down, I expect them to be back in the stratosphere after this.
2. I think he really missed the ball with his answer about his lack of expertise on foreign policy. Instead of facing the issue head on, he tried to engage one of the hosts in a conversation to deflect the topic. Like. Wtf. Engage the other candidates, but trying to finnagle an endorsement out of the hosts seems like such a faux pas that I can't believe he went there... and then the bit about the list of Arabic names? It just seemed to come out of nowhere, and do nothing except illustrate his lack of content. Especially as the issue is pretty easy to deal with. Just point out that being the president is a completely unique job and that everybody on the stage has different strengths. Emphasise his years of experience leading big operations, and then assure everybody that he will not only study up on foreign policy, but will surround himself with a team of experts. He tried to do that at the end, but I feel it was too little, too late, after a long bit of waffling around the question in the weirdest of manners.
3. Vaccinations and autism. He should just have denied that hard instead of coming up with the completely absurd blurb about the baby that got sick from a vaccine and then blam, autism. Now most of the negative points on this part go to Ben Carson, who managed to fail hard on a medical issue (like.. wtf), but the fact remains that Trump confirming his complete anti-science stance can't possibly help him (can it?)
4. He reaffirmed how much of an asshole he was by lashing out at Rand Paul. Bringing up poll numbers to shut Paul up is yet another low blow in a sequence of low blows. You can call this Trump just being Trump, but I still believe that at some point he is going to have to stop acting like an 8-year old bully, because it might be entertaining, but nobody wants said 8-yo bully as their president.
As for Carson, I can't believe how bad that first answer was. Trying to be all buddy-buddy with Trump instead of just shutting that down hard and making a point of his own. It was so easy to do, too. Just say something like: "There is absolutely no correlation between vaccinations and autism. Not only has the science shown that, but the original evidence to the contrary was fraudulent. The science is incontrovertible on this matter." and then lead into whatever other point he wants to make, such as freedom of choice to be anti-vaxx on religious reasons or whatever. He could have started off with a joke to break the ice and establish his authority with a "Thank you for showing the good sense to consult with a medical doctor on medical issues". But his actual answer was just unbelievably weak on a point he should have been able to score a home run on.
I am still grumpy that Carson didn't straight up say vaccinations are amazing and everyone should get them. I don't know what voting block they are going after by saying that vaccinations should be optional if you want your kids to go to public school. Kids are not allowed to bring peanuts to school but not vaccinating your kids is ok.
On September 17 2015 23:00 Plansix wrote: I am still grumpy that Carson didn't straight up say vaccinations are amazing and everyone should get them. I don't know what voting block they are going after by saying that vaccinations should be optional if you want your kids to go to public school. Kids are not allowed to bring peanuts to school but not vaccinating your kids is ok.
The voting block that wins you primaries but costs you general elections. You know, the crazy people.
How is it okay that our nation's potential leaders can get on a stage in front of the nation and say so many factually-incorrect things?
Speaking mostly of vaccinations: something created, tested, and scrutinized over half a century's time through world-wide use and peer-review. But, they're basically BS on everything else as well.
On September 17 2015 23:48 Leporello wrote: How is it okay that our nation's potential leaders can get on a stage in front of the nation and say so many factually-incorrect things?
Speaking mostly of vaccinations: something created, tested, and scrutinized over decades of world-wide use and peer-review. But, they're basically BS on everything else as well.
They have cultivated a voting base that would rather be told their view of the world is correct, rather than have it challenged. The fact that Cruz stated that planned parenthood committed a felony(which has been confirmed by multiple news agencies as false) pretty much shows this. After that he tried to act like PP was a black market for baby organs. The same with the Supreme Court and its rulings. Facts don’t matter, its all about telling people their vision of the world is correct.
Of course the Democrats are guilty of similar things, but the Republicans have raised the bar so high it is in orbit.
On September 17 2015 23:48 Leporello wrote: How is it okay that our nation's potential leaders can get on a stage in front of the nation and say so many factually-incorrect things?
Speaking mostly of vaccinations: something created, tested, and scrutinized over half a century's time through world-wide use and peer-review. But, they're basically BS on everything else as well.
because there's no directed penalty for lying; or effective mechanisms for saying something just isn't true. Personally, I'd like to have some penalties; I want to allow broad latitude of course for debate; but I'd like some limits. Like the limits that might apply in a court of law. I wish people in congress, and people running for president, had to speak under oath when doing so; so the laws against perjury would apply.
What if the debate team had a way to fact check everything said pretty fast, then they called out the candidate on it. That would be nice in a debate eh, one where they get exposed if they go too far into pants on fire territory.
On September 17 2015 22:54 Acrofales wrote: Having had a night of thought, I think Trump actually did a lot worse than I thought yesterday. Of course, I don't know how much his gaffs are going to hurt him, but there were a couple of moments where he really didn't look good.
1. Obviously the moment that he fucked up by dragging Carly's "face" into it was from before the debate, but Carly Fiorina really hit it home, and his answer was to just patronize her a bit more. He didn't own up to his comment, but tried to make it as if he never said it. It seems like a really bad move to try to gloss it over instead of apologizing for the insult. If his unfavourables with women were maybe dipping down, I expect them to be back in the stratosphere after this.
2. I think he really missed the ball with his answer about his lack of expertise on foreign policy. Instead of facing the issue head on, he tried to engage one of the hosts in a conversation to deflect the topic. Like. Wtf. Engage the other candidates, but trying to finnagle an endorsement out of the hosts seems like such a faux pas that I can't believe he went there... and then the bit about the list of Arabic names? It just seemed to come out of nowhere, and do nothing except illustrate his lack of content. Especially as the issue is pretty easy to deal with. Just point out that being the president is a completely unique job and that everybody on the stage has different strengths. Emphasise his years of experience leading big operations, and then assure everybody that he will not only study up on foreign policy, but will surround himself with a team of experts. He tried to do that at the end, but I feel it was too little, too late, after a long bit of waffling around the question in the weirdest of manners.
3. Vaccinations and autism. He should just have denied that hard instead of coming up with the completely absurd blurb about the baby that got sick from a vaccine and then blam, autism. Now most of the negative points on this part go to Ben Carson, who managed to fail hard on a medical issue (like.. wtf), but the fact remains that Trump confirming his complete anti-science stance can't possibly help him (can it?)
4. He reaffirmed how much of an asshole he was by lashing out at Rand Paul. Bringing up poll numbers to shut Paul up is yet another low blow in a sequence of low blows. You can call this Trump just being Trump, but I still believe that at some point he is going to have to stop acting like an 8-year old bully, because it might be entertaining, but nobody wants said 8-yo bully as their president.
As for Carson, I can't believe how bad that first answer was. Trying to be all buddy-buddy with Trump instead of just shutting that down hard and making a point of his own. It was so easy to do, too. Just say something like: "There is absolutely no correlation between vaccinations and autism. Not only has the science shown that, but the original evidence to the contrary was fraudulent. The science is incontrovertible on this matter." and then lead into whatever other point he wants to make, such as freedom of choice to be anti-vaxx on religious reasons or whatever. He could have started off with a joke to break the ice and establish his authority with a "Thank you for showing the good sense to consult with a medical doctor on medical issues". But his actual answer was just unbelievably weak on a point he should have been able to score a home run on.
According to drudge, 315,765 people think he won the debate while only 121,881 think Carly won the debate. So Trump doesn't have much to worry about. Don has the luxury of being able to make more campaign stops, generate more news coverage, gather bigger crowds then carly so Trump had a very low threshold to cross this debate.
Both are web poll and Time has a disclaimer on their poll saying it isn't accurate. If you are going to cite things, be mildly aware of where the numbers come from.
On September 17 2015 22:54 Acrofales wrote: Having had a night of thought, I think Trump actually did a lot worse than I thought yesterday. Of course, I don't know how much his gaffs are going to hurt him, but there were a couple of moments where he really didn't look good.
1. Obviously the moment that he fucked up by dragging Carly's "face" into it was from before the debate, but Carly Fiorina really hit it home, and his answer was to just patronize her a bit more. He didn't own up to his comment, but tried to make it as if he never said it. It seems like a really bad move to try to gloss it over instead of apologizing for the insult. If his unfavourables with women were maybe dipping down, I expect them to be back in the stratosphere after this.
2. I think he really missed the ball with his answer about his lack of expertise on foreign policy. Instead of facing the issue head on, he tried to engage one of the hosts in a conversation to deflect the topic. Like. Wtf. Engage the other candidates, but trying to finnagle an endorsement out of the hosts seems like such a faux pas that I can't believe he went there... and then the bit about the list of Arabic names? It just seemed to come out of nowhere, and do nothing except illustrate his lack of content. Especially as the issue is pretty easy to deal with. Just point out that being the president is a completely unique job and that everybody on the stage has different strengths. Emphasise his years of experience leading big operations, and then assure everybody that he will not only study up on foreign policy, but will surround himself with a team of experts. He tried to do that at the end, but I feel it was too little, too late, after a long bit of waffling around the question in the weirdest of manners.
3. Vaccinations and autism. He should just have denied that hard instead of coming up with the completely absurd blurb about the baby that got sick from a vaccine and then blam, autism. Now most of the negative points on this part go to Ben Carson, who managed to fail hard on a medical issue (like.. wtf), but the fact remains that Trump confirming his complete anti-science stance can't possibly help him (can it?)
4. He reaffirmed how much of an asshole he was by lashing out at Rand Paul. Bringing up poll numbers to shut Paul up is yet another low blow in a sequence of low blows. You can call this Trump just being Trump, but I still believe that at some point he is going to have to stop acting like an 8-year old bully, because it might be entertaining, but nobody wants said 8-yo bully as their president.
As for Carson, I can't believe how bad that first answer was. Trying to be all buddy-buddy with Trump instead of just shutting that down hard and making a point of his own. It was so easy to do, too. Just say something like: "There is absolutely no correlation between vaccinations and autism. Not only has the science shown that, but the original evidence to the contrary was fraudulent. The science is incontrovertible on this matter." and then lead into whatever other point he wants to make, such as freedom of choice to be anti-vaxx on religious reasons or whatever. He could have started off with a joke to break the ice and establish his authority with a "Thank you for showing the good sense to consult with a medical doctor on medical issues". But his actual answer was just unbelievably weak on a point he should have been able to score a home run on.
According to drudge, 315,765 people think he won the debate while only 121,881 think Carly won the debate. So Trump doesn't have much to worry about. Don has the luxury of being able to make more campaign stops, generate more news coverage, gather bigger crowds then carly so Trump had a very low threshold to cross this debate.
Drudge's poll was being constantly linked in /pol/ so I would take their online poll with enough salt to give you a heart attack. I don't think /pol/ is exactly a representative sample of the Republican primary electorate (and someone dedicated there engineering 100K votes would be child's play).
Eh, I don't care about the online polls. The next set of real research polls will tell the story.
As for Trump, I'm not sure that his supporters are really going to change their minds on him after last night. What they saw is what they've already bought into -- warts and all. He's the anti-establishment renegade flying both middle fingers everywhere he goes. His core appeal is his argument that he's incorruptible because he's not beholden to campaign donors. In any other election cycle, this sales pitch wouldn't work.
On September 18 2015 00:15 whatisthisasheep wrote:
On September 17 2015 22:54 Acrofales wrote: Having had a night of thought, I think Trump actually did a lot worse than I thought yesterday. Of course, I don't know how much his gaffs are going to hurt him, but there were a couple of moments where he really didn't look good.
1. Obviously the moment that he fucked up by dragging Carly's "face" into it was from before the debate, but Carly Fiorina really hit it home, and his answer was to just patronize her a bit more. He didn't own up to his comment, but tried to make it as if he never said it. It seems like a really bad move to try to gloss it over instead of apologizing for the insult. If his unfavourables with women were maybe dipping down, I expect them to be back in the stratosphere after this.
2. I think he really missed the ball with his answer about his lack of expertise on foreign policy. Instead of facing the issue head on, he tried to engage one of the hosts in a conversation to deflect the topic. Like. Wtf. Engage the other candidates, but trying to finnagle an endorsement out of the hosts seems like such a faux pas that I can't believe he went there... and then the bit about the list of Arabic names? It just seemed to come out of nowhere, and do nothing except illustrate his lack of content. Especially as the issue is pretty easy to deal with. Just point out that being the president is a completely unique job and that everybody on the stage has different strengths. Emphasise his years of experience leading big operations, and then assure everybody that he will not only study up on foreign policy, but will surround himself with a team of experts. He tried to do that at the end, but I feel it was too little, too late, after a long bit of waffling around the question in the weirdest of manners.
3. Vaccinations and autism. He should just have denied that hard instead of coming up with the completely absurd blurb about the baby that got sick from a vaccine and then blam, autism. Now most of the negative points on this part go to Ben Carson, who managed to fail hard on a medical issue (like.. wtf), but the fact remains that Trump confirming his complete anti-science stance can't possibly help him (can it?)
4. He reaffirmed how much of an asshole he was by lashing out at Rand Paul. Bringing up poll numbers to shut Paul up is yet another low blow in a sequence of low blows. You can call this Trump just being Trump, but I still believe that at some point he is going to have to stop acting like an 8-year old bully, because it might be entertaining, but nobody wants said 8-yo bully as their president.
As for Carson, I can't believe how bad that first answer was. Trying to be all buddy-buddy with Trump instead of just shutting that down hard and making a point of his own. It was so easy to do, too. Just say something like: "There is absolutely no correlation between vaccinations and autism. Not only has the science shown that, but the original evidence to the contrary was fraudulent. The science is incontrovertible on this matter." and then lead into whatever other point he wants to make, such as freedom of choice to be anti-vaxx on religious reasons or whatever. He could have started off with a joke to break the ice and establish his authority with a "Thank you for showing the good sense to consult with a medical doctor on medical issues". But his actual answer was just unbelievably weak on a point he should have been able to score a home run on.
According to drudge, 315,765 people think he won the debate while only 121,881 think Carly won the debate. So Trump doesn't have much to worry about. Don has the luxury of being able to make more campaign stops, generate more news coverage, gather bigger crowds then carly so Trump had a very low threshold to cross this debate.
Drudge's poll was being constantly linked in /pol/ so I would take their online poll with enough salt to give you a heart attack. I don't think /pol/ is exactly a representative sample of the Republican primary electorate (and someone dedicated there engineering 100K votes would be child's play).
It does explain the results of the poll, since Trump firmly hold the Internet Neo-Nazi demographic.
On September 18 2015 00:15 whatisthisasheep wrote:
On September 17 2015 22:54 Acrofales wrote: Having had a night of thought, I think Trump actually did a lot worse than I thought yesterday. Of course, I don't know how much his gaffs are going to hurt him, but there were a couple of moments where he really didn't look good.
1. Obviously the moment that he fucked up by dragging Carly's "face" into it was from before the debate, but Carly Fiorina really hit it home, and his answer was to just patronize her a bit more. He didn't own up to his comment, but tried to make it as if he never said it. It seems like a really bad move to try to gloss it over instead of apologizing for the insult. If his unfavourables with women were maybe dipping down, I expect them to be back in the stratosphere after this.
2. I think he really missed the ball with his answer about his lack of expertise on foreign policy. Instead of facing the issue head on, he tried to engage one of the hosts in a conversation to deflect the topic. Like. Wtf. Engage the other candidates, but trying to finnagle an endorsement out of the hosts seems like such a faux pas that I can't believe he went there... and then the bit about the list of Arabic names? It just seemed to come out of nowhere, and do nothing except illustrate his lack of content. Especially as the issue is pretty easy to deal with. Just point out that being the president is a completely unique job and that everybody on the stage has different strengths. Emphasise his years of experience leading big operations, and then assure everybody that he will not only study up on foreign policy, but will surround himself with a team of experts. He tried to do that at the end, but I feel it was too little, too late, after a long bit of waffling around the question in the weirdest of manners.
3. Vaccinations and autism. He should just have denied that hard instead of coming up with the completely absurd blurb about the baby that got sick from a vaccine and then blam, autism. Now most of the negative points on this part go to Ben Carson, who managed to fail hard on a medical issue (like.. wtf), but the fact remains that Trump confirming his complete anti-science stance can't possibly help him (can it?)
4. He reaffirmed how much of an asshole he was by lashing out at Rand Paul. Bringing up poll numbers to shut Paul up is yet another low blow in a sequence of low blows. You can call this Trump just being Trump, but I still believe that at some point he is going to have to stop acting like an 8-year old bully, because it might be entertaining, but nobody wants said 8-yo bully as their president.
As for Carson, I can't believe how bad that first answer was. Trying to be all buddy-buddy with Trump instead of just shutting that down hard and making a point of his own. It was so easy to do, too. Just say something like: "There is absolutely no correlation between vaccinations and autism. Not only has the science shown that, but the original evidence to the contrary was fraudulent. The science is incontrovertible on this matter." and then lead into whatever other point he wants to make, such as freedom of choice to be anti-vaxx on religious reasons or whatever. He could have started off with a joke to break the ice and establish his authority with a "Thank you for showing the good sense to consult with a medical doctor on medical issues". But his actual answer was just unbelievably weak on a point he should have been able to score a home run on.
According to drudge, 315,765 people think he won the debate while only 121,881 think Carly won the debate. So Trump doesn't have much to worry about. Don has the luxury of being able to make more campaign stops, generate more news coverage, gather bigger crowds then carly so Trump had a very low threshold to cross this debate.
Drudge's poll was being constantly linked in /pol/ so I would take their online poll with enough salt to give you a heart attack. I don't think /pol/ is exactly a representative sample of the Republican primary electorate (and someone dedicated there engineering 100K votes would be child's play).
It does explain the results of the poll, since Trump firmly hold the Internet Neo-Nazi demographic.
I do think the drudge poll is indicative of the whats to come because back in august it showed that 38 percent of people believe that Trump won and his support continued to rise. http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/drudge-poll-donald-trump-wins/2015/08/07/id/666039/ This time 52% of people think he won which is a double digit increase from last drudge poll with over twice as many voters particapating is statistically significant
On September 18 2015 01:58 xDaunt wrote: Eh, I don't care about the online polls. The next set of real research polls will tell the story.
As for Trump, I'm not sure that his supporters are really going to change their minds on him after last night. What they saw is what they've already bought into -- warts and all. He's the anti-establishment renegade flying both middle fingers everywhere he goes. His core appeal is his argument that he's incorruptible because he's not beholden to campaign donors. In any other election cycle, this sales pitch wouldn't work.
It's rare I agree with xDaunt but I do here.
Trump may lose a sliver of support to Carly, but most Trump supporters saw exactly what they expected. If anything, not sticking to his guns on Carly's face probably tarnished his "speaks his mind/truth" medal.
Between Trump, Carson, and Carly you have the majority of Republicans. The polls may float around some but anyone in single digits after the debate is all but done for (save Bush).
Bush's only shot now is if Trump and Carson/Fiorina continue to split their voting blocs and Jeb consolidates everyone else. If it comes down to Trump v Bush I think Trump wins, kind of curious how Conservatives here would vote given that choice on a primary?
Also all the republicans who started one of their responses with "It's probably illegal but,..." That's just gold.
EPT
