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On April 10 2013 22:54 cLAN.Anax wrote:It looks like a ton of wasted paper and money, if you ask me. Shouldn't the President have a million other, more executive-branch-like things to be worrying about? Thought the budget and purse were to be squabbled over with the legislators. I know, I know, then Obama either signs or vetoes it, so that makes him pivotal in this process.... I still think the Pres. should be applying his resources elsewhere, and deal with this only when something is placed upon his desk.
Then you have people saying he's not displaying leadership or something stupid.
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Study: More Adult Pell Grant Students, Not Enough Graduating
The federal government each year gives needy college students billions of dollars they don't have to pay back — $34.5 billion to be exact. More than 9 million students rely on the Pell Grant program. But a new study says much of the money is going to people who never graduate.
Sandy Baum, an expert on student financial aid, has been leading a group in a study of the 48-year-old Pell Grant program. Their report, commissioned by the nonprofit College Board, confirms what many have known for years about grant recipients.
"We have always known that the completion rates are lower than what we'd like them to be," Baum says. "But what we really learned was that there are so many students who are not the traditional Pell Grant student, who are not young people from low-income families but rather are adults seeking to improve their labor force opportunities. So understanding how important Pell Grants are to these students, and how poorly designed they are to actually serve these students, was something of an awakening."
Baum says these are people 25 years and older who were hit hard by the recession — lost their jobs, went back for more training and education, but have struggled to complete their schooling.
Baum says they get little or no guidance about what to study or even what school to choose.
"If you're an adult, you're more likely to see a sign on the bus or hear that your neighbor went to school someplace. You really don't have many options," she says.
Older, nontraditional students, Baum says, now make up nearly half of all Pell Grant recipients, but only 3 percent ever earn a bachelor's degree.
High dropout rates, though, are not limited to older students. Among 18- to 25-year-olds in the program, only a fraction earn a bachelor's degree within six years — often because they're just not ready for college-level work.
Sophia Zaman, a recent graduate from the University of Massachusetts, Amherst, says Pell Grant recipients like her don't drop out because they can't handle the work — higher tuition and fees push them out.
"I have numerous friends who were unable to afford taking on a fourth year of college because — and my university was not unique — we faced a 16 percent tuition increase," she says.
Zaman, who now lobbies Congress on behalf of the U.S. Student Association, says the $8,600 she received in Pell Grants over four years wasn't enough. She still had to work three part-time jobs to make ends meet.
Researchers agree that Pell Grants cover only a fraction of what they once covered. Their key finding, however, is that the Pell Grant program must now serve two equally needy but very different populations — young and old.
Source
Sigh.. another broken government program...
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"often because they're just not ready for college-level work."
because our educational system is broken before they ever get to college. need more highly trained teachers, smaller classes, harder work. high schools don't do their job
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On April 11 2013 03:44 sam!zdat wrote:
"often because they're just not ready for college-level work."
because our educational system is broken before they ever get to college. need more highly trained teachers, smaller classes, harder work. high schools don't do their job
Sigh.. another broken government program...
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why "government program"? it's just a broken society. it's not particularly the failure of "government". it's a failure of our civilization's entire attitude towards education.
edit: a B.A. is not a teaching credential, and studying "education" is worthless. we need more people with doctorates in classrooms. that way you can soak up all our unemployed overeducated youth getting more phds, and then you can have actually qualified people teaching the next generation. solve everything in one stroke.
edit: but then we have to prioritize not being a bunch of ignorant materialistic slobs as an objective for our civilization, and be willing to actually spend the civilizational resources on becoming non-fools. i'm not sure we're willing to do this.
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Samz' got a fair point actually. The two pieces, society and government, move in an inverse fluctuation with one another. Imagine it like a barrel of oil and water being filled to the brim and then sloshed around. No empty space, and the two materials move around the barrel into different areas.
Either way, a society that needs a government to prop up its systems by providing justifications is already in decline. Otherwise the culture self-regulates through emergent channels. If you need a government program, your culture is already becoming nostalgic enough to second guess its activities to the point of utter stagnation.
That being said, I don't think the egalitarian model of "educate everyone because everyone can be equal" is viable at all under any circumstances.
@Sam I actually recently read something to the effect of: "The problem is we have educators instead of people who are educated teaching.
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On April 11 2013 03:45 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 03:44 sam!zdat wrote:
"often because they're just not ready for college-level work."
because our educational system is broken before they ever get to college. need more highly trained teachers, smaller classes, harder work. high schools don't do their job Sigh.. another broken government program...
Hey now, no one said these students not ready for college came from public schools! 
Though holy crap, single digit success rates? I think that's time to reevaluate our criteria for these grants.
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On April 11 2013 03:56 Kimaker wrote:
@Sam I actually recently read something to the effect of: "The problem is we have educators instead of people who are educated teaching.
yes, this is precisely correct
edit: I believe that it is one of the most basic responsibilities of the sovereign to educate the people in order to promote human flourishing. it's not about "egalitarianism" necessarily - i'm basically an elitist. I just think as many people as possible should be elites.
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United States24767 Posts
On April 11 2013 03:46 sam!zdat wrote:
why "government program"? it's just a broken society. it's not particularly the failure of "government". it's a failure of our civilization's entire attitude towards education.
edit: a B.A. is not a teaching credential, and studying "education" is worthless. we need more people with doctorates in classrooms. that way you can soak up all our unemployed overeducated youth getting more phds, and then you can have actually qualified people teaching the next generation. solve everything in one stroke.
edit: but then we have to prioritize not being a bunch of ignorant materialistic slobs as an objective for our civilization, and be willing to actually spend the civilizational resources on becoming non-fools. i'm not sure we're willing to do this.
I find people who study education make better teachers of lower level material than phd, typically..
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On April 11 2013 03:46 sam!zdat wrote:
why "government program"? it's just a broken society. it's not particularly the failure of "government". it's a failure of our civilization's entire attitude towards education.
edit: a B.A. is not a teaching credential, and studying "education" is worthless. we need more people with doctorates in classrooms. that way you can soak up all our unemployed overeducated youth getting more phds, and then you can have actually qualified people teaching the next generation. solve everything in one stroke.
edit: but then we have to prioritize not being a bunch of ignorant materialistic slobs as an objective for our civilization, and be willing to actually spend the civilizational resources on becoming non-fools. i'm not sure we're willing to do this.
"government program" because it's something the government (generally) does and I'm in a snarky mood :p
If we're being serious than I'd agree with you but point out that education isn't broken for the entire country.
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My two cents on the problem of education is less with the teachers or "educators" and more with the motivation of the students to learn. A lot of students don't seem to have the drive to finish their degrees, so they just don't ever complete their education. As it's said, you can drag a horse to water all day long, but ultimately you can't make 'im drink....
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On April 11 2013 04:38 cLAN.Anax wrote:
My two cents on the problem of education is less with the teachers or "educators" and more with the motivation of the students to learn. A lot of students don't seem to have the drive to finish their degrees, so they just don't ever complete their education. As it's said, you can drag a horse to water all day long, but ultimately you can't make 'im drink....
Are we back at: Students need responsibility for their education and the cheapest way to get there is to increase their degree of self-financing?
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On April 11 2013 04:05 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 03:46 sam!zdat wrote:
why "government program"? it's just a broken society. it's not particularly the failure of "government". it's a failure of our civilization's entire attitude towards education.
edit: a B.A. is not a teaching credential, and studying "education" is worthless. we need more people with doctorates in classrooms. that way you can soak up all our unemployed overeducated youth getting more phds, and then you can have actually qualified people teaching the next generation. solve everything in one stroke.
edit: but then we have to prioritize not being a bunch of ignorant materialistic slobs as an objective for our civilization, and be willing to actually spend the civilizational resources on becoming non-fools. i'm not sure we're willing to do this. I find people who study education make better teachers of lower level material than phd, typically..
maybe for easy quantitative subjects
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Don't you need an accompanying chemistry major, math major etc etc along with your bachelor of education anyways? I dunno, I personally don't think it is going to make a difference whether a PhD or Bachelor is teaching grade 12 chemistry.
So your arguments are primarily based on the arts, which I don't disagree with. I disliked my English class and nothing besides Othello held my interest. They need to update their book selections, I thought the catcher in the rye and the the chrysalids were boring as hell. I did enjoy Fifth business though >.>.
I would like to echo one complaint through. I feel that there need to be more focus on how to write and communicate effectively. That is, framing a coherent argument on paper in the least number of words possible. My oral and writing skills is not particularly good, and I regret not tackling this problem from an early age. I think a logic class in high school would have helped me with this.
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On April 11 2013 04:48 radiatoren wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 04:38 cLAN.Anax wrote:
My two cents on the problem of education is less with the teachers or "educators" and more with the motivation of the students to learn. A lot of students don't seem to have the drive to finish their degrees, so they just don't ever complete their education. As it's said, you can drag a horse to water all day long, but ultimately you can't make 'im drink.... Are we back at: Students need responsibility for their education and the cheapest way to get there is to increase their degree of self-financing?
Isn't "student responsibility" and "[someone else] increase their degree of self-financing" kind of contradictory? My opinion is students should take it upon themselves to be responsible; no amount of coercion or incentive will ultimately be enough if a person simply chooses not to learn.
Basically, I see a whole lot of discussion on what "we" can/should do, when I believe it's fundamentally a student's personal deal. It just sounds like we're trying to solve other peoples' problems, and we're not doing well at it because we are not them.
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On April 11 2013 05:04 cLAN.Anax wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 04:48 radiatoren wrote:On April 11 2013 04:38 cLAN.Anax wrote:
My two cents on the problem of education is less with the teachers or "educators" and more with the motivation of the students to learn. A lot of students don't seem to have the drive to finish their degrees, so they just don't ever complete their education. As it's said, you can drag a horse to water all day long, but ultimately you can't make 'im drink.... Are we back at: Students need responsibility for their education and the cheapest way to get there is to increase their degree of self-financing? Isn't "student responsibility" and "[someone else] increase their degree of self-financing" kind of contradictory? My opinion is students should take it upon themselves to be responsible; no amount of coercion or incentive will ultimately be enough if a person simply chooses not to learn. Basically, I see a whole lot of discussion on what " we" can/should do, when I believe it's fundamentally a student's personal deal. It just sounds like we're trying to solve other peoples' problems, and we're not doing well at it because we are not them.
^this is precisely why "the cult of the individual" will see this country torn apart if it becomes the status quo.
"They aren't me, therefore I can do nothing." is utter despair, and I refuse to entertain such a notion. Sure, not everyone can be educated nor forced to learn, but there are millions upon millions of kids out there who don't want to learn because they've never been properly acquainted with good teaching/schools.
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On April 11 2013 04:54 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 04:05 micronesia wrote:On April 11 2013 03:46 sam!zdat wrote:
why "government program"? it's just a broken society. it's not particularly the failure of "government". it's a failure of our civilization's entire attitude towards education.
edit: a B.A. is not a teaching credential, and studying "education" is worthless. we need more people with doctorates in classrooms. that way you can soak up all our unemployed overeducated youth getting more phds, and then you can have actually qualified people teaching the next generation. solve everything in one stroke.
edit: but then we have to prioritize not being a bunch of ignorant materialistic slobs as an objective for our civilization, and be willing to actually spend the civilizational resources on becoming non-fools. i'm not sure we're willing to do this. I find people who study education make better teachers of lower level material than phd, typically.. maybe for easy quantitative subjects
Personnally I don't really wish my science teachers were that much better in science, but better in epistemology or something like that at least.
As for litterature and philosophy, I agree with you, with the exception that they then need a lot of freedom on what to teach, because I've had philosophy teachers teaching stuff that didn't have anything to do with their specialty, and they had a tendency to digress for instance... I also didn't listen to them enough, but that's another story :/
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On April 11 2013 05:10 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 05:04 cLAN.Anax wrote:On April 11 2013 04:48 radiatoren wrote:On April 11 2013 04:38 cLAN.Anax wrote:
My two cents on the problem of education is less with the teachers or "educators" and more with the motivation of the students to learn. A lot of students don't seem to have the drive to finish their degrees, so they just don't ever complete their education. As it's said, you can drag a horse to water all day long, but ultimately you can't make 'im drink.... Are we back at: Students need responsibility for their education and the cheapest way to get there is to increase their degree of self-financing? Isn't "student responsibility" and "[someone else] increase their degree of self-financing" kind of contradictory? My opinion is students should take it upon themselves to be responsible; no amount of coercion or incentive will ultimately be enough if a person simply chooses not to learn. Basically, I see a whole lot of discussion on what " we" can/should do, when I believe it's fundamentally a student's personal deal. It just sounds like we're trying to solve other peoples' problems, and we're not doing well at it because we are not them. ^this is precisely why "the cult of the individual" will see this country torn apart if it becomes the status quo. "They aren't me, therefore I can do nothing." is utter despair, and I refuse to entertain such a notion. Sure, not everyone can be educated nor forced to learn, but there are millions upon millions of kids out there who don't want to learn because they've never been properly acquainted with good teaching/schools.
It will not matter to a kid that genuinely does not want to learn even if you put education on a silver platter with french fries on the side. My brother is a good example of this; he's smart enough to learn, and my parents provided him the same, not-bad education as my other brother and myself, but he refuses to do the work he needs to succeed.
Believe it or not, I'm willing to donate to causes that help kids get a better education. We can do more than nothing, so long as the pupil accepts the help and is willing to advance; it all hinges on that one assumption, however. But I refuse to aid programs that don't work, or espouse government intervention (which I believe also doesn't work).
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On April 11 2013 05:10 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 05:04 cLAN.Anax wrote:On April 11 2013 04:48 radiatoren wrote:On April 11 2013 04:38 cLAN.Anax wrote:
My two cents on the problem of education is less with the teachers or "educators" and more with the motivation of the students to learn. A lot of students don't seem to have the drive to finish their degrees, so they just don't ever complete their education. As it's said, you can drag a horse to water all day long, but ultimately you can't make 'im drink.... Are we back at: Students need responsibility for their education and the cheapest way to get there is to increase their degree of self-financing? Isn't "student responsibility" and "[someone else] increase their degree of self-financing" kind of contradictory? My opinion is students should take it upon themselves to be responsible; no amount of coercion or incentive will ultimately be enough if a person simply chooses not to learn. Basically, I see a whole lot of discussion on what " we" can/should do, when I believe it's fundamentally a student's personal deal. It just sounds like we're trying to solve other peoples' problems, and we're not doing well at it because we are not them. ^this is precisely why "the cult of the individual" will see this country torn apart if it becomes the status quo. "They aren't me, therefore I can do nothing." is utter despair, and I refuse to entertain such a notion. Sure, not everyone can be educated nor forced to learn, but there are millions upon millions of kids out there who don't want to learn because they've never been properly acquainted with good teaching/schools.
That bit can't be ignored, something that left wing policies often do.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On April 11 2013 05:27 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 05:10 farvacola wrote:On April 11 2013 05:04 cLAN.Anax wrote:On April 11 2013 04:48 radiatoren wrote:On April 11 2013 04:38 cLAN.Anax wrote:
My two cents on the problem of education is less with the teachers or "educators" and more with the motivation of the students to learn. A lot of students don't seem to have the drive to finish their degrees, so they just don't ever complete their education. As it's said, you can drag a horse to water all day long, but ultimately you can't make 'im drink.... Are we back at: Students need responsibility for their education and the cheapest way to get there is to increase their degree of self-financing? Isn't "student responsibility" and "[someone else] increase their degree of self-financing" kind of contradictory? My opinion is students should take it upon themselves to be responsible; no amount of coercion or incentive will ultimately be enough if a person simply chooses not to learn. Basically, I see a whole lot of discussion on what " we" can/should do, when I believe it's fundamentally a student's personal deal. It just sounds like we're trying to solve other peoples' problems, and we're not doing well at it because we are not them. ^this is precisely why "the cult of the individual" will see this country torn apart if it becomes the status quo. "They aren't me, therefore I can do nothing." is utter despair, and I refuse to entertain such a notion. Sure, not everyone can be educated nor forced to learn, but there are millions upon millions of kids out there who don't want to learn because they've never been properly acquainted with good teaching/schools. That bit can't be ignored, something that left wing policies often do.
Yeah it can, depending on its degree of insignificance. Obviously in this case it cannot be ignored and we'll need to look further, but it's not as black-and-white as you're making it sound.
And I don't know why 'B.A' is suddenly the magical criteria for success. There are plenty of people who use the Pell Grant for other things, such as A.A.s/EMS/Real Estate license/etc. That 3% figure is just needlessly fear mongering. That isn't to say that there aren't things that need improvement, but society needs to stop its obsession with bachelor's degrees.
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EPT
