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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 2066

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-26 23:07:39
June 26 2015 23:03 GMT
#41301
On June 27 2015 07:59 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2015 07:55 cLutZ wrote:
On June 27 2015 07:20 zlefin wrote:
Certainly freedom of religion does not innately require freedom from taxation.

As to Supreme court issues, I looked up some gallup poll data histories
http://www.gallup.com/poll/4732/supreme-court.aspx
http://www.gallup.com/poll/1600/congress-public.aspx
and it looks like congress has consistently lower approval ratings than the supreme court by a sizeable margin over a sizeable time frame.

Actually, I think it's hard to argue that you can have freedom of religion with taxation

Please explain because I don't see how a church having to pay taxes limits your religious freedom.

freedom of religion is a misnomer. its the free exercise clause thats at play. if the government can tax religious organizations, it can use that power to discriminate against or govern religions.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
June 27 2015 00:23 GMT
#41302
In a week of painstakingly drafted Supreme Court decisions, no literary effort was crafted more gingerly than Jeb Bush’s statement following the high court’s 5-to-4 endorsement of same-sex marriage rights on Friday.

First, the former Florida governor paid homage to his beliefs and to evangelical political orthodoxy. “Guided by my faith, I believe in traditional marriage,” he wrote.

Then, he quickly pivoted to the more popular political center: “I also believe that we should love our neighbor and respect others, including those making lifetime commitments. In a country as diverse as ours, good people who have opposing views should be able to live side by side.”

That statement – a live-and-let-live strategy that closely mirrors his brother George’s approach to abortion a decade ago – underscored Bush’s personal opposition to same-sex marriage as a devout Catholic. But more than anything, it revealed a maneuvering, modern conservative worried about his party being caught on the wrong side of history – whatever his personal view of the issue.

Democrats, and many other Americans of varying political stripes enjoyed a feel-good national moment, but the GOP wasn’t invited to the party – Republicans were worrying about how to keep from being trampled by the accelerating gallop of 21st-century social change.

“In the state of Nevada, you can get married to a hooker who you met at the bar 30 minutes after meeting her with a blood alcohol level of 3.2 by an Elvis at a drive-through,” said Steve Schmidt, who managed the 2008 presidential campaign of Sen. John McCain. “At the end of the day, it’s an untenable position to be against ultimately millions of actual Americans’ marriages and commitments.”

Richard Land, the firebrand evangelical leader who wrote the famous letter urging Christians to support George W. Bush’s invasion of Iraq, summed up the view of many on the right tier of the Republican presidential field. “It’s a sad day for the country and now the battlefield shifts to freedom of conscience,” he told POLITICO. “It’s going to be an important issue in 2016.”

It’s also a matter of old-fashioned wedge politics, and Democrats are delighted at the growing roster of issues pulling the GOP backward through time. Last week, Southern Republicans were stunned by the wave of public, bipartisan sentiment against state-sanctioned displays of the Confederate flag in the wake of the Charleston massacre. After a stumbling start, local Republicans acted with deliberate speed, and not just in South Carolina: Alabama’s Robert Bentley, one of the country’s most conservative governors, ordered the rebel battle flag lowered over the capitol in Montgomery, where the civil war was declared and George Wallace delivered his “segregation forever” speech.”

Still, many standard-issue Republican positions, though they remain regional political assets in the South and parts of the Midwest, are underwater: The GOP’s blanket opposition to minimum-wage hikes, a more open immigration policy, and background checks on guns and lockstep support for tough anti-abortion laws and tax breaks for the wealthy all poll relatively poorly.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23296 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-27 00:31:49
June 27 2015 00:28 GMT
#41303
On June 27 2015 08:03 dAPhREAk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2015 07:59 Gorsameth wrote:
On June 27 2015 07:55 cLutZ wrote:
On June 27 2015 07:20 zlefin wrote:
Certainly freedom of religion does not innately require freedom from taxation.

As to Supreme court issues, I looked up some gallup poll data histories
http://www.gallup.com/poll/4732/supreme-court.aspx
http://www.gallup.com/poll/1600/congress-public.aspx
and it looks like congress has consistently lower approval ratings than the supreme court by a sizeable margin over a sizeable time frame.

Actually, I think it's hard to argue that you can have freedom of religion with taxation

Please explain because I don't see how a church having to pay taxes limits your religious freedom.

freedom of religion is a misnomer. its the free exercise clause thats at play. if the government can tax religious organizations, it can use that power to discriminate against or govern religions.


We wouldn't want to interfere with taxes when people want to pool together and by Creflo Dolla a new jet amirite? Amen!

“In the state of Nevada, you can get married to a hooker who you met at the bar 30 minutes after meeting her with a blood alcohol level of 3.2 by an Elvis at a drive-through,” said Steve Schmidt, who managed the 2008 presidential campaign of Sen. John McCain. “At the end of the day, it’s an untenable position to be against ultimately millions of actual Americans’ marriages and commitments.”


Untenable certainly seems to be relative.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
June 27 2015 00:30 GMT
#41304
sometimes I really like Steve Schmidt
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-27 01:21:59
June 27 2015 01:19 GMT
#41305
On June 27 2015 08:03 dAPhREAk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2015 07:59 Gorsameth wrote:
On June 27 2015 07:55 cLutZ wrote:
On June 27 2015 07:20 zlefin wrote:
Certainly freedom of religion does not innately require freedom from taxation.

As to Supreme court issues, I looked up some gallup poll data histories
http://www.gallup.com/poll/4732/supreme-court.aspx
http://www.gallup.com/poll/1600/congress-public.aspx
and it looks like congress has consistently lower approval ratings than the supreme court by a sizeable margin over a sizeable time frame.

Actually, I think it's hard to argue that you can have freedom of religion with taxation

Please explain because I don't see how a church having to pay taxes limits your religious freedom.

freedom of religion is a misnomer. its the free exercise clause thats at play. if the government can tax religious organizations, it can use that power to discriminate against or govern religions.

Yes.

On June 27 2015 09:28 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2015 08:03 dAPhREAk wrote:
On June 27 2015 07:59 Gorsameth wrote:
On June 27 2015 07:55 cLutZ wrote:
On June 27 2015 07:20 zlefin wrote:
Certainly freedom of religion does not innately require freedom from taxation.

As to Supreme court issues, I looked up some gallup poll data histories
http://www.gallup.com/poll/4732/supreme-court.aspx
http://www.gallup.com/poll/1600/congress-public.aspx
and it looks like congress has consistently lower approval ratings than the supreme court by a sizeable margin over a sizeable time frame.

Actually, I think it's hard to argue that you can have freedom of religion with taxation

Please explain because I don't see how a church having to pay taxes limits your religious freedom.

freedom of religion is a misnomer. its the free exercise clause thats at play. if the government can tax religious organizations, it can use that power to discriminate against or govern religions.


We wouldn't want to interfere with taxes when people want to pool together and by Creflo Dolla a new jet amirite? Amen!

Show nested quote +
“In the state of Nevada, you can get married to a hooker who you met at the bar 30 minutes after meeting her with a blood alcohol level of 3.2 by an Elvis at a drive-through,” said Steve Schmidt, who managed the 2008 presidential campaign of Sen. John McCain. “At the end of the day, it’s an untenable position to be against ultimately millions of actual Americans’ marriages and commitments.”


Untenable certainly seems to be relative.

Not on this, the abuse of tax code by one religious organization doesn't correctly illustrate the point. Just look at cigarette taxes. The taxes on cigs are a very strong disincentive from smoking, and have in some states created a huge black market. And it isn't just discriminating, they could potentially tax at a high enough rate to force all religions underground.

The more modern society progresses, the more it seems like an income tax is incompatible, or at least at odds with, many of our basic rights/protections enshrined in the Constitution.
Freeeeeeedom
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
June 27 2015 01:50 GMT
#41306
After calling the last day "some of the darkest 24 hours in our nation's history," Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) is now calling for Supreme Court justices to face elections.

In a National Review op-ed published Friday, Cruz chastised the high court for its decisions to reject a major challenge to Obamacare and to legalize same-sex marriage nationwide.

"Both decisions were judicial activism, plain and simple," Cruz writes. "Both were lawless."

To challenge that "judicial activism," Cruz said he is proposing a constitutional amendment to require Supreme Court justices to face retention elections every eight years.

"The decisions that have deformed our constitutional order and have debased our culture are but symptoms of the disease of liberal judicial activism that has infected our judiciary," Cruz writes. "A remedy is needed that will restore health to the sick man in our constitutional system. Rendering the justices directly accountable to the people would provide such a remedy."

Under Cruz's proposed amendment, justices would have to be approved by a majority of American voters as well as by the majority of voters in least half of the states. If they failed to reach the required approval rating, they would be removed from office and barred from serving on the Supreme Court in the future.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20254 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-27 01:55:09
June 27 2015 01:52 GMT
#41307
On June 27 2015 10:50 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
After calling the last day "some of the darkest 24 hours in our nation's history," Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) is now calling for Supreme Court justices to face elections.

In a National Review op-ed published Friday, Cruz chastised the high court for its decisions to reject a major challenge to Obamacare and to legalize same-sex marriage nationwide.

"Both decisions were judicial activism, plain and simple," Cruz writes. "Both were lawless."

To challenge that "judicial activism," Cruz said he is proposing a constitutional amendment to require Supreme Court justices to face retention elections every eight years.

"The decisions that have deformed our constitutional order and have debased our culture are but symptoms of the disease of liberal judicial activism that has infected our judiciary," Cruz writes. "A remedy is needed that will restore health to the sick man in our constitutional system. Rendering the justices directly accountable to the people would provide such a remedy."

Under Cruz's proposed amendment, justices would have to be approved by a majority of American voters as well as by the majority of voters in least half of the states. If they failed to reach the required approval rating, they would be removed from office and barred from serving on the Supreme Court in the future.


Source


So freaking salty. Meanwhile, states like Mississippi and Oklahoma are considering stopping issuing marriage licenses altogether.
Never Knows Best.
CursOr
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States6335 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-27 02:04:21
June 27 2015 02:00 GMT
#41308
The fact that this has become such a focus for so much of the nation speaks volumes about how bad the political situation is in this country. All this personal freedom, religious freedom, lifestyle shit should have been done with back in the 60's or before but yet we still spend all of the medias time repeating the same stuff over and over again. Makes me wonder if there will ever be any serious discussion of cutting military spending, removing our 100+ military bases from countries they don't belong in, actually regulating industry and food production, or insulating our political system from being completely bought by the wealthy and big companies. These discussions will never happen because we are going to incessantly bickering about guns, abortion and if we are okay with people being homosexual or not. so done with it
CJ forever (-_-(-_-(-_-(-_-)-_-)-_-)-_-)
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23296 Posts
June 27 2015 02:12 GMT
#41309
On June 27 2015 10:50 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
After calling the last day "some of the darkest 24 hours in our nation's history," Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) is now calling for Supreme Court justices to face elections.

In a National Review op-ed published Friday, Cruz chastised the high court for its decisions to reject a major challenge to Obamacare and to legalize same-sex marriage nationwide.

"Both decisions were judicial activism, plain and simple," Cruz writes. "Both were lawless."

To challenge that "judicial activism," Cruz said he is proposing a constitutional amendment to require Supreme Court justices to face retention elections every eight years.

"The decisions that have deformed our constitutional order and have debased our culture are but symptoms of the disease of liberal judicial activism that has infected our judiciary," Cruz writes. "A remedy is needed that will restore health to the sick man in our constitutional system. Rendering the justices directly accountable to the people would provide such a remedy."

Under Cruz's proposed amendment, justices would have to be approved by a majority of American voters as well as by the majority of voters in least half of the states. If they failed to reach the required approval rating, they would be removed from office and barred from serving on the Supreme Court in the future.


Source


It's a rough week for the bigoted and their representatives.

Also going to be a rough ride for candidates trying to court the part of the base that would rather keep the confederate flag up and ignore the supreme court, while also trying to stay electable in a general where the majority of the country disagrees with them.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
June 27 2015 02:26 GMT
#41310
clutz -> it feels to me like that's too far down the "slippery slope" to be an issue in practice, though I see how in principle it could be an issue. It wouldn't be that hard to just say they're taxed at the same rates as all other businesses. There's also a lot less they do that can be taxed, since they don't really sell goods much, and the services provided would end up getting covered under income tax laws rather than sales tax.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-27 02:39:20
June 27 2015 02:33 GMT
#41311


"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23296 Posts
June 27 2015 02:45 GMT
#41312
On June 27 2015 11:33 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN05jVNBs64

https://twitter.com/NickKristof/status/614617234942656512


I love how the organist was on it lol.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19262 Posts
June 27 2015 02:51 GMT
#41313
So the TPP passed without any news coverage at all. Are Americans going to be screwed by this deal? I sure wish we knew more about it.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
zf
Profile Joined April 2011
231 Posts
June 27 2015 02:52 GMT
#41314
On June 27 2015 10:19 cLutZ wrote:
The more modern society progresses, the more it seems like an income tax is incompatible, or at least at odds with, many of our basic rights/protections enshrined in the Constitution.

Sure, but whether that's a defect of the income tax or a defect of those individual liberties is a matter of political opinion.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23296 Posts
June 27 2015 02:56 GMT
#41315
On June 27 2015 11:51 BisuDagger wrote:
So the TPP passed without any news coverage at all. Are Americans going to be screwed by this deal? I sure wish we knew more about it.


It's not a done deal yet, but it was a loss for American labor for sure. What did pass though means that we will have the text for 60 days before congress can vote to pass it.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19262 Posts
June 27 2015 03:17 GMT
#41316
On June 27 2015 11:56 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2015 11:51 BisuDagger wrote:
So the TPP passed without any news coverage at all. Are Americans going to be screwed by this deal? I sure wish we knew more about it.


It's not a done deal yet, but it was a loss for American labor for sure. What did pass though means that we will have the text for 60 days before congress can vote to pass it.

Thanks for the info. I don't understand why this deal is so shady. How come congress couldn't see the deal before hand and why the 60 day crunch? Is it true if companies lose profit due to government regulations then they will be refunded?
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-27 03:23:42
June 27 2015 03:23 GMT
#41317
Bisu -> unclear; it is a bit odd to not wait for the terms to come out; but there's also been a lot of irrational and illogical hate and misinformation on the bill. It's not true that they WILL be refunded; they will be able to file a claim to try and get a refund; there's an extensive history from similar trade deals, and the overall refunds rates are quite low (iirc 10%-ish).
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-27 03:27:56
June 27 2015 03:26 GMT
#41318
On June 27 2015 06:36 Simberto wrote:
So, how are churches in any way relevant to a discussion regarding legal marriage, if churches don't actually have anything to do with legal marriage at all, and are basically a place people have a big and absurdly expensive party at after/before getting legally married?


Because conservatives want to pretend that marriage is a religious thing and that they own it, therefore they can define it.

EDIT: Ted Cruz is such a fucking child. What a waste of a human being.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
June 27 2015 03:51 GMT
#41319
On June 27 2015 12:23 zlefin wrote:
Bisu -> unclear; it is a bit odd to not wait for the terms to come out; but there's also been a lot of irrational and illogical hate and misinformation on the bill. It's not true that they WILL be refunded; they will be able to file a claim to try and get a refund; there's an extensive history from similar trade deals, and the overall refunds rates are quite low (iirc 10%-ish).

How do you know it's misinformation or irrational and illogical hate? You don't know what's in it.

And if you do know, then you've just admitted to breaching national security.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
screamingpalm
Profile Joined October 2011
United States1527 Posts
June 27 2015 03:54 GMT
#41320
On June 27 2015 12:17 BisuDagger wrote:
Thanks for the info. I don't understand why this deal is so shady. How come congress couldn't see the deal before hand and why the 60 day crunch? Is it true if companies lose profit due to government regulations then they will be refunded?


Here's some info for you on the TPP (I am not as optimistic as zlefin):

http://www.citizen.org/TPP

http://www.citizen.org/documents/egregious-investor-state-attacks-case-studies.pdf
MMT University is coming! http://www.mmtuniversity.org/
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