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On July 30 2015 22:49 Plansix wrote:
Seems accurate. A brief discussion of the lack of political will to go after high profile CEO's and employees of banks that causes the crash of 2008. Beyond that, not much else.
Housing is good, people should have it. Cheap housing is good because it prevents people form being desperate and doing things like break into my house.
I think it's because corporations are people. It's possible to punish the corporation for crimes, but since the corporation isn't really a person, it doesn't feel any shame or guilt. Sure, you could charge the corporation huge fines, but that doesn't actually affect the people at the top. They just lay off a few people or raise prices and bam, fine covered. The CEO doesn't ever feel any of the affects.
I know I disagreed with you earlier on digital evidence collection, but I actually like your point that the people responsible need to be held accountable. Holding the corporation accountable doesn't actually do anything.
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On July 31 2015 00:52 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2015 22:49 Plansix wrote:
Seems accurate. A brief discussion of the lack of political will to go after high profile CEO's and employees of banks that causes the crash of 2008. Beyond that, not much else.
Housing is good, people should have it. Cheap housing is good because it prevents people form being desperate and doing things like break into my house. I think it's because corporations are people. It's possible to punish the corporation for crimes, but since the corporation isn't really a person, it doesn't feel any shame or guilt. Sure, you could charge the corporation huge fines, but that doesn't actually affect the people at the top. They just lay off a few people or raise prices and bam, fine covered. The CEO doesn't ever feel any of the affects. I know I disagreed with you earlier on digital evidence collection, but I actually like your point that the people responsible need to be held accountable. Holding the corporation accountable doesn't actually do anything.
Its a large problem with the current system in both EU and the US, that the largest banks/financial institutions are so massive the government agencies made to police them can't do it. And the fact that they are under funded at all times due to partisan politics doesn't help. There are a number of investigators from the Reagan who were interviewed after crisis and they talked about the systematic defunding of their agencies. That the FBI and other groups were told not to focus on white crime. Its sad because it likely wouldn’t even require to many changes to the laws or police powers, just more money and man power. But policing banks and other financial institutions is not a priority of government. And likely won’t be as long as they can dump so much money into campaigning.
You see a lot of the same stuff with the anti-gun that is funded by gun manufacturers. They found it to be way more effective to keep the ATF underfunded and making the backgrounds checks and tracking of illegal fire arms more cumbersome. Even if the laws are in place, its hard to enforce them.
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WASHINGTON — There’s a simple, popular solution that Republican leaders in Congress could grab hold of to get themselves out of their embarrassing public fight over the highway bill, and President Barack Obama could help force them to do it.
That solution is to raise the gas tax, said Rep. Earl Blumenauer (D-Ore.), who explained in an interview with The Huffington Post how the GOP could come around to an idea that is currently heretical to Republican anti-tax purists, including the chairman of the tax-writing Ways and Means Committee, Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.), who has adamantly rejected hiking fuel taxes.
The matter is of increasing urgency because Congress on Thursday is expected to pass the 34th short-term extension of the fund that pays for highway and transit construction across the nation. This would prevent construction projects from shutting down on Saturday, when the previous extension runs out. But the new stopgap is only for three months, leaving lawmakers just until October to craft a long-term measure.
The key question is how to pay for the vital, expensive work of maintaining and building infrastructure. A Senate bill that would cover six years (and is also expected to pass Thursday) only found money to fund three years of the work, mostly by raiding the federal government’s figurative couch cushions for one-time payments, such as selling oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve.
The House didn’t even try for a long-term bill. It passed a five-month plan, then resorted to the three-month version after Republican House leaders couldn’t agree with Republican Senate leaders on the Senate plan.
Source
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On July 31 2015 01:12 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +WASHINGTON — There’s a simple, popular solution that Republican leaders in Congress could grab hold of to get themselves out of their embarrassing public fight over the highway bill, and President Barack Obama could help force them to do it.
That solution is to raise the gas tax, said Rep. Earl Blumenauer (D-Ore.), who explained in an interview with The Huffington Post how the GOP could come around to an idea that is currently heretical to Republican anti-tax purists, including the chairman of the tax-writing Ways and Means Committee, Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.), who has adamantly rejected hiking fuel taxes.
The matter is of increasing urgency because Congress on Thursday is expected to pass the 34th short-term extension of the fund that pays for highway and transit construction across the nation. This would prevent construction projects from shutting down on Saturday, when the previous extension runs out. But the new stopgap is only for three months, leaving lawmakers just until October to craft a long-term measure.
The key question is how to pay for the vital, expensive work of maintaining and building infrastructure. A Senate bill that would cover six years (and is also expected to pass Thursday) only found money to fund three years of the work, mostly by raiding the federal government’s figurative couch cushions for one-time payments, such as selling oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve.
The House didn’t even try for a long-term bill. It passed a five-month plan, then resorted to the three-month version after Republican House leaders couldn’t agree with Republican Senate leaders on the Senate plan. Source
How does the rest of the world fund their infrastructure again?
Oh I know, taxes.
Tobad Republicans think magic pixy dust will also suffice...
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United States42682 Posts
On the other hand gas taxes are crazy regressive. The majority of gas will be burned on a commute, grocery runs and other somewhat mandatory costs. I think the Republicans are on the right side, but for reasons contrary to their normal strategy, whereas the Democrats are on the wrong side.
Democrats should want to do something like slap an additional sales tax on the purchase of new vehicles, which would be even higher for things like luxury vehicles, to cover these costs. That'd fit their ideology neatly enough while allowing the working classes to go to work. Republicans should want gas taxes as high as possible because this kind of flat consumption tax which is, in practice, very regressive is exactly the kind of tax they like. Then they lower capital gains taxes a bit because why not.
Presumably Dems felt this was a tax they could get away with raising and Reps felt like it was one that made sense to oppose but they seem to have lost their strategy books here.
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On July 31 2015 01:10 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2015 00:52 Millitron wrote:On July 30 2015 22:49 Plansix wrote:
Seems accurate. A brief discussion of the lack of political will to go after high profile CEO's and employees of banks that causes the crash of 2008. Beyond that, not much else.
Housing is good, people should have it. Cheap housing is good because it prevents people form being desperate and doing things like break into my house. I think it's because corporations are people. It's possible to punish the corporation for crimes, but since the corporation isn't really a person, it doesn't feel any shame or guilt. Sure, you could charge the corporation huge fines, but that doesn't actually affect the people at the top. They just lay off a few people or raise prices and bam, fine covered. The CEO doesn't ever feel any of the affects. I know I disagreed with you earlier on digital evidence collection, but I actually like your point that the people responsible need to be held accountable. Holding the corporation accountable doesn't actually do anything. Its a large problem with the current system in both EU and the US, that the largest banks/financial institutions are so massive the government agencies made to police them can't do it. And the fact that they are under funded at all times due to partisan politics doesn't help. There are a number of investigators from the Reagan who were interviewed after crisis and they talked about the systematic defunding of their agencies. That the FBI and other groups were told not to focus on white crime. Its sad because it likely wouldn’t even require to many changes to the laws or police powers, just more money and man power. But policing banks and other financial institutions is not a priority of government. And likely won’t be as long as they can dump so much money into campaigning. You see a lot of the same stuff with the anti-gun that is funded by gun manufacturers. They found it to be way more effective to keep the ATF underfunded and making the backgrounds checks and tracking of illegal fire arms more cumbersome. Even if the laws are in place, its hard to enforce them.
Well the ATF is a pretty horrible organization. The controversy section of their Wikipedia page is twice as long as the history section. There's not a single positive event on the page anywhere. Just abuse after abuse after abuse.
Remember when the ATF sold guns to cartels in Mexico?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal
Remember when the ATF lied about Randy Weaver having explosives, machine guns, marijuana, and being a bank robber and the stand-off that followed ended up getting 3 people killed and 2 wounded?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge#ATF_involvement
Remember how the ATF mostly focuses on harassing innocent people for non-crimes, not actually tracking down illegal guns?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Alcohol,_Tobacco,_Firearms_and_Explosives#Controversies
"Based upon these hearings it is apparent that ATF enforcement tactics made possible by current federal firearms laws are constitutionally, legally, and practically reprehensible."
"Evidence received demonstrated that ATF agents tended to concentrate upon collector's items rather than "criminal street guns"
Remember when the ATF tried to ban M855 5.56mm rifle ammunition because "It's armor piercing pistol ammunition", even though it doesn't even meet their own standards for armor piercing pistol ammunition. And if it did, so would practically every rifle round on Earth.
ATF's definition of "Armor piercing pistol ammunition"
+ Show Spoiler + A projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
A full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
M855 is not intended to be fired from a pistol, just because someone made a pistol that uses it doesn't mean M855 was made for pistols. M855 is not made entirely of any of those mentioned substances, nor is its core.
tl;dr, the ATF is scum. All they do is harass people.
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On July 31 2015 01:26 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2015 01:12 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:WASHINGTON — There’s a simple, popular solution that Republican leaders in Congress could grab hold of to get themselves out of their embarrassing public fight over the highway bill, and President Barack Obama could help force them to do it.
That solution is to raise the gas tax, said Rep. Earl Blumenauer (D-Ore.), who explained in an interview with The Huffington Post how the GOP could come around to an idea that is currently heretical to Republican anti-tax purists, including the chairman of the tax-writing Ways and Means Committee, Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.), who has adamantly rejected hiking fuel taxes.
The matter is of increasing urgency because Congress on Thursday is expected to pass the 34th short-term extension of the fund that pays for highway and transit construction across the nation. This would prevent construction projects from shutting down on Saturday, when the previous extension runs out. But the new stopgap is only for three months, leaving lawmakers just until October to craft a long-term measure.
The key question is how to pay for the vital, expensive work of maintaining and building infrastructure. A Senate bill that would cover six years (and is also expected to pass Thursday) only found money to fund three years of the work, mostly by raiding the federal government’s figurative couch cushions for one-time payments, such as selling oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve.
The House didn’t even try for a long-term bill. It passed a five-month plan, then resorted to the three-month version after Republican House leaders couldn’t agree with Republican Senate leaders on the Senate plan. Source How does the rest of the world fund their infrastructure again? Oh I know, taxes. Tobad Republicans think magic pixy dust will also suffice...
They are the party that went to war in Iraq and then cut taxes for the wealth. Engaging in the most expensive activity a nation can do and cutting taxes at the same time. And then trying to protect those tax cuts when they were set to expire while the country is in recovering from a recession and cutting services to pay for the war.
If I had a time machines, I would teleport them all to WW2 America and just let them live there for a couple of week.
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On July 31 2015 01:31 KwarK wrote:
On the other hand gas taxes are crazy regressive. The majority of gas will be burned on a commute, grocery runs and other somewhat mandatory costs. I think the Republicans are on the right side, but for reasons contrary to their normal strategy, whereas the Democrats are on the wrong side.
Democrats should want to do something like slap an additional sales tax on the purchase of new vehicles, which would be even higher for things like luxury vehicles, to cover these costs. That'd fit their ideology neatly enough while allowing the working classes to go to work. Republicans should want gas taxes as high as possible because this kind of flat consumption tax which is, in practice, very regressive is exactly the kind of tax they like. Then they lower capital gains taxes a bit because why not.
Presumably Dems felt this was a tax they could get away with raising and Reps felt like it was one that made sense to oppose but they seem to have lost their strategy books here.
It does not necessarily have to be a gas tax, you are correct in their effect, but any nation with even a hint of infrastructure should have a means in place of funding its maintenance.
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One thing about the gas tax is that it makes sense; usage of gas tends to correlate with usage of roads, so its basically like an easier to administer toll system.
It is regressive though.
One recent issue with it is it doesn't account for electric cars.
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On July 31 2015 01:32 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2015 01:10 Plansix wrote:On July 31 2015 00:52 Millitron wrote:On July 30 2015 22:49 Plansix wrote:
Seems accurate. A brief discussion of the lack of political will to go after high profile CEO's and employees of banks that causes the crash of 2008. Beyond that, not much else.
Housing is good, people should have it. Cheap housing is good because it prevents people form being desperate and doing things like break into my house. I think it's because corporations are people. It's possible to punish the corporation for crimes, but since the corporation isn't really a person, it doesn't feel any shame or guilt. Sure, you could charge the corporation huge fines, but that doesn't actually affect the people at the top. They just lay off a few people or raise prices and bam, fine covered. The CEO doesn't ever feel any of the affects. I know I disagreed with you earlier on digital evidence collection, but I actually like your point that the people responsible need to be held accountable. Holding the corporation accountable doesn't actually do anything. Its a large problem with the current system in both EU and the US, that the largest banks/financial institutions are so massive the government agencies made to police them can't do it. And the fact that they are under funded at all times due to partisan politics doesn't help. There are a number of investigators from the Reagan who were interviewed after crisis and they talked about the systematic defunding of their agencies. That the FBI and other groups were told not to focus on white crime. Its sad because it likely wouldn’t even require to many changes to the laws or police powers, just more money and man power. But policing banks and other financial institutions is not a priority of government. And likely won’t be as long as they can dump so much money into campaigning. You see a lot of the same stuff with the anti-gun that is funded by gun manufacturers. They found it to be way more effective to keep the ATF underfunded and making the backgrounds checks and tracking of illegal fire arms more cumbersome. Even if the laws are in place, its hard to enforce them. Well the ATF is a pretty horrible organization. The controversy section of their Wikipedia page is twice as long as the history section. There's not a single positive event on the page anywhere. Just abuse after abuse after abuse. Remember when the ATF sold guns to cartels in Mexico? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandalRemember when the ATF lied about Randy Weaver having explosives, machine guns, marijuana, and being a bank robber and the stand-off that followed ended up getting 3 people killed and 2 wounded? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge#ATF_involvementRemember how the ATF mostly focuses on harassing innocent people for non-crimes, not actually tracking down illegal guns? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Alcohol,_Tobacco,_Firearms_and_Explosives#Controversies"Based upon these hearings it is apparent that ATF enforcement tactics made possible by current federal firearms laws are constitutionally, legally, and practically reprehensible." "Evidence received demonstrated that ATF agents tended to concentrate upon collector's items rather than "criminal street guns" Remember when the ATF tried to ban M855 5.56mm rifle ammunition because "It's armor piercing pistol ammunition", even though it doesn't even meet their own standards for armor piercing pistol ammunition. And if it did, so would practically every rifle round on Earth. ATF's definition of "Armor piercing pistol ammunition" + Show Spoiler + A projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
A full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile. M855 is not intended to be fired from a pistol, just because someone made a pistol that uses it doesn't mean M855 was made for pistols. M855 is not made entirely of any of those mentioned substances, nor is its core. tl;dr, the ATF is scum. All they do is harass people.
I like how the wiki page lists none of their successes and only high profile failures over a 30 year period.
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Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker's (R) aides may have had a bigger role in a failed attempt to gut the state's government transparency laws than his office previously admitted, The Wisconsin State Journal reported on Thursday.
Emails surfaced by the Journal suggested the governor's office was behind provisions of the proposal that would have shielded “deliberative process" documents from open records requests. Walker is currently facing lawsuits from various publications and transparency organizations over his refusal to turn over documents related to the so-called "deliberative process," such as emails and drafting materials concerning how legislation evolves.
Critics from across the political spectrum slammed Wisconsin lawmakers' attempt to overhaul open records laws in a provision tucked in a larger budget package approved by a legislative committee on the eve of the Fourth of July weekend. State Republicans, led by Walker, quickly dropped the measure. However, for days his office was mum on the governor's role in the proposed changes, until finally admitting that Walker's staff "provided input" on the language, which was filed by state Assembly Speaker Robin Vos (R).
When asked for comment by the Wisconsin State Journal on the most recently surfaced emails, the governor's spokeswoman pointed back to the office's previous statement, which also said that the "intent with these changes was to encourage a deliberative process with state agencies in developing policy and legislation."
State Republicans have signaled that they may try to push the changes again, but as standalone legislation rather than as a provision to the budget package.
Source
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On July 31 2015 01:51 zlefin wrote:
One thing about the gas tax is that it makes sense; usage of gas tends to correlate with usage of roads, so its basically like an easier to administer toll system.
It is regressive though.
One recent issue with it is it doesn't account for electric cars.
For the moment, electric cars are such a minor percentage of cars that nobody cares. It is worth taking note of for future solutions, but for the next 10 years or so, it won't make that much of a difference.
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On July 31 2015 01:56 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2015 01:32 Millitron wrote:On July 31 2015 01:10 Plansix wrote:On July 31 2015 00:52 Millitron wrote:On July 30 2015 22:49 Plansix wrote:
Seems accurate. A brief discussion of the lack of political will to go after high profile CEO's and employees of banks that causes the crash of 2008. Beyond that, not much else.
Housing is good, people should have it. Cheap housing is good because it prevents people form being desperate and doing things like break into my house. I think it's because corporations are people. It's possible to punish the corporation for crimes, but since the corporation isn't really a person, it doesn't feel any shame or guilt. Sure, you could charge the corporation huge fines, but that doesn't actually affect the people at the top. They just lay off a few people or raise prices and bam, fine covered. The CEO doesn't ever feel any of the affects. I know I disagreed with you earlier on digital evidence collection, but I actually like your point that the people responsible need to be held accountable. Holding the corporation accountable doesn't actually do anything. Its a large problem with the current system in both EU and the US, that the largest banks/financial institutions are so massive the government agencies made to police them can't do it. And the fact that they are under funded at all times due to partisan politics doesn't help. There are a number of investigators from the Reagan who were interviewed after crisis and they talked about the systematic defunding of their agencies. That the FBI and other groups were told not to focus on white crime. Its sad because it likely wouldn’t even require to many changes to the laws or police powers, just more money and man power. But policing banks and other financial institutions is not a priority of government. And likely won’t be as long as they can dump so much money into campaigning. You see a lot of the same stuff with the anti-gun that is funded by gun manufacturers. They found it to be way more effective to keep the ATF underfunded and making the backgrounds checks and tracking of illegal fire arms more cumbersome. Even if the laws are in place, its hard to enforce them. Well the ATF is a pretty horrible organization. The controversy section of their Wikipedia page is twice as long as the history section. There's not a single positive event on the page anywhere. Just abuse after abuse after abuse. Remember when the ATF sold guns to cartels in Mexico? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandalRemember when the ATF lied about Randy Weaver having explosives, machine guns, marijuana, and being a bank robber and the stand-off that followed ended up getting 3 people killed and 2 wounded? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge#ATF_involvementRemember how the ATF mostly focuses on harassing innocent people for non-crimes, not actually tracking down illegal guns? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Alcohol,_Tobacco,_Firearms_and_Explosives#Controversies"Based upon these hearings it is apparent that ATF enforcement tactics made possible by current federal firearms laws are constitutionally, legally, and practically reprehensible." "Evidence received demonstrated that ATF agents tended to concentrate upon collector's items rather than "criminal street guns" Remember when the ATF tried to ban M855 5.56mm rifle ammunition because "It's armor piercing pistol ammunition", even though it doesn't even meet their own standards for armor piercing pistol ammunition. And if it did, so would practically every rifle round on Earth. ATF's definition of "Armor piercing pistol ammunition" + Show Spoiler + A projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
A full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile. M855 is not intended to be fired from a pistol, just because someone made a pistol that uses it doesn't mean M855 was made for pistols. M855 is not made entirely of any of those mentioned substances, nor is its core. tl;dr, the ATF is scum. All they do is harass people. I like how the wiki page lists none of their successes and only high profile failures over a 30 year period.
It could be because they don't have any successes worth mentioning.
Google "ATF success stories"
The only on-topic results are on the ATF's website. So the ATF is the only group that says the ATF is doing a good job.
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On July 31 2015 02:01 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2015 01:56 Plansix wrote:On July 31 2015 01:32 Millitron wrote:On July 31 2015 01:10 Plansix wrote:On July 31 2015 00:52 Millitron wrote:On July 30 2015 22:49 Plansix wrote:
Seems accurate. A brief discussion of the lack of political will to go after high profile CEO's and employees of banks that causes the crash of 2008. Beyond that, not much else.
Housing is good, people should have it. Cheap housing is good because it prevents people form being desperate and doing things like break into my house. I think it's because corporations are people. It's possible to punish the corporation for crimes, but since the corporation isn't really a person, it doesn't feel any shame or guilt. Sure, you could charge the corporation huge fines, but that doesn't actually affect the people at the top. They just lay off a few people or raise prices and bam, fine covered. The CEO doesn't ever feel any of the affects. I know I disagreed with you earlier on digital evidence collection, but I actually like your point that the people responsible need to be held accountable. Holding the corporation accountable doesn't actually do anything. Its a large problem with the current system in both EU and the US, that the largest banks/financial institutions are so massive the government agencies made to police them can't do it. And the fact that they are under funded at all times due to partisan politics doesn't help. There are a number of investigators from the Reagan who were interviewed after crisis and they talked about the systematic defunding of their agencies. That the FBI and other groups were told not to focus on white crime. Its sad because it likely wouldn’t even require to many changes to the laws or police powers, just more money and man power. But policing banks and other financial institutions is not a priority of government. And likely won’t be as long as they can dump so much money into campaigning. You see a lot of the same stuff with the anti-gun that is funded by gun manufacturers. They found it to be way more effective to keep the ATF underfunded and making the backgrounds checks and tracking of illegal fire arms more cumbersome. Even if the laws are in place, its hard to enforce them. Well the ATF is a pretty horrible organization. The controversy section of their Wikipedia page is twice as long as the history section. There's not a single positive event on the page anywhere. Just abuse after abuse after abuse. Remember when the ATF sold guns to cartels in Mexico? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandalRemember when the ATF lied about Randy Weaver having explosives, machine guns, marijuana, and being a bank robber and the stand-off that followed ended up getting 3 people killed and 2 wounded? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge#ATF_involvementRemember how the ATF mostly focuses on harassing innocent people for non-crimes, not actually tracking down illegal guns? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Alcohol,_Tobacco,_Firearms_and_Explosives#Controversies"Based upon these hearings it is apparent that ATF enforcement tactics made possible by current federal firearms laws are constitutionally, legally, and practically reprehensible." "Evidence received demonstrated that ATF agents tended to concentrate upon collector's items rather than "criminal street guns" Remember when the ATF tried to ban M855 5.56mm rifle ammunition because "It's armor piercing pistol ammunition", even though it doesn't even meet their own standards for armor piercing pistol ammunition. And if it did, so would practically every rifle round on Earth. ATF's definition of "Armor piercing pistol ammunition" + Show Spoiler + A projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
A full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile. M855 is not intended to be fired from a pistol, just because someone made a pistol that uses it doesn't mean M855 was made for pistols. M855 is not made entirely of any of those mentioned substances, nor is its core. tl;dr, the ATF is scum. All they do is harass people. I like how the wiki page lists none of their successes and only high profile failures over a 30 year period. It could be because they don't have any successes worth mentioning. Google "ATF success stories" The only on-topic results are on the ATF's website. So the ATF is the only group that says the ATF is doing a good job.
That is the perfect metric for performance over 30 years. I would also point out that the exact same thing happens when you google FBI Success stories.
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It's nice to see someone reveal the flawed methodology that operates alongside their equally flawed conclusions. Thanks Millitron!
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On July 31 2015 02:07 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2015 02:01 Millitron wrote:On July 31 2015 01:56 Plansix wrote:On July 31 2015 01:32 Millitron wrote:On July 31 2015 01:10 Plansix wrote:On July 31 2015 00:52 Millitron wrote:On July 30 2015 22:49 Plansix wrote:
Seems accurate. A brief discussion of the lack of political will to go after high profile CEO's and employees of banks that causes the crash of 2008. Beyond that, not much else.
Housing is good, people should have it. Cheap housing is good because it prevents people form being desperate and doing things like break into my house. I think it's because corporations are people. It's possible to punish the corporation for crimes, but since the corporation isn't really a person, it doesn't feel any shame or guilt. Sure, you could charge the corporation huge fines, but that doesn't actually affect the people at the top. They just lay off a few people or raise prices and bam, fine covered. The CEO doesn't ever feel any of the affects. I know I disagreed with you earlier on digital evidence collection, but I actually like your point that the people responsible need to be held accountable. Holding the corporation accountable doesn't actually do anything. Its a large problem with the current system in both EU and the US, that the largest banks/financial institutions are so massive the government agencies made to police them can't do it. And the fact that they are under funded at all times due to partisan politics doesn't help. There are a number of investigators from the Reagan who were interviewed after crisis and they talked about the systematic defunding of their agencies. That the FBI and other groups were told not to focus on white crime. Its sad because it likely wouldn’t even require to many changes to the laws or police powers, just more money and man power. But policing banks and other financial institutions is not a priority of government. And likely won’t be as long as they can dump so much money into campaigning. You see a lot of the same stuff with the anti-gun that is funded by gun manufacturers. They found it to be way more effective to keep the ATF underfunded and making the backgrounds checks and tracking of illegal fire arms more cumbersome. Even if the laws are in place, its hard to enforce them. Well the ATF is a pretty horrible organization. The controversy section of their Wikipedia page is twice as long as the history section. There's not a single positive event on the page anywhere. Just abuse after abuse after abuse. Remember when the ATF sold guns to cartels in Mexico? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandalRemember when the ATF lied about Randy Weaver having explosives, machine guns, marijuana, and being a bank robber and the stand-off that followed ended up getting 3 people killed and 2 wounded? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge#ATF_involvementRemember how the ATF mostly focuses on harassing innocent people for non-crimes, not actually tracking down illegal guns? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Alcohol,_Tobacco,_Firearms_and_Explosives#Controversies"Based upon these hearings it is apparent that ATF enforcement tactics made possible by current federal firearms laws are constitutionally, legally, and practically reprehensible." "Evidence received demonstrated that ATF agents tended to concentrate upon collector's items rather than "criminal street guns" Remember when the ATF tried to ban M855 5.56mm rifle ammunition because "It's armor piercing pistol ammunition", even though it doesn't even meet their own standards for armor piercing pistol ammunition. And if it did, so would practically every rifle round on Earth. ATF's definition of "Armor piercing pistol ammunition" + Show Spoiler + A projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
A full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile. M855 is not intended to be fired from a pistol, just because someone made a pistol that uses it doesn't mean M855 was made for pistols. M855 is not made entirely of any of those mentioned substances, nor is its core. tl;dr, the ATF is scum. All they do is harass people. I like how the wiki page lists none of their successes and only high profile failures over a 30 year period. It could be because they don't have any successes worth mentioning. Google "ATF success stories" The only on-topic results are on the ATF's website. So the ATF is the only group that says the ATF is doing a good job. That is the perfect metric for performance over 30 years. I would also point out that the exact same thing happens when you google FBI Success stories.
That's plainly false. 5th result is a CNN story about the FBI foiling a child prostitution ring.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/29/justice/child-prostitution-arrests/
On July 31 2015 02:11 farvacola wrote:
It's nice to see someone reveal the flawed methodology that operates alongside their equally flawed conclusions. Thanks Millitron!
Yet another post that doesn't really add anything from Farv. Bravo!
You do sure seem to love saying I'm wrong without really explaining how I'm wrong.
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On July 31 2015 02:14 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2015 02:07 Plansix wrote:On July 31 2015 02:01 Millitron wrote:On July 31 2015 01:56 Plansix wrote:On July 31 2015 01:32 Millitron wrote:On July 31 2015 01:10 Plansix wrote:On July 31 2015 00:52 Millitron wrote:On July 30 2015 22:49 Plansix wrote:
Seems accurate. A brief discussion of the lack of political will to go after high profile CEO's and employees of banks that causes the crash of 2008. Beyond that, not much else.
Housing is good, people should have it. Cheap housing is good because it prevents people form being desperate and doing things like break into my house. I think it's because corporations are people. It's possible to punish the corporation for crimes, but since the corporation isn't really a person, it doesn't feel any shame or guilt. Sure, you could charge the corporation huge fines, but that doesn't actually affect the people at the top. They just lay off a few people or raise prices and bam, fine covered. The CEO doesn't ever feel any of the affects. I know I disagreed with you earlier on digital evidence collection, but I actually like your point that the people responsible need to be held accountable. Holding the corporation accountable doesn't actually do anything. Its a large problem with the current system in both EU and the US, that the largest banks/financial institutions are so massive the government agencies made to police them can't do it. And the fact that they are under funded at all times due to partisan politics doesn't help. There are a number of investigators from the Reagan who were interviewed after crisis and they talked about the systematic defunding of their agencies. That the FBI and other groups were told not to focus on white crime. Its sad because it likely wouldn’t even require to many changes to the laws or police powers, just more money and man power. But policing banks and other financial institutions is not a priority of government. And likely won’t be as long as they can dump so much money into campaigning. You see a lot of the same stuff with the anti-gun that is funded by gun manufacturers. They found it to be way more effective to keep the ATF underfunded and making the backgrounds checks and tracking of illegal fire arms more cumbersome. Even if the laws are in place, its hard to enforce them. Well the ATF is a pretty horrible organization. The controversy section of their Wikipedia page is twice as long as the history section. There's not a single positive event on the page anywhere. Just abuse after abuse after abuse. Remember when the ATF sold guns to cartels in Mexico? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandalRemember when the ATF lied about Randy Weaver having explosives, machine guns, marijuana, and being a bank robber and the stand-off that followed ended up getting 3 people killed and 2 wounded? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge#ATF_involvementRemember how the ATF mostly focuses on harassing innocent people for non-crimes, not actually tracking down illegal guns? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Alcohol,_Tobacco,_Firearms_and_Explosives#Controversies"Based upon these hearings it is apparent that ATF enforcement tactics made possible by current federal firearms laws are constitutionally, legally, and practically reprehensible." "Evidence received demonstrated that ATF agents tended to concentrate upon collector's items rather than "criminal street guns" Remember when the ATF tried to ban M855 5.56mm rifle ammunition because "It's armor piercing pistol ammunition", even though it doesn't even meet their own standards for armor piercing pistol ammunition. And if it did, so would practically every rifle round on Earth. ATF's definition of "Armor piercing pistol ammunition" + Show Spoiler + A projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
A full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile. M855 is not intended to be fired from a pistol, just because someone made a pistol that uses it doesn't mean M855 was made for pistols. M855 is not made entirely of any of those mentioned substances, nor is its core. tl;dr, the ATF is scum. All they do is harass people. I like how the wiki page lists none of their successes and only high profile failures over a 30 year period. It could be because they don't have any successes worth mentioning. Google "ATF success stories" The only on-topic results are on the ATF's website. So the ATF is the only group that says the ATF is doing a good job. That is the perfect metric for performance over 30 years. I would also point out that the exact same thing happens when you google FBI Success stories. That's plainly false. 5th result is a CNN story about the FBI foiling a child prostitution ring. http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/29/justice/child-prostitution-arrests/Show nested quote +On July 31 2015 02:11 farvacola wrote:
It's nice to see someone reveal the flawed methodology that operates alongside their equally flawed conclusions. Thanks Millitron! Yet another post that doesn't really add anything from Farv. Bravo! You do sure seem to love saying I'm wrong without really explaining how I'm wrong.
That internet searching and wiki's do not reflect reality on a 1-1 basis? The search engines are bias? That is stuff that you should sort of know by now by traveling through public education.
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On July 31 2015 02:23 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2015 02:14 Millitron wrote:On July 31 2015 02:07 Plansix wrote:On July 31 2015 02:01 Millitron wrote:On July 31 2015 01:56 Plansix wrote:On July 31 2015 01:32 Millitron wrote:On July 31 2015 01:10 Plansix wrote:On July 31 2015 00:52 Millitron wrote:On July 30 2015 22:49 Plansix wrote:
Seems accurate. A brief discussion of the lack of political will to go after high profile CEO's and employees of banks that causes the crash of 2008. Beyond that, not much else.
Housing is good, people should have it. Cheap housing is good because it prevents people form being desperate and doing things like break into my house. I think it's because corporations are people. It's possible to punish the corporation for crimes, but since the corporation isn't really a person, it doesn't feel any shame or guilt. Sure, you could charge the corporation huge fines, but that doesn't actually affect the people at the top. They just lay off a few people or raise prices and bam, fine covered. The CEO doesn't ever feel any of the affects. I know I disagreed with you earlier on digital evidence collection, but I actually like your point that the people responsible need to be held accountable. Holding the corporation accountable doesn't actually do anything. Its a large problem with the current system in both EU and the US, that the largest banks/financial institutions are so massive the government agencies made to police them can't do it. And the fact that they are under funded at all times due to partisan politics doesn't help. There are a number of investigators from the Reagan who were interviewed after crisis and they talked about the systematic defunding of their agencies. That the FBI and other groups were told not to focus on white crime. Its sad because it likely wouldn’t even require to many changes to the laws or police powers, just more money and man power. But policing banks and other financial institutions is not a priority of government. And likely won’t be as long as they can dump so much money into campaigning. You see a lot of the same stuff with the anti-gun that is funded by gun manufacturers. They found it to be way more effective to keep the ATF underfunded and making the backgrounds checks and tracking of illegal fire arms more cumbersome. Even if the laws are in place, its hard to enforce them. Well the ATF is a pretty horrible organization. The controversy section of their Wikipedia page is twice as long as the history section. There's not a single positive event on the page anywhere. Just abuse after abuse after abuse. Remember when the ATF sold guns to cartels in Mexico? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandalRemember when the ATF lied about Randy Weaver having explosives, machine guns, marijuana, and being a bank robber and the stand-off that followed ended up getting 3 people killed and 2 wounded? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge#ATF_involvementRemember how the ATF mostly focuses on harassing innocent people for non-crimes, not actually tracking down illegal guns? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Alcohol,_Tobacco,_Firearms_and_Explosives#Controversies"Based upon these hearings it is apparent that ATF enforcement tactics made possible by current federal firearms laws are constitutionally, legally, and practically reprehensible." "Evidence received demonstrated that ATF agents tended to concentrate upon collector's items rather than "criminal street guns" Remember when the ATF tried to ban M855 5.56mm rifle ammunition because "It's armor piercing pistol ammunition", even though it doesn't even meet their own standards for armor piercing pistol ammunition. And if it did, so would practically every rifle round on Earth. ATF's definition of "Armor piercing pistol ammunition" + Show Spoiler + A projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
A full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile. M855 is not intended to be fired from a pistol, just because someone made a pistol that uses it doesn't mean M855 was made for pistols. M855 is not made entirely of any of those mentioned substances, nor is its core. tl;dr, the ATF is scum. All they do is harass people. I like how the wiki page lists none of their successes and only high profile failures over a 30 year period. It could be because they don't have any successes worth mentioning. Google "ATF success stories" The only on-topic results are on the ATF's website. So the ATF is the only group that says the ATF is doing a good job. That is the perfect metric for performance over 30 years. I would also point out that the exact same thing happens when you google FBI Success stories. That's plainly false. 5th result is a CNN story about the FBI foiling a child prostitution ring. http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/29/justice/child-prostitution-arrests/On July 31 2015 02:11 farvacola wrote:
It's nice to see someone reveal the flawed methodology that operates alongside their equally flawed conclusions. Thanks Millitron! Yet another post that doesn't really add anything from Farv. Bravo! You do sure seem to love saying I'm wrong without really explaining how I'm wrong. That internet searching and wiki's do not reflect reality on a 1-1 basis? The search engines are bias? That is stuff that you should sort of know by now by traveling through public education.
Even if I'm missing many minor success stories, you'd think there'd be at least one big one that would've gotten coverage somewhere other than the ATF's own website.
You said that the background check process doesn't work because the ATF is not funded well enough. But the thing is, it's automated. There's a database of people with felony convictions. All the NICS check does is check that DB for the prospective buyer. There's no big investigation that needs funded every time someone buys a gun.
I actually wouldn't mind the ATF getting better funding, assuming they actually used it on things they're behind schedule on, like signing off on NFA tax stamps, and assuming they actually get some oversight for once. Apparently flares and chalk are considered explosives now.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/07/foghorn/atf-re-classifies-certain-flares-and-40mm-chalk-rounds-as-explosives-begins-confiscation/
When they waste money on harassing people over stupid stuff like flares and chalk rounds, doesn't it make you wonder whether they really actually need more money, or just need to be smarter with what they have?
There probably are real investigations they're doing that could use more money. But this idea that the ATF is some great agency because they're in charge of gun control, and you happen to be in favor of gun control, is pretty ridiculous.
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Oh Jesus.
Maybe the FBI and ATF are organizations who you don't hear about when they do their jobs properly? Like, we never congratulate the FDA for a job well done when they inspect our food, get rid of bad meat, etc. but when there's a salmonella outbreak they're all over the news. It seems that "no news is good news" is a much likely explanation than federal agencies with billions in funding and thousands of employees have been fucking up in lockstep for several decades.
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On July 31 2015 02:39 ticklishmusic wrote:
Oh Jesus.
Maybe the FBI and ATF are organizations who you don't hear about when they do their jobs properly? Like, we never congratulate the FDA for a job well done when they inspect our food, get rid of bad meat, etc. but when there's a salmonella outbreak they're all over the news.
Except we do congratulate them because they're the ones who deal with the outbreak.
And we do hear about the FBI busting big crime rings.
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EPT
