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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18869 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-14 20:18:28
March 14 2015 20:17 GMT
#34621
You're drinking some good kool-aid if you think presidents typically control their parties, particularly when it comes to agency and judicial nominees. The process is very frequently contentious, and that's even when there's single party control of the process. There are but a few exceptions. But hey, you see sugarcoating, I see salting. That's just how it goes.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24354 Posts
March 14 2015 20:23 GMT
#34622
On March 15 2015 05:05 dAPhREAk wrote:
seven democrats went across party lines. the eighth appears to be a procedural strategy. they blocked the nomination.

this was an embarrassment for obama.


It's almost always roughly the same group of Democrats. If Republicans get Democratic votes in the Senate you can count on it usually being Joe Manchin and whoever from his crew he can rally. Usually Pryor, Casey, Heitkamp, Donnelly, etc... Keystone, climate, debo, etc.. You see several of the same names come up time and time again.

The only reason I bring it up is that it seems inconsistent for conservatives to rally around the idea that he shouldn't have been nominated because of who he defended or how he did it (within the constraints of the law). Unless they would see similar insult in SAE employing McVeigh's former lawyer to defend racist's right to be racists
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
March 14 2015 20:23 GMT
#34623
maybe they should change the rules again to require less than a majority.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-14 20:35:16
March 14 2015 20:35 GMT
#34624
Given the historic low temperatures and snowfalls that pummeled the eastern U.S. this winter, it might be easy to overlook how devastating California's winter was as well.

As our “wet” season draws to a close, it is clear that the paltry rain and snowfall have done almost nothing to alleviate epic drought conditions. January was the driest in California since record-keeping began in 1895. Groundwater and snowpack levels are at all-time lows. We're not just up a creek without a paddle in California, we're losing the creek too.

Data from NASA satellites show that the total amount of water stored in the Sacramento and San Joaquin river basins — that is, all of the snow, river and reservoir water, water in soils and groundwater combined — was 34 million acre-feet below normal in 2014. That loss is nearly 1.5 times the capacity of Lake Mead, America's largest reservoir.

Statewide, we've been dropping more than 12 million acre-feet of total water yearly since 2011. Roughly two-thirds of these losses are attributable to groundwater pumping for agricultural irrigation in the Central Valley. Farmers have little choice but to pump more groundwater during droughts, especially when their surface water allocations have been slashed 80% to 100%. But these pumping rates are excessive and unsustainable. Wells are running dry. In some areas of the Central Valley, the land is sinking by one foot or more per year.

As difficult as it may be to face, the simple fact is that California is running out of water — and the problem started before our current drought. NASA data reveal that total water storage in California has been in steady decline since at least 2002, when satellite-based monitoring began, although groundwater depletion has been going on since the early 20th century.

Right now the state has only about one year of water supply left in its reservoirs, and our strategic backup supply, groundwater, is rapidly disappearing. California has no contingency plan for a persistent drought like this one (let alone a 20-plus-year mega-drought), except, apparently, staying in emergency mode and praying for rain.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
March 14 2015 20:38 GMT
#34625
On March 15 2015 05:23 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2015 05:05 dAPhREAk wrote:
seven democrats went across party lines. the eighth appears to be a procedural strategy. they blocked the nomination.

this was an embarrassment for obama.


It's almost always roughly the same group of Democrats. If Republicans get Democratic votes in the Senate you can count on it usually being Joe Manchin and whoever from his crew he can rally. Usually Pryor, Casey, Heitkamp, Donnelly, etc... Keystone, climate, debo, etc.. You see several of the same names come up time and time again.

The only reason I bring it up is that it seems inconsistent for conservatives to rally around the idea that he shouldn't have been nominated because of who he defended or how he did it (within the constraints of the law). Unless they would see similar insult in SAE employing McVeigh's former lawyer to defend racist's right to be racists

SAE getting a lawyer and Obama nominating an AG don't seem to be related.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24354 Posts
March 14 2015 20:49 GMT
#34626
On March 15 2015 05:38 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2015 05:23 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 15 2015 05:05 dAPhREAk wrote:
seven democrats went across party lines. the eighth appears to be a procedural strategy. they blocked the nomination.

this was an embarrassment for obama.


It's almost always roughly the same group of Democrats. If Republicans get Democratic votes in the Senate you can count on it usually being Joe Manchin and whoever from his crew he can rally. Usually Pryor, Casey, Heitkamp, Donnelly, etc... Keystone, climate, debo, etc.. You see several of the same names come up time and time again.

The only reason I bring it up is that it seems inconsistent for conservatives to rally around the idea that he shouldn't have been nominated because of who he defended or how he did it (within the constraints of the law). Unless they would see similar insult in SAE employing McVeigh's former lawyer to defend racist's right to be racists

SAE getting a lawyer and Obama nominating an AG don't seem to be related.


The action isn't much, but the opposition to it is. Either conservatives/the few democrats shouldn't of used Debo's Clients/his legal strategies against him or it's fair to be critical of Jones for his defense of McVeigh.

I'm saying it would be wrong to hold it against either of them. Conservatives seemed to be ok with it though, when it happened to Debo. Maybe conservatives are upset with their senators doing so and just didn't mention it?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
March 14 2015 20:54 GMT
#34627
On March 15 2015 05:49 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2015 05:38 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On March 15 2015 05:23 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 15 2015 05:05 dAPhREAk wrote:
seven democrats went across party lines. the eighth appears to be a procedural strategy. they blocked the nomination.

this was an embarrassment for obama.


It's almost always roughly the same group of Democrats. If Republicans get Democratic votes in the Senate you can count on it usually being Joe Manchin and whoever from his crew he can rally. Usually Pryor, Casey, Heitkamp, Donnelly, etc... Keystone, climate, debo, etc.. You see several of the same names come up time and time again.

The only reason I bring it up is that it seems inconsistent for conservatives to rally around the idea that he shouldn't have been nominated because of who he defended or how he did it (within the constraints of the law). Unless they would see similar insult in SAE employing McVeigh's former lawyer to defend racist's right to be racists

SAE getting a lawyer and Obama nominating an AG don't seem to be related.


The action isn't much, but the opposition to it is. Either conservatives/the few democrats shouldn't of used Debo's Clients/his legal strategies against him or it's fair to be critical of Jones for his defense of McVeigh.

I'm saying it would be wrong to hold it against either of them. Conservatives seemed to be ok with it though, when it happened to Debo. Maybe conservatives are upset with their senators doing so and just didn't mention it?

Unless Jones is also up for a similar position you don't have a point.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24354 Posts
March 14 2015 20:56 GMT
#34628
On March 15 2015 05:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2015 05:49 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 15 2015 05:38 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On March 15 2015 05:23 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 15 2015 05:05 dAPhREAk wrote:
seven democrats went across party lines. the eighth appears to be a procedural strategy. they blocked the nomination.

this was an embarrassment for obama.


It's almost always roughly the same group of Democrats. If Republicans get Democratic votes in the Senate you can count on it usually being Joe Manchin and whoever from his crew he can rally. Usually Pryor, Casey, Heitkamp, Donnelly, etc... Keystone, climate, debo, etc.. You see several of the same names come up time and time again.

The only reason I bring it up is that it seems inconsistent for conservatives to rally around the idea that he shouldn't have been nominated because of who he defended or how he did it (within the constraints of the law). Unless they would see similar insult in SAE employing McVeigh's former lawyer to defend racist's right to be racists

SAE getting a lawyer and Obama nominating an AG don't seem to be related.


The action isn't much, but the opposition to it is. Either conservatives/the few democrats shouldn't of used Debo's Clients/his legal strategies against him or it's fair to be critical of Jones for his defense of McVeigh.

I'm saying it would be wrong to hold it against either of them. Conservatives seemed to be ok with it though, when it happened to Debo. Maybe conservatives are upset with their senators doing so and just didn't mention it?

Unless Jones is also up for a similar position you don't have a point.


I don't think the position has much to do with what opposition is based off of?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
March 14 2015 21:02 GMT
#34629
On March 15 2015 05:56 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2015 05:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On March 15 2015 05:49 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 15 2015 05:38 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On March 15 2015 05:23 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 15 2015 05:05 dAPhREAk wrote:
seven democrats went across party lines. the eighth appears to be a procedural strategy. they blocked the nomination.

this was an embarrassment for obama.


It's almost always roughly the same group of Democrats. If Republicans get Democratic votes in the Senate you can count on it usually being Joe Manchin and whoever from his crew he can rally. Usually Pryor, Casey, Heitkamp, Donnelly, etc... Keystone, climate, debo, etc.. You see several of the same names come up time and time again.

The only reason I bring it up is that it seems inconsistent for conservatives to rally around the idea that he shouldn't have been nominated because of who he defended or how he did it (within the constraints of the law). Unless they would see similar insult in SAE employing McVeigh's former lawyer to defend racist's right to be racists

SAE getting a lawyer and Obama nominating an AG don't seem to be related.


The action isn't much, but the opposition to it is. Either conservatives/the few democrats shouldn't of used Debo's Clients/his legal strategies against him or it's fair to be critical of Jones for his defense of McVeigh.

I'm saying it would be wrong to hold it against either of them. Conservatives seemed to be ok with it though, when it happened to Debo. Maybe conservatives are upset with their senators doing so and just didn't mention it?

Unless Jones is also up for a similar position you don't have a point.


I don't think the position has much to do with what opposition is based off of?

The position is the entire issue...
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-14 21:11:50
March 14 2015 21:11 GMT
#34630
I don't see how the position is the issue. It's not the issue I see. Could you elaborate on your reasoning?
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
March 14 2015 21:16 GMT
#34631
On March 15 2015 06:11 zlefin wrote:
I don't see how the position is the issue. It's not the issue I see. Could you elaborate on your reasoning?

Congress has approval over the position. It's part of their job to review and decide if the person would be a good fit or not. If he was not up for the job, he would not have been criticized.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24354 Posts
March 14 2015 21:52 GMT
#34632
On March 15 2015 06:16 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2015 06:11 zlefin wrote:
I don't see how the position is the issue. It's not the issue I see. Could you elaborate on your reasoning?

Congress has approval over the position. It's part of their job to review and decide if the person would be a good fit or not. If he was not up for the job, he would not have been criticized.


If you think congressional approval has anything to do with what I was talking about, I think this was over before it started.

We aren't talking about the fact they critiqued him, we were supposed to be talking about what they critiqued.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
March 14 2015 21:55 GMT
#34633
On March 15 2015 06:16 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2015 06:11 zlefin wrote:
I don't see how the position is the issue. It's not the issue I see. Could you elaborate on your reasoning?

Congress has approval over the position. It's part of their job to review and decide if the person would be a good fit or not. If he was not up for the job, he would not have been criticized.

The issue to my eye is that of being against lawyers who were doing their job.
Is that clear? I can elaborate further if it is not.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-14 22:02:25
March 14 2015 22:01 GMT
#34634
i think you should read the letter. its not that he was a lawyer representing an accused individual; people were upset about how he did it. also, putting someone who represented a notorious cop killer in a position where coordination with law enforcement officials is important was kind of silly.

http://www.fop.net/publications/archives/letters/2014_0106.pdf
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
March 14 2015 22:11 GMT
#34635
That letter sounds biased to me, and not entirely in conformance with the facts. I can certainly understand the FOP personally disliking the man, but the tone reeks of tribalism by the FOP.
My issue with the cruz statement is also the way it is said; it was with the vehemence of one who objects to the actions, rather than a much softer statement simply noting that the nominee wouldn't work well in the position.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24354 Posts
March 14 2015 22:13 GMT
#34636
On March 15 2015 07:11 zlefin wrote:
That letter sounds biased to me, and not entirely in conformance with the facts. I can certainly understand the FOP personally disliking the man, but the tone reeks of tribalism by the FOP.
My issue with the cruz statement is also the way it is said; it was with the vehemence of one who objects to the actions, rather than a much softer statement simply noting that the nominee wouldn't work well in the position.


As does the letter from the FOP, they emphasized volunteering as if voluntarily defending bad people is in itself something to be denounced.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-14 22:26:10
March 14 2015 22:19 GMT
#34637
On March 15 2015 06:55 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2015 06:16 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On March 15 2015 06:11 zlefin wrote:
I don't see how the position is the issue. It's not the issue I see. Could you elaborate on your reasoning?

Congress has approval over the position. It's part of their job to review and decide if the person would be a good fit or not. If he was not up for the job, he would not have been criticized.

The issue to my eye is that of being against lawyers who were doing their job.
Is that clear? I can elaborate further if it is not.

You're clear, but you are also incorrect. The issue is how fit or not he is fit for the position, not whether or not defense attorneys are bad. His past work is being used to justify his fitness one way or another.

On March 15 2015 06:52 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2015 06:16 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On March 15 2015 06:11 zlefin wrote:
I don't see how the position is the issue. It's not the issue I see. Could you elaborate on your reasoning?

Congress has approval over the position. It's part of their job to review and decide if the person would be a good fit or not. If he was not up for the job, he would not have been criticized.


If you think congressional approval has anything to do with what I was talking about, I think this was over before it started.

We aren't talking about the fact they critiqued him, we were supposed to be talking about what they critiqued.

I know what you and zlefin are trying to say. But their argument was not that 'defense attorneys are bad' and therefore they should be criticizing other defense attorneys for doing attorney stuff.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
March 14 2015 22:24 GMT
#34638
His past work demonstrates he is a skilled attorney who's active in the civil rights area.
And I'm not incorrect, they actual reason they are against him is because of him doing his job.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
March 14 2015 22:40 GMT
#34639
On March 15 2015 07:24 zlefin wrote:
His past work demonstrates he is a skilled attorney who's active in the civil rights area.
And I'm not incorrect, they actual reason they are against him is because of him doing his job.

No.
We all should agree that violent criminals should be punished and we all should agree that those who go out of their way to celebrate, to lionize, convicted cop killers are not suitable for major leadership roles at the Department of Justice.

Your interpretation of the above is incorrect. They are not against him simply because he worked as a defense attorney, and arguing that he did is either intentionally dishonest or a demonstration of very poor reading comprehension. Your choice.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
March 14 2015 22:55 GMT
#34640
Sorry, but you're the one who's wrong. They're objecting to the fact that he took pride in his work, and zealously defended his client (which he's supposed to do).
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
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