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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 2270

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
September 05 2015 23:11 GMT
#45381
A skilled politician should be able to come up with answers that bend around the situation well enough to satisfy multiple groups. It doesn't seem like it should be so hard to find a way to address the Iraq war without being against his brother.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15684 Posts
September 05 2015 23:17 GMT
#45382
On September 06 2015 08:11 zlefin wrote:
A skilled politician should be able to come up with answers that bend around the situation well enough to satisfy multiple groups. It doesn't seem like it should be so hard to find a way to address the Iraq war without being against his brother.


Journalists have been pretty good at getting a good answer, even directly saying: "Iraq: Good idea or bad idea?"

There's no way around that.
killa_robot
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada1884 Posts
September 05 2015 23:32 GMT
#45383
On September 06 2015 08:17 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2015 08:11 zlefin wrote:
A skilled politician should be able to come up with answers that bend around the situation well enough to satisfy multiple groups. It doesn't seem like it should be so hard to find a way to address the Iraq war without being against his brother.


Journalists have been pretty good at getting a good answer, even directly saying: "Iraq: Good idea or bad idea?"

There's no way around that.


Literally all a politician has to do is say it's too complicated to say it was just a good or bad idea, and then delve a little into said complexities.
Yoav
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1874 Posts
September 05 2015 23:33 GMT
#45384
On September 06 2015 08:17 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2015 08:11 zlefin wrote:
A skilled politician should be able to come up with answers that bend around the situation well enough to satisfy multiple groups. It doesn't seem like it should be so hard to find a way to address the Iraq war without being against his brother.


Journalists have been pretty good at getting a good answer, even directly saying: "Iraq: Good idea or bad idea?"

There's no way around that.


Sure there is. Pretty much everybody else said "Bad idea with what we know now, made sense at the time." (Like my High School girlfriend.)
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
September 06 2015 07:40 GMT
#45385
Carson was a brilliant neurosurgeon, and it being easier to become a doctor/ get into harvard or whatever doesn't take away from that really. Hiwever, it's important to note that brine a brilliant surgeon many largely be due to sheer mechanical skill-- I don't know how well versed he was in theory or knowledge. I can't make a judgement about that really because I don't know he context of his accomplisenta in the surgical field.

And it's clear that whatever he brought to surgery doesn't really translate too much to politics or even other branches of science. He's the shitty republican version of Neil de grasse tyson.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
September 06 2015 07:50 GMT
#45386
On September 06 2015 06:40 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2015 06:31 Leporello wrote:
Carson's appeal, imo, is being a flag of intellectual-authority from a political camp that provided us with the likes of Sarah Palin, even though his intellectual-authority is completely irrelevant to politics.

It's also Jeb Bush's appeal, I guess. Although him being the "smart Bush" is kind of... well, setting the bar pretty low.

Some conservatives are no doubt starved for this kind of respectability. And yet, who do the majority of conservative's flock to? Trump. The guy who "tells it like it is". They don't want someone who knows how to keep their mouth shut, or who can tout intellectual credentials, they want an internet troll for president.


Jeb has really not done the best job of appearing intelligent. He's a poor speaker, not very articulate, and never seems to actually have confidence in anything he's saying. He always just looks like he's nervously trying to convey ideas his staffers tell him to.

You say he's a poor speaker, but have you heard him in his second tongue? He gave quite a passionate speech a couple weeks ago with confidence and vigor. I agree with you when he gives speeches in English.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
coverpunch
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2093 Posts
September 06 2015 12:14 GMT
#45387
On September 06 2015 00:41 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2015 00:24 coverpunch wrote:
On September 06 2015 00:06 cLutZ wrote:
On September 05 2015 21:03 coverpunch wrote:
On September 05 2015 17:08 Cowboy64 wrote:
Then again, I think Hillary is a horribly weak candidate who will almost certainly lose against whoever she runs against, so I'm not really taking electability into account here.


We should really talk about this a bit more. Is Hillary a soft candidate? I'm pretty surprised by this statement, frankly.

Sure, Hillary's showing a strange ineptitude in dodging the email server questions, which is in the same vein as Chris Christie unable to shake the bridge thing. Shaking off political bullshit like that is Presidential Politics 101. If she thinks this is bad, one has to shudder at what would happen if she had another Snowden. In retrospect, you have to admire Obama that Snowden was a political baneling bust in the making and he got through it all like MarineKing used to split marines. If he had taken it on the chin, things might have gotten REALLY ugly for him.

But she seems to be doing the right things politically. She's quietly gathering a large coalition of influential Democrats and party bosses on her side and building a warchest. I think something like half of Congressional Democrats have endorsed or are planning to endorse her already. None of the Republican candidates has anywhere near that kind of party support. Sanders has lots of populist support but virtually no national and party support, so he's ultimately getting into a car with no engine or wheels to win this race (i.e. it won't happen unless Hillary crashes herself out of it).

In the end, I'd put it this way: Hillary ain't Bill, but I disagree strongly that she's a "horribly weak candidate" and I think it's actually more likely that she'd beat most of the GOP candidates like a drum. Of course, this is assuming she eventually shakes the email server thing and doesn't find herself instead dogged with more scandals that weigh her down.

I sort of agree, but think you really failed to mention the reason for all this, and really the premise of her campaign: First Woman President. Without that she is Jeb Bush with scandals. If Obama hung it up after one term, this Hillary would have lost to Romney, himself a mid level candidate.

She can probably win using a similar strategy to the one Mitch McConnell employed in his last election of outspending in the primary and using 'incumbency' to try and wait for a meltdown. It can work, but guys like Rubio, Cruz, and Paul are senators today because its a mediocre strategy.

A valid point, but I was trying to get at the point that she is a skilled politician, at least the coalition building and deal making parts of the job. I'm surprised at how often this seems to be underrated or overlooked these days, particularly since they were glaring flaws of the Bush and Obama presidencies.

But she does seem to suck at the scandal shaking part of the job, which i addressed, and it seems to be fair to call her a mediocre leader at best. And it is a good point to bring up that her most prominent selling point is playing identity politics rather than substantive policy.

On the other hand, Trump is all policy and everyone outside of his rabid supporters thinks he's crazy or a moron or both.

More seriously, I would deflect by saying it is a bit premature for Hillary to be talking details. She is a known quantity as a center left candidate and it is better for her to tread softly with the nomination basically in hand rather than play the mirror image of the GOP drunken race of lurching to the right to win the nomination and then trying to stumble back to the center to win general support.

We actually have no evidence that Hillary is skilled in the ways you say. Her main initiative as first lady failed, she was a backbencher with no real accomplishments in the Senate, and her Secretary of State term contains no significant deals.

Well, she does have skill because I mentioned that she's already got about half of Congressional Democrats endorsing her in this race, on top of a wide bulk of the party as a whole. The nomination is about uniting the party around a single candidate and she's wrapped up the Democrats nicely already. It contrasts hugely with any of the Republican candidates who have little more than sparse party endorsements and Sanders who has no national support.

As rebuttals to your dismissals, the First Lady has no power, she was indeed a so-so Senator at best, and her Sec State record is also pretty sparse of accomplishments. They were more resume fillers than anything else, but she does have the resume of being on powerful and influential Senate committees as well as not having any huge screw-ups in her tenure as Secretary of State (unless you count Benghazi, which makes you a Republican anyways).

It's pretty notable that the foreign policy achievements Clinton would be associated with have been undone or reversed. She did help pull together the NATO coalition to oust Qaddafi from Libya, but you could mar it by saying the US did the vast majority of the work and the US isn't proud of what Libya has become. Clinton was also part of the team that helped impose new sanctions on Iran in 2010, although again, that has been pretty much scrapped in favor of the deal on the table now. Clinton was also key to the whole "Russia reset" thing, but yet again, nobody's really holding much water with that any more. I'm not sure you could say these things were her fault or that these reversals prove she (or Obama) is a bad leader.

One funny thing is Clinton's stance on trade. She is big on trade deals and she was apparently important in pushing through the deals to finalize free trade agreements with Korea, Panama, and Colombia. She's been a big advocate of the TPP. But this has gone sideways on her since it is Democrats who now strongly oppose any new free trade deals, particularly with Vietnam (low cost labor) and Japan (competes with too many unionized industries).
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
September 06 2015 14:36 GMT
#45388
On September 06 2015 08:17 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2015 08:11 zlefin wrote:
A skilled politician should be able to come up with answers that bend around the situation well enough to satisfy multiple groups. It doesn't seem like it should be so hard to find a way to address the Iraq war without being against his brother.


Journalists have been pretty good at getting a good answer, even directly saying: "Iraq: Good idea or bad idea?"

There's no way around that.


Jeb Bush got hit with that I think. His response was, repeatedly, "Based on the information at the time, it was a good idea. Based on the information now, it wasn't."

Well the question the journalist asked him was, "Would you invade Iraq?", but the gist is the same.

Like literally, no matter how the reporter rephrased the question, that was his answer over and over.
Yargh
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-06 15:31:16
September 06 2015 15:03 GMT
#45389
A government-controlled industry group targeted popular food bloggers, major publications and a celebrity chef as part of its sweeping effort to combat a perceived threat from an egg-replacement startup backed by some of Silicon Valley’s biggest names, the Guardian can reveal.

The lobbyists’ media counterattack, in possible violation of US department of agriculture rules, was coordinated by a marketing arm of the egg industry called the American Egg Board (AEB). It arose after AEB chief executive Joanne Ivy identified the fledgling technology startup Hampton Creek as a “crisis and major threat to the future” of the $5.5bn-a-year egg market.

A detailed review of emails, sent from inside the AEB and obtained by the Guardian, shows that the lobbyist’s anti-Hampton Creek campaign sought to:
  • Pay food bloggers as much as $2,500 a post to write online recipes and stories about the virtue of eggs that repeated the egg lobby group’s “key messages”

  • Confront Andrew Zimmern, who had featured Hampton Creek on his popular Travel Channel show Bizarre Foods and praised the company in a blog post characterized by top egg board executives as a “love letter”

  • Target publications including Forbes and Buzzfeed that had written broadly positive articles about a Silicon Valley darling
    Unsuccessfully tried to recruit both the animal rights and autism activist Temple Grandin and the bestselling author and blogger Ree Drummond to publicly support the egg industry

  • Buy Google advertisements to show AEB-sponsored content when people searched for Hampton Creek or its founder Josh Tetrick

The scale of the campaign – dubbed “Beyond Eggs” after Hampton Creek’s original company name – shows the lengths to which a federally-appointed, industry-funded marketing group will go to squash a relatively small Silicon Valley startup, from enlisting a high-powered public relations firm to buying off unwitting bloggers.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
coverpunch
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2093 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-06 15:20:29
September 06 2015 15:14 GMT
#45390
More recently, Hampton Creek has in fact faced its own PR woes with allegations of suspect science and hazardous work environments. And last month the US Food and Drug Administration warned the California startup that the name of its flagship product, Just Mayo, was misleading and and should be renamed, insisting an egg-less product should not be described as mayonnaise.

Sheesh, who knew the egg business got so fierce and dirty.

And then this strange bit:

In 2013, Google bought ads against Hampton Creek’s name and other search terms including Tetrick’s name and his chief product, Just Mayo, so that links to egg board-sponsored talking points about industrial farming would pop up alongside links to Hampton Creek.

This has to be mistyped, right? The AEB bought Google ad-words rather than Google buying ads, I think...

EDIT:

Searching this company on Google led to these hilarious Business Insider headlines.

August 5, 2015: Sex, lies, and eggless mayonnaise: Something is rotten at food startup Hampton Creek, former employees say

September 3, 2015: Eggless-mayo startup Hampton Creek claims government agencies are behind a mayo conspiracy

They both read like hyperbole and like someone paid for their headline...from the same writer!
coverpunch
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2093 Posts
September 06 2015 16:31 GMT
#45391
On September 06 2015 23:36 JinDesu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2015 08:17 Mohdoo wrote:
On September 06 2015 08:11 zlefin wrote:
A skilled politician should be able to come up with answers that bend around the situation well enough to satisfy multiple groups. It doesn't seem like it should be so hard to find a way to address the Iraq war without being against his brother.


Journalists have been pretty good at getting a good answer, even directly saying: "Iraq: Good idea or bad idea?"

There's no way around that.


Jeb Bush got hit with that I think. His response was, repeatedly, "Based on the information at the time, it was a good idea. Based on the information now, it wasn't."

Well the question the journalist asked him was, "Would you invade Iraq?", but the gist is the same.

Like literally, no matter how the reporter rephrased the question, that was his answer over and over.

I will point out that hypotheticals rehashing history are loaded questions. Any answer you give can only upset people or it can lead to impossible follow-up questions. There's no correct answer that satisfies people and that's by design.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42640 Posts
September 06 2015 17:02 GMT
#45392
On September 07 2015 01:31 coverpunch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2015 23:36 JinDesu wrote:
On September 06 2015 08:17 Mohdoo wrote:
On September 06 2015 08:11 zlefin wrote:
A skilled politician should be able to come up with answers that bend around the situation well enough to satisfy multiple groups. It doesn't seem like it should be so hard to find a way to address the Iraq war without being against his brother.


Journalists have been pretty good at getting a good answer, even directly saying: "Iraq: Good idea or bad idea?"

There's no way around that.


Jeb Bush got hit with that I think. His response was, repeatedly, "Based on the information at the time, it was a good idea. Based on the information now, it wasn't."

Well the question the journalist asked him was, "Would you invade Iraq?", but the gist is the same.

Like literally, no matter how the reporter rephrased the question, that was his answer over and over.

I will point out that hypotheticals rehashing history are loaded questions. Any answer you give can only upset people or it can lead to impossible follow-up questions. There's no correct answer that satisfies people and that's by design.

Not really. He could say "Clearly the situation in the Middle East and in North Africa has gotten less stable, not more. The quality of life of the people there has gotten worse and Islamic extremism has never been stronger. It was a mistake to intervene and I think everyone now recognizes that. We should focus on what we can do to learn from that mistake and to fix the situation."

It's not a controversial point that it was a failure.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
September 06 2015 17:16 GMT
#45393
Bernie Sanders has a solid lead over Hillary Clinton among New Hampshire Democrats five months ahead of the Granite State's first-in-the-nation primary, and the Vermont senator is also gaining on Clinton in Iowa, according to NBC News/Marist polls released on Sunday.

In New Hampshire, Sanders had the support of 49 percent of Democrats when Joe Biden's name was not included as a choice, with Clinton in second with 38 percent support.

Sanders maintained his lead when Biden was included as a choice, with 41 percent picking Sanders, 32 percent choosing Clinton and 16 percent picking Biden, who is still weighing whether or not to enter the race.

None of the other Democratic candidates — former Maryland Gov. Martin O'Malley, former Rhode Island Gov. Lincoln Chafee and former Virginia Sen. Jim Webb — attracted more than 1 percent support in the poll.

On the Republican side, Donald Trump leads at 28 percent. Ohio Gov. John Kasich, who has focused his campaign on New Hampshire, took second with 12 percent support, with Ben Carson in third with 11 percent support.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
September 06 2015 19:02 GMT
#45394
Colin Powell came out in favor of the Iran deal
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 06 2015 19:07 GMT
#45395
On September 07 2015 04:02 ticklishmusic wrote:
Colin Powell came out in favor of the Iran deal

Colin Powell is a pragmatic, realistic man, so of course he did.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
heliusx
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States2306 Posts
September 06 2015 19:15 GMT
#45396
Very realistic.

[image loading]
dude bro.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
September 06 2015 20:06 GMT
#45397
Fiat Chrysler Automobiles (FCA) boss Sergio Marchionne said on Sunday that seeking a tie-up with General Motors at was a “high priority” and such a deal would also be the best strategic option for its U.S. rival.

GM’s board rebuffed a merger proposal from the Italian-American carmaker earlier this year. That has not stopped Marchionne from wooing his bigger competitor as he seeks to reduce the number of players in the industry and share the prohibitive costs of building greener and more intelligent cars.

“That discussion remains a high priority for FCA,” he told journalists on the sidelines of the Formula One Italian Grand Prix in Monza, northern Italy.


fortune.com

I admire the ability of this company to explicitly state that its goal is to violate US Antitrust laws.
Freeeeeeedom
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
September 06 2015 20:38 GMT
#45398
American service members used in chemical and biological testing have some questions: What exactly were they exposed to? And how is it affecting their health?

Tens of thousands of troops were used in testing conducted by the U.S. military between 1922 and 1975. As one Army scientist explained, the military wanted to learn how to induce symptoms such as "fear, panic, hysteria, and hallucinations" in enemy soldiers. Recruitment was done on a volunteer basis, but the details of the testing and associated risks were often withheld from those who signed up.

Many of the veterans who served as test subjects have since died. But today, those who are still alive are part of a class action lawsuit against the Army. If they're successful, the Army will have to explain to anyone who was used in testing exactly what substances they were given and any known risks. The Army would also have to provide those veterans with health care for any illnesses that result, in whole or in part, from the testing.

The law firm representing the veterans estimates at least 70,000 troops were used in the testing, including World War II veterans exposed to mustard gas, whom NPR reported on earlier this summer.

Bill Blazinski has chronic lymphocytic leukemia, which he thinks may have been caused by the military tests. He was 20 years old when he volunteered in 1968.

"There would be a guaranteed three-day pass every weekend unless you had a test," he says. "There would be no kitchen police duties, no guard duties. And it sounded like a pretty good duty."

What sounded more like a vacation than military duty quickly changed, he says. In one test, doctors said they would inject him with an agent and its antidote back to back.

"We were placed in individual padded cells. And you know the nurse left and I'm looking at this padded wall and I knew it was solid but all of a sudden started fluttering like a flag does up on a flag pole," he recalls.

To learn about what substances made him hallucinate, in 2006, Blazinski requested the original test documents under the Freedom of Information Act. "It showed an experimental antidote for nerve agent poisoning with known side effects, and another drug designed to reverse the effects of the firs," he says."

Researchers kept information about which agents they were administering from test subjects to avoid influencing the test results. A lawyer representing the veterans, Ben Patterson of the law firm Morrison and Foerster, says that's a problem.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
September 06 2015 21:55 GMT
#45399
when iran is more interested in fucking up saudis than america why not deal with them. taht's the bottom line on it really
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44271 Posts
September 06 2015 23:46 GMT
#45400
On September 06 2015 07:03 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2015 06:58 Mohdoo wrote:
On September 06 2015 06:41 Leporello wrote:
His answers on Iraq are laughable, but I don't blame that on his intellect. I blame that on his brother. Iraq is just a no-win situation for him. He has to either throw his own brother under the bus, or take a position that has become so increasingly indefensible. So he looks like either a callous coward, or an idiot. Thanks Georgie!


What I don't get is: Why is it so unthinkable to throw his brother under the bus? It was a huge mistake. It is an unwinnable position to support him. No one will be president who says Iraq was a good idea.

Because if he loses he still has the same family. Dodging the question isn't great, but putting his brother on full blast will come off as opportunistic and phony.


I think there's a happy medium though. He doesn't have to call his brother the worst president ever, per se. He should be able to tactfully find a way to state that he believes his brother made a mistake, and that while he loves his brother and agreed with other political stances GWB had, they're not the same person.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
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