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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22369 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-14 01:05:19
March 14 2015 00:58 GMT
#34601
On March 14 2015 09:47 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2015 09:32 Gorsameth wrote:
On March 14 2015 09:21 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On March 14 2015 09:01 Gorsameth wrote:
On March 14 2015 08:53 dAPhREAk wrote:
let me put this another way.

if an enlisted man suffers prejudice from his superior, he goes to his superior's superior, he doesnt go to the general or the president as commander in chief. if the superior's superior fails to act, you go up the chain. you don't skip.

ferguson should be regulated first by st. louis county then by the state of missouri, including through the courts. only after that fails should the federal government get involved.

teh federal governement should be regulating states for the most part, not small little cities before even allowing the states to fix their own mess.

edit: holy shit GH, you just posted an example proving my exact point.

So you believe that in all these years no one has complained about the Ferguson P.D to any higher authority?
When shit gets this bad and oversight badly then yes I think it is entirely correct for the federal government to stop in.

I'm sure the people of Ferguson will be happy to wait another few decades before someone responsible actually started to give a shit. That their constitutional rights are being violated on a daily basis is there own problem, they could just move somewhere else after all.

I've only briefly skimmed the DOJ's report, but most of what's in there seems to be documenting disparate impact, which may or may not be illegal. The state of Missouri also documented disparate impact in many other districts (traffic stops data), but in many cases it's justified. So if you want to get somewhere with your complaint you need to be able to counter any of the justifications.

There are also political routs. Yeah, you can move out (or not move in). You can also vote. People in poor areas are also pretty terrible at filing official complaints and making the bad decision to give random cops are hard time instead.

"It's justified to stop more black people then white people." Sorry but this is where we get back to my opinion that this is a deep routed problem through America (and yes we have our own issues like this in Europe).
As for the other routs? I remember we talked before in this thread about how "just move" is not a viable solution for poorer portions of the population.
And do you vote for your police chiefs in the US? if you mean national and state politics then you would have to look at the big picture, the people in Ferguson could all vote for 1 man and it may not have any effect on election results. Its a little to deep in for me to check that, sorry.
Yes there are issues with filing complaints. Just like there is a feeling of defeat when those complaints that do get sent are ignored because the people who read them either don't care or are part of the problem.

It CAN be, and insisting otherwise is ignorant. If men commit more rape than women you can absolutely arrest more men than women for that crime. The same applies to any other group and for any other crime.

Blacks moved into Ferguson. If you cannot be simultaneously able and unable to move. No one has suggested moving to be the penultimate solution, but please do not pretend that moving is an impossibility reserved only for the top 1%. The average american moves something like 11 times in their lifetime.

You can vote for the people who run your town who control the PD. In Ferguson whites are something like 3X more likely to show up for the local elections (at parity for state / fed elections).

And why did Blacks move into Ferguson do you think? Was it the highly regarded police force, the beautiful parks or the fact that it was cheap (because its shit) and there was work?

If you offer people with the choice of a shitty house with oppressive cops and a job at mc donalds or living on the street without a job anywhere else I think most will chose the former.

As I said I don't know the specifics of the local elections but yes I do think that elections are not the answer and that people stopped showing up because nothing changed regardless of who they voted for.

Edit:
As per the earlier linked MSNBC article
Ferguson’s election system may also be a factor. For council elections, the city has three districts, or wards, and each ward elects two members each. That means it’s edging toward an “at-large” voting system, in which there are no districts at all, and all candidates face the whole electorate. Numerous jurisdictions around the country have used such systems to reduce minority representation, since it makes it harder for numerical minorities to elect their preferred candidates.

So yeah a part is no doubt a distrust in the system and as such a lower turnout. A high turnout might mean they can get something changed but its also the system working about them.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Chewbacca.
Profile Joined January 2011
United States3634 Posts
March 14 2015 01:07 GMT
#34602
On March 14 2015 09:58 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2015 09:47 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On March 14 2015 09:32 Gorsameth wrote:
On March 14 2015 09:21 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On March 14 2015 09:01 Gorsameth wrote:
On March 14 2015 08:53 dAPhREAk wrote:
let me put this another way.

if an enlisted man suffers prejudice from his superior, he goes to his superior's superior, he doesnt go to the general or the president as commander in chief. if the superior's superior fails to act, you go up the chain. you don't skip.

ferguson should be regulated first by st. louis county then by the state of missouri, including through the courts. only after that fails should the federal government get involved.

teh federal governement should be regulating states for the most part, not small little cities before even allowing the states to fix their own mess.

edit: holy shit GH, you just posted an example proving my exact point.

So you believe that in all these years no one has complained about the Ferguson P.D to any higher authority?
When shit gets this bad and oversight badly then yes I think it is entirely correct for the federal government to stop in.

I'm sure the people of Ferguson will be happy to wait another few decades before someone responsible actually started to give a shit. That their constitutional rights are being violated on a daily basis is there own problem, they could just move somewhere else after all.

I've only briefly skimmed the DOJ's report, but most of what's in there seems to be documenting disparate impact, which may or may not be illegal. The state of Missouri also documented disparate impact in many other districts (traffic stops data), but in many cases it's justified. So if you want to get somewhere with your complaint you need to be able to counter any of the justifications.

There are also political routs. Yeah, you can move out (or not move in). You can also vote. People in poor areas are also pretty terrible at filing official complaints and making the bad decision to give random cops are hard time instead.

"It's justified to stop more black people then white people." Sorry but this is where we get back to my opinion that this is a deep routed problem through America (and yes we have our own issues like this in Europe).
As for the other routs? I remember we talked before in this thread about how "just move" is not a viable solution for poorer portions of the population.
And do you vote for your police chiefs in the US? if you mean national and state politics then you would have to look at the big picture, the people in Ferguson could all vote for 1 man and it may not have any effect on election results. Its a little to deep in for me to check that, sorry.
Yes there are issues with filing complaints. Just like there is a feeling of defeat when those complaints that do get sent are ignored because the people who read them either don't care or are part of the problem.

It CAN be, and insisting otherwise is ignorant. If men commit more rape than women you can absolutely arrest more men than women for that crime. The same applies to any other group and for any other crime.

Blacks moved into Ferguson. If you cannot be simultaneously able and unable to move. No one has suggested moving to be the penultimate solution, but please do not pretend that moving is an impossibility reserved only for the top 1%. The average american moves something like 11 times in their lifetime.

You can vote for the people who run your town who control the PD. In Ferguson whites are something like 3X more likely to show up for the local elections (at parity for state / fed elections).

And why did Blacks move into Ferguson do you think? Was it the highly regarded police force, the beautiful parks or the fact that it was cheap (because its shit) and there was work?

If you offer people with the choice of a shitty house with oppressive cops and a job at mc donalds or living on the street without a job anywhere else I think most will chose the former.

As I said I don't know the specifics of the local elections but yes I do think that elections are not the answer and that people stopped showing up because nothing changed regardless of who they voted for.


The past two pages your reasoning for not trying to fix this at a local/state level is because reporting problems doesn't work due to everyone being racist. Voting is THE WAY to put non-racists into political positions where things can be done. How is voting not the answer??

Maybe 30 years ago when blacks were a large minority it wouldn't have worked as well, but at this point in time they are a majority and have been a majority for some time.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-14 01:12:06
March 14 2015 01:09 GMT
#34603
On March 14 2015 09:58 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2015 09:47 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On March 14 2015 09:32 Gorsameth wrote:
On March 14 2015 09:21 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On March 14 2015 09:01 Gorsameth wrote:
On March 14 2015 08:53 dAPhREAk wrote:
let me put this another way.

if an enlisted man suffers prejudice from his superior, he goes to his superior's superior, he doesnt go to the general or the president as commander in chief. if the superior's superior fails to act, you go up the chain. you don't skip.

ferguson should be regulated first by st. louis county then by the state of missouri, including through the courts. only after that fails should the federal government get involved.

teh federal governement should be regulating states for the most part, not small little cities before even allowing the states to fix their own mess.

edit: holy shit GH, you just posted an example proving my exact point.

So you believe that in all these years no one has complained about the Ferguson P.D to any higher authority?
When shit gets this bad and oversight badly then yes I think it is entirely correct for the federal government to stop in.

I'm sure the people of Ferguson will be happy to wait another few decades before someone responsible actually started to give a shit. That their constitutional rights are being violated on a daily basis is there own problem, they could just move somewhere else after all.

I've only briefly skimmed the DOJ's report, but most of what's in there seems to be documenting disparate impact, which may or may not be illegal. The state of Missouri also documented disparate impact in many other districts (traffic stops data), but in many cases it's justified. So if you want to get somewhere with your complaint you need to be able to counter any of the justifications.

There are also political routs. Yeah, you can move out (or not move in). You can also vote. People in poor areas are also pretty terrible at filing official complaints and making the bad decision to give random cops are hard time instead.

"It's justified to stop more black people then white people." Sorry but this is where we get back to my opinion that this is a deep routed problem through America (and yes we have our own issues like this in Europe).
As for the other routs? I remember we talked before in this thread about how "just move" is not a viable solution for poorer portions of the population.
And do you vote for your police chiefs in the US? if you mean national and state politics then you would have to look at the big picture, the people in Ferguson could all vote for 1 man and it may not have any effect on election results. Its a little to deep in for me to check that, sorry.
Yes there are issues with filing complaints. Just like there is a feeling of defeat when those complaints that do get sent are ignored because the people who read them either don't care or are part of the problem.

It CAN be, and insisting otherwise is ignorant. If men commit more rape than women you can absolutely arrest more men than women for that crime. The same applies to any other group and for any other crime.

Blacks moved into Ferguson. If you cannot be simultaneously able and unable to move. No one has suggested moving to be the penultimate solution, but please do not pretend that moving is an impossibility reserved only for the top 1%. The average american moves something like 11 times in their lifetime.

You can vote for the people who run your town who control the PD. In Ferguson whites are something like 3X more likely to show up for the local elections (at parity for state / fed elections).

And why did Blacks move into Ferguson do you think? Was it the highly regarded police force, the beautiful parks or the fact that it was cheap (because its shit) and there was work?

If you offer people with the choice of a shitty house with oppressive cops and a job at mc donalds or living on the street without a job anywhere else I think most will chose the former.

As I said I don't know the specifics of the local elections but yes I do think that elections are not the answer and that people stopped showing up because nothing changed regardless of who they voted for.

People move to the suburbs to find a better life. This isn't France where the suburbs are the slums (I've heard). Here the urban 'projects' are the bad bits and social policy has been conflicted between providing cheap public housing projects (hence the term) or giving vouchers to make the place the poor want to live more affordable.

From what I've read Ferguson was no exception. Blacks moved in seeking better schools and nicer neighborhoods.

Edit: I don't understand your point about elections. Whites were the majority in the 90's, so it's not like blacks were the voting majority for decades only to turn disparaged.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 14 2015 03:24 GMT
#34604
Senate Republicans will put forward a budget proposal next week that will include major revisions to the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP), better known as food stamps, according to Republican lawmakers. In an article published Thursday, Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., told the Wall Street Journal that the proposed budget would change SNAP funding to more closely resemble a block grant model.

Currently, federal SNAP funding is designed to automatically increase or decrease based on the number of people enrolled in the program. For benefit programs that receive their funding through block grants, such as Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF), the federal government provides each state with a lump sum and lets state governments decide how to allocate the money. These lump sums are a fixed amount and don’t change based on the number of beneficiaries.

In other words, if lawmakers alter SNAP so that it becomes funded through block grants, then states will have more flexibility to allocate benefits as they see fit. However, if a state experiences a sharp increase in applicants to the program, it will not receive an increase in funding to meet those needs.

“It’s just a better way to give flexibility on the ground, where people are at,” Graham told the Wall Street Journal. “The more you manage something far away, the more costly and less efficient it becomes.”

Republicans will also reportedly propose similar reforms to Medicaid. A spokesperson for the Republicans on the Senate Budget Committee declined to comment on the budget before it is released.

The GOP has perennially advocated funding SNAP through block grants since at least the Reagan administration. In fact, the Republican-controlled House Budget Committee made the recommendation in its own budget proposal as recently as April. At the time, the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, a Washington think tank, projected that the proposal would reduce SNAP funding by somewhere between $135 billion and $150 billion over the next decade.

Margarette Purvis, president of Food Bank For New York City, the country’s largest food bank, said that funding SNAP through block grants to the states would result in "giving them less resources, which you know will not cover the need."

SNAP has already experienced several billion dollars in cuts over the past two years as a result of the automatic expiration of emergency funds and changes to how SNAP benefits are calculated.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-14 13:31:31
March 14 2015 13:31 GMT
#34605
On March 14 2015 09:45 Chewbacca. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2015 09:42 Gorsameth wrote:
On March 14 2015 09:37 dAPhREAk wrote:
On March 14 2015 09:32 Gorsameth wrote:
On March 14 2015 09:21 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On March 14 2015 09:01 Gorsameth wrote:
On March 14 2015 08:53 dAPhREAk wrote:
let me put this another way.

if an enlisted man suffers prejudice from his superior, he goes to his superior's superior, he doesnt go to the general or the president as commander in chief. if the superior's superior fails to act, you go up the chain. you don't skip.

ferguson should be regulated first by st. louis county then by the state of missouri, including through the courts. only after that fails should the federal government get involved.

teh federal governement should be regulating states for the most part, not small little cities before even allowing the states to fix their own mess.

edit: holy shit GH, you just posted an example proving my exact point.

So you believe that in all these years no one has complained about the Ferguson P.D to any higher authority?
When shit gets this bad and oversight badly then yes I think it is entirely correct for the federal government to stop in.

I'm sure the people of Ferguson will be happy to wait another few decades before someone responsible actually started to give a shit. That their constitutional rights are being violated on a daily basis is there own problem, they could just move somewhere else after all.

I've only briefly skimmed the DOJ's report, but most of what's in there seems to be documenting disparate impact, which may or may not be illegal. The state of Missouri also documented disparate impact in many other districts (traffic stops data), but in many cases it's justified. So if you want to get somewhere with your complaint you need to be able to counter any of the justifications.

There are also political routs. Yeah, you can move out (or not move in). You can also vote. People in poor areas are also pretty terrible at filing official complaints and making the bad decision to give random cops are hard time instead.

"It's justified to stop more black people then white people." Sorry but this is where we get back to my opinion that this is a deep routed problem through America (and yes we have our own issues like this in Europe).
As for the other routs? I remember we talked before in this thread about how "just move" is not a viable solution for poorer portions of the population.
And do you vote for your police chiefs in the US? if you mean national and state politics then you would have to look at the big picture, the people in Ferguson could all vote for 1 man and it may not have any effect on election results. Its a little to deep in for me to check that, sorry.
Yes there are issues with filing complaints. Just like there is a feeling of defeat when those complaints that do get sent are ignored because the people who read them either don't care or are part of the problem.


we vote for city council and they appoint police chiefs, generally.

they have issues with people not voting in ferguson for local elections.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/ferguson-lack-diversity-goes-way-beyond-its-cops

Maybe because when they did vote, nothing changed?
It creates a rather depressing situation when those who are in charge of helping and protecting you are more or less oppressing you and when action appears pointless people stop trying to change it and focus on just surviving.

Could the people of Ferguson have done more? Entirely possible but I also believe many tried and saw nothing come of it so they stopped trying.

Over 60% of the population of Ferguson is African American, even if everyone else was racist against AAs they could still elect a completely non-racist against AA city council/other government officials.

ferguson is just a city within st.louis county. the governing body for ferguson pd is the county council of the 70% white st.louis county.

as a neighborhood that has recently been the recipient of blacks driven out of the city by gentrification, ferguson probably has a police department that used to be the pd for a white suburban neighborhood. so the police personnel including guys like mcculloch are not reflecting the current demographic of the city.

We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 14 2015 18:28 GMT
#34606
NEW YORK — The U.S. has so much crude that it is running out of places to put it, and that could drive oil and gasoline prices even lower in the coming months.

For the past seven weeks, the United States has been producing and importing an average of 1 million more barrels of oil every day than it is consuming. That extra crude is flowing into storage tanks, especially at the country’s main trading hub in Cushing, Oklahoma, pushing U.S. supplies to their highest point in at least 80 years, the Energy Department reported last month.

If this keeps up, storage tanks could approach their operational limits, known in the industry as “tank tops,” by mid-April and send the price of crude — and probably gasoline, too — plummeting.

“The fact of the matter is we are running out of storage capacity in the U.S.,” Ed Morse, head of commodities research at Citibank, said at a recent symposium at the Council on Foreign Relations in New York.

Morse has suggested oil could fall all the way to $20 (U.S.) a barrel from the current $50. At that rock-bottom price, oil companies, faced with mounting losses, would stop pumping oil until the glut eased. Gasoline prices would fall along with crude, though lower refinery production, because of seasonal factors and unexpected outages, could prevent a sharp decline.

The national average price of gasoline is $2.44 (U.S.) a gallon. That’s $1.02 cheaper than last year at this time, but up 37 cents over the past month.

Other analysts agree that crude is poised to fall sharply — if not all the way to $20 — because it continues to flood into storage for a number of reasons:


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23956 Posts
March 14 2015 18:39 GMT
#34607
Sigma Alpha Epsilon ‘not ruling out a lawsuit’ against Oklahoma University, says lawyer

Although the fraternity seeks “to have some other resolution to this matter,” Jones said, the lawyer said he is “not ruling out a lawsuit.” Jones did not elaborate, but he said he was hired by the SAE board “to protect the due process rights, the first amendment rights, and the 14th Amendment rights” of the fraternity’s members.

“Above all else, the board of the local chapter that I represent is concerned about the physical safety” of its members, Jones said. Some of them, Jones added, “have frankly been afraid to go to class.”

Jones, who served as Timothy McVeigh’s lead defense attorney during the Oklahoma City Bombing trial, said he believes the university’s response to the video was a “premature rush to judgement,” and one that implicitly painted all members of the fraternity “with a tar brush” as bigots or racists. Jones thought the university should have taken a more “measured” response.

“There are a number of issues here that we have to review,” Jones added, “I’m new to the case.” The alumni board hired Jones to advise them on Thursday.


If nominating Debo Adegbile was supposed to be a huge insult to cops, what should Black people think about SAE hiring the guy who defended McVeigh?

Source
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
March 14 2015 18:48 GMT
#34608
On March 15 2015 03:28 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
NEW YORK — The U.S. has so much crude that it is running out of places to put it, and that could drive oil and gasoline prices even lower in the coming months.

For the past seven weeks, the United States has been producing and importing an average of 1 million more barrels of oil every day than it is consuming. That extra crude is flowing into storage tanks, especially at the country’s main trading hub in Cushing, Oklahoma, pushing U.S. supplies to their highest point in at least 80 years, the Energy Department reported last month.

If this keeps up, storage tanks could approach their operational limits, known in the industry as “tank tops,” by mid-April and send the price of crude — and probably gasoline, too — plummeting.

“The fact of the matter is we are running out of storage capacity in the U.S.,” Ed Morse, head of commodities research at Citibank, said at a recent symposium at the Council on Foreign Relations in New York.

Morse has suggested oil could fall all the way to $20 (U.S.) a barrel from the current $50. At that rock-bottom price, oil companies, faced with mounting losses, would stop pumping oil until the glut eased. Gasoline prices would fall along with crude, though lower refinery production, because of seasonal factors and unexpected outages, could prevent a sharp decline.

The national average price of gasoline is $2.44 (U.S.) a gallon. That’s $1.02 cheaper than last year at this time, but up 37 cents over the past month.

Other analysts agree that crude is poised to fall sharply — if not all the way to $20 — because it continues to flood into storage for a number of reasons:


Source

It would be a better situation if Keystone XL had been built. But that's beating a dead horse at this point.
Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
March 14 2015 18:50 GMT
#34609
On March 15 2015 03:39 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
Sigma Alpha Epsilon ‘not ruling out a lawsuit’ against Oklahoma University, says lawyer

Although the fraternity seeks “to have some other resolution to this matter,” Jones said, the lawyer said he is “not ruling out a lawsuit.” Jones did not elaborate, but he said he was hired by the SAE board “to protect the due process rights, the first amendment rights, and the 14th Amendment rights” of the fraternity’s members.

“Above all else, the board of the local chapter that I represent is concerned about the physical safety” of its members, Jones said. Some of them, Jones added, “have frankly been afraid to go to class.”

Jones, who served as Timothy McVeigh’s lead defense attorney during the Oklahoma City Bombing trial, said he believes the university’s response to the video was a “premature rush to judgement,” and one that implicitly painted all members of the fraternity “with a tar brush” as bigots or racists. Jones thought the university should have taken a more “measured” response.

“There are a number of issues here that we have to review,” Jones added, “I’m new to the case.” The alumni board hired Jones to advise them on Thursday.


If nominating Debo Adegbile was supposed to be a huge insult to cops, what should Black people think about SAE hiring the guy who defended McVeigh?

Source

Why does it matter that Jones was Timothy McVeigh's attorney?
Who called in the fleet?
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23956 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-14 19:02:19
March 14 2015 19:01 GMT
#34610
On March 15 2015 03:50 Millitron wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2015 03:39 GreenHorizons wrote:
Sigma Alpha Epsilon ‘not ruling out a lawsuit’ against Oklahoma University, says lawyer

Although the fraternity seeks “to have some other resolution to this matter,” Jones said, the lawyer said he is “not ruling out a lawsuit.” Jones did not elaborate, but he said he was hired by the SAE board “to protect the due process rights, the first amendment rights, and the 14th Amendment rights” of the fraternity’s members.

“Above all else, the board of the local chapter that I represent is concerned about the physical safety” of its members, Jones said. Some of them, Jones added, “have frankly been afraid to go to class.”

Jones, who served as Timothy McVeigh’s lead defense attorney during the Oklahoma City Bombing trial, said he believes the university’s response to the video was a “premature rush to judgement,” and one that implicitly painted all members of the fraternity “with a tar brush” as bigots or racists. Jones thought the university should have taken a more “measured” response.

“There are a number of issues here that we have to review,” Jones added, “I’m new to the case.” The alumni board hired Jones to advise them on Thursday.


If nominating Debo Adegbile was supposed to be a huge insult to cops, what should Black people think about SAE hiring the guy who defended McVeigh?

Source

Why does it matter that Jones was Timothy McVeigh's attorney?


"If nominating Debo Adegbile was supposed to be a huge insult to cops"

I thought it wasn't an insult to cops, so I don't have a problem with McVeigh's former lawyer handling SAE
Not sure the leaving suing on the table helps SAE's image, but I don't have a problem with their lawyer choice because of who he defended in the past.

Several Senate Democrats joined with Republicans in voting against Debo Adegbile, whose nomination was adamantly and vocally opposed by conservatives due to his participation in an appeal filed on behalf of Mumia Abu-Jamal -- an internationally-known prisoner convicted of the 1981 murder of Philadelphia police officer Daniel Faulkner.


Source

The people who used Adegbile's client history against him are a different story.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
March 14 2015 19:07 GMT
#34611
On March 15 2015 04:01 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2015 03:50 Millitron wrote:
On March 15 2015 03:39 GreenHorizons wrote:
Sigma Alpha Epsilon ‘not ruling out a lawsuit’ against Oklahoma University, says lawyer

Although the fraternity seeks “to have some other resolution to this matter,” Jones said, the lawyer said he is “not ruling out a lawsuit.” Jones did not elaborate, but he said he was hired by the SAE board “to protect the due process rights, the first amendment rights, and the 14th Amendment rights” of the fraternity’s members.

“Above all else, the board of the local chapter that I represent is concerned about the physical safety” of its members, Jones said. Some of them, Jones added, “have frankly been afraid to go to class.”

Jones, who served as Timothy McVeigh’s lead defense attorney during the Oklahoma City Bombing trial, said he believes the university’s response to the video was a “premature rush to judgement,” and one that implicitly painted all members of the fraternity “with a tar brush” as bigots or racists. Jones thought the university should have taken a more “measured” response.

“There are a number of issues here that we have to review,” Jones added, “I’m new to the case.” The alumni board hired Jones to advise them on Thursday.


If nominating Debo Adegbile was supposed to be a huge insult to cops, what should Black people think about SAE hiring the guy who defended McVeigh?

Source

Why does it matter that Jones was Timothy McVeigh's attorney?


"If nominating Debo Adegbile was supposed to be a huge insult to cops"

I thought it wasn't an insult to cops, so I don't have a problem with McVeigh's former lawyer handling SAE
Not sure the leaving suing on the table helps SAE's image, but I don't have a problem with their lawyer choice because of who he defended in the past.

Show nested quote +
Several Senate Democrats joined with Republicans in voting against Debo Adegbile, whose nomination was adamantly and vocally opposed by conservatives due to his participation in an appeal filed on behalf of Mumia Abu-Jamal -- an internationally-known prisoner convicted of the 1981 murder of Philadelphia police officer Daniel Faulkner.


Source

The people who used Adegbile's client history against him are a different story.

I don't really care who any lawyer defended. Even Saddam Hussein had an attorney. Everyone deserves legal representation, meaning at least some lawyers are going to end up defending some pretty despicable people.
Who called in the fleet?
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23956 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-14 19:31:08
March 14 2015 19:08 GMT
#34612
On March 15 2015 04:07 Millitron wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2015 04:01 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 15 2015 03:50 Millitron wrote:
On March 15 2015 03:39 GreenHorizons wrote:
Sigma Alpha Epsilon ‘not ruling out a lawsuit’ against Oklahoma University, says lawyer

Although the fraternity seeks “to have some other resolution to this matter,” Jones said, the lawyer said he is “not ruling out a lawsuit.” Jones did not elaborate, but he said he was hired by the SAE board “to protect the due process rights, the first amendment rights, and the 14th Amendment rights” of the fraternity’s members.

“Above all else, the board of the local chapter that I represent is concerned about the physical safety” of its members, Jones said. Some of them, Jones added, “have frankly been afraid to go to class.”

Jones, who served as Timothy McVeigh’s lead defense attorney during the Oklahoma City Bombing trial, said he believes the university’s response to the video was a “premature rush to judgement,” and one that implicitly painted all members of the fraternity “with a tar brush” as bigots or racists. Jones thought the university should have taken a more “measured” response.

“There are a number of issues here that we have to review,” Jones added, “I’m new to the case.” The alumni board hired Jones to advise them on Thursday.


If nominating Debo Adegbile was supposed to be a huge insult to cops, what should Black people think about SAE hiring the guy who defended McVeigh?

Source

Why does it matter that Jones was Timothy McVeigh's attorney?


"If nominating Debo Adegbile was supposed to be a huge insult to cops"

I thought it wasn't an insult to cops, so I don't have a problem with McVeigh's former lawyer handling SAE
Not sure the leaving suing on the table helps SAE's image, but I don't have a problem with their lawyer choice because of who he defended in the past.

Several Senate Democrats joined with Republicans in voting against Debo Adegbile, whose nomination was adamantly and vocally opposed by conservatives due to his participation in an appeal filed on behalf of Mumia Abu-Jamal -- an internationally-known prisoner convicted of the 1981 murder of Philadelphia police officer Daniel Faulkner.


Source

The people who used Adegbile's client history against him are a different story.

I don't really care who any lawyer defended. Even Saddam Hussein had an attorney. Everyone deserves legal representation, meaning at least some lawyers are going to end up defending some pretty despicable people.


I agree, it was most of the Conservative senators (and a few Democrats) that disagree with you. So perhaps you see the confusion?

Perhaps putting a name to it would help.

On the Senate floor Tuesday afternoon, Cruz said, “Mr. President, this is insulting to law enforcement officers everywhere. I stand with the Fraternal Order of Police in opposition to Debo Adegbile.”


Source
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
March 14 2015 19:50 GMT
#34613
On March 15 2015 04:08 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2015 04:07 Millitron wrote:
On March 15 2015 04:01 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 15 2015 03:50 Millitron wrote:
On March 15 2015 03:39 GreenHorizons wrote:
Sigma Alpha Epsilon ‘not ruling out a lawsuit’ against Oklahoma University, says lawyer

Although the fraternity seeks “to have some other resolution to this matter,” Jones said, the lawyer said he is “not ruling out a lawsuit.” Jones did not elaborate, but he said he was hired by the SAE board “to protect the due process rights, the first amendment rights, and the 14th Amendment rights” of the fraternity’s members.

“Above all else, the board of the local chapter that I represent is concerned about the physical safety” of its members, Jones said. Some of them, Jones added, “have frankly been afraid to go to class.”

Jones, who served as Timothy McVeigh’s lead defense attorney during the Oklahoma City Bombing trial, said he believes the university’s response to the video was a “premature rush to judgement,” and one that implicitly painted all members of the fraternity “with a tar brush” as bigots or racists. Jones thought the university should have taken a more “measured” response.

“There are a number of issues here that we have to review,” Jones added, “I’m new to the case.” The alumni board hired Jones to advise them on Thursday.


If nominating Debo Adegbile was supposed to be a huge insult to cops, what should Black people think about SAE hiring the guy who defended McVeigh?

Source

Why does it matter that Jones was Timothy McVeigh's attorney?


"If nominating Debo Adegbile was supposed to be a huge insult to cops"

I thought it wasn't an insult to cops, so I don't have a problem with McVeigh's former lawyer handling SAE
Not sure the leaving suing on the table helps SAE's image, but I don't have a problem with their lawyer choice because of who he defended in the past.

Several Senate Democrats joined with Republicans in voting against Debo Adegbile, whose nomination was adamantly and vocally opposed by conservatives due to his participation in an appeal filed on behalf of Mumia Abu-Jamal -- an internationally-known prisoner convicted of the 1981 murder of Philadelphia police officer Daniel Faulkner.


Source

The people who used Adegbile's client history against him are a different story.

I don't really care who any lawyer defended. Even Saddam Hussein had an attorney. Everyone deserves legal representation, meaning at least some lawyers are going to end up defending some pretty despicable people.


I agree, it was most of the Conservative senators (and a few Democrats) that disagree with you. So perhaps you see the confusion?

Perhaps putting a name to it would help.

Show nested quote +
On the Senate floor Tuesday afternoon, Cruz said, “Mr. President, this is insulting to law enforcement officers everywhere. I stand with the Fraternal Order of Police in opposition to Debo Adegbile.”

Source

Isn't that a straw man? Cruz isn't arguing that cop killers shouldn't have legal representation.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
March 14 2015 19:56 GMT
#34614
Being against a lawyer who was doing their job seems wrong. Isn't that what cruz did there?
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
March 14 2015 19:57 GMT
#34615
when the democrats block an obama nomination, you really have to wonder about the nominee.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18857 Posts
March 14 2015 20:01 GMT
#34616
It was a 47-52 split so it isn't as though Democrats collectively blocked his nomination, rather that they saw no use in wedging him through at such a cost of political capital. The Amicus brief Adegbile took part in is actually pretty well written and founded.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
March 14 2015 20:03 GMT
#34617
not much to wonder, obviously charged issue with the mumia thign
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
March 14 2015 20:05 GMT
#34618
seven democrats went across party lines. the eighth appears to be a procedural strategy. they blocked the nomination.

this was an embarrassment for obama.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18857 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-14 20:11:46
March 14 2015 20:10 GMT
#34619
Nah, we ain't the Republican party, dawg; sometimes Democrats disagree with one another, even when it comes to allegations of racism, and the party doesn't have a conniption in response. Furthermore, the President can "lose" a nomination game without being embarrassed, particularly when the nominee is as divisive as Adegbile. Besides, even if Obama was "embarrassed" by the Adegbile proceedings, nobody, even Obama or Adegbile themselves, is going to lose too much sleep over it. Dude landed on his feet lol.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
March 14 2015 20:14 GMT
#34620
i guess calling it a travesty was obama's way of saying "reasonable minds could differ." i find it amusing you are trying to sugarcoat the fact that obama cant even control his own party. maybe im naive, but i would think you would get your own party to support your nominees before you put them up to get eviscerated. but thats just me.
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