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On February 22 2015 08:22 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2015 08:02 Nyxisto wrote:On February 22 2015 07:53 Millitron wrote:
if you didn't watch it, a guy wearing a T-shirt with a swastika on it walks through a gay pride parade. He does nothing but walk; speaks to no one. Barely even looks at anyone. And many paraders sneer and glare. Some shout insults. A few even follow him the entire way through the parade shouting at him.
Bigotry isn't unilateral. Just because you're pro LGBT or whatever doesn't mean you're some paragon of truth. maybe because it's fucking idiotic to wear a symbol that stands for the deaths of tens of millions of people at a gay pride parade? Except it's an ancient symbol from way before the 1940's. Hindus use it, Finland used it, the Greeks and Romans used it. The guy neither said nor did anything to imply he was a Nazi. The crowd jumped to conclusions because they're bigots.
You have to be fucking kidding me. The next time some guy in a Klan costume appears in a black neighbourhood you're going to tell me that maybe he just liked pointy hats?
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On February 22 2015 08:26 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2015 08:22 Millitron wrote:On February 22 2015 08:02 Nyxisto wrote:On February 22 2015 07:53 Millitron wrote:
if you didn't watch it, a guy wearing a T-shirt with a swastika on it walks through a gay pride parade. He does nothing but walk; speaks to no one. Barely even looks at anyone. And many paraders sneer and glare. Some shout insults. A few even follow him the entire way through the parade shouting at him.
Bigotry isn't unilateral. Just because you're pro LGBT or whatever doesn't mean you're some paragon of truth. maybe because it's fucking idiotic to wear a symbol that stands for the deaths of tens of millions of people at a gay pride parade? Except it's an ancient symbol from way before the 1940's. Hindus use it, Finland used it, the Greeks and Romans used it. The guy neither said nor did anything to imply he was a Nazi. The crowd jumped to conclusions because they're bigots. You have to be fucking kidding me. The next time some guy in a Klan costume appears in a black neighbourhood you're going to tell me that maybe he just liked pointy hats?
Did you watch the video?
Did the guy do ANYTHING to offend anyone?
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On February 22 2015 08:43 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2015 08:26 Nyxisto wrote:On February 22 2015 08:22 Millitron wrote:On February 22 2015 08:02 Nyxisto wrote:On February 22 2015 07:53 Millitron wrote:
if you didn't watch it, a guy wearing a T-shirt with a swastika on it walks through a gay pride parade. He does nothing but walk; speaks to no one. Barely even looks at anyone. And many paraders sneer and glare. Some shout insults. A few even follow him the entire way through the parade shouting at him.
Bigotry isn't unilateral. Just because you're pro LGBT or whatever doesn't mean you're some paragon of truth. maybe because it's fucking idiotic to wear a symbol that stands for the deaths of tens of millions of people at a gay pride parade? Except it's an ancient symbol from way before the 1940's. Hindus use it, Finland used it, the Greeks and Romans used it. The guy neither said nor did anything to imply he was a Nazi. The crowd jumped to conclusions because they're bigots. You have to be fucking kidding me. The next time some guy in a Klan costume appears in a black neighbourhood you're going to tell me that maybe he just liked pointy hats? Did you watch the video? Did the guy do ANYTHING to offend anyone?
Yeah, he wore a shirt with a modern meaning that is deeply polarizing and offensive, and knew exactly what he was doing because he did this purely for a "social experiment" and wanted a negative reaction.
Then when he's called out on it, people like you try to defend it by saying "it's not his fault for pretending that modern symbolism doesn't exist, it's everyone else's for not being a historian."
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On February 22 2015 08:43 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2015 08:26 Nyxisto wrote:On February 22 2015 08:22 Millitron wrote:On February 22 2015 08:02 Nyxisto wrote:On February 22 2015 07:53 Millitron wrote:
if you didn't watch it, a guy wearing a T-shirt with a swastika on it walks through a gay pride parade. He does nothing but walk; speaks to no one. Barely even looks at anyone. And many paraders sneer and glare. Some shout insults. A few even follow him the entire way through the parade shouting at him.
Bigotry isn't unilateral. Just because you're pro LGBT or whatever doesn't mean you're some paragon of truth. maybe because it's fucking idiotic to wear a symbol that stands for the deaths of tens of millions of people at a gay pride parade? Except it's an ancient symbol from way before the 1940's. Hindus use it, Finland used it, the Greeks and Romans used it. The guy neither said nor did anything to imply he was a Nazi. The crowd jumped to conclusions because they're bigots. You have to be fucking kidding me. The next time some guy in a Klan costume appears in a black neighbourhood you're going to tell me that maybe he just liked pointy hats? Did you watch the video? Did the guy do ANYTHING to offend anyone?
Just wearing that symbol can be pretty offensive....why do you think he picked that symbol in the first place? It has a fuck ton of baggage attached to it.
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On February 22 2015 08:46 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2015 08:43 Millitron wrote:On February 22 2015 08:26 Nyxisto wrote:On February 22 2015 08:22 Millitron wrote:On February 22 2015 08:02 Nyxisto wrote:On February 22 2015 07:53 Millitron wrote:
if you didn't watch it, a guy wearing a T-shirt with a swastika on it walks through a gay pride parade. He does nothing but walk; speaks to no one. Barely even looks at anyone. And many paraders sneer and glare. Some shout insults. A few even follow him the entire way through the parade shouting at him.
Bigotry isn't unilateral. Just because you're pro LGBT or whatever doesn't mean you're some paragon of truth. maybe because it's fucking idiotic to wear a symbol that stands for the deaths of tens of millions of people at a gay pride parade? Except it's an ancient symbol from way before the 1940's. Hindus use it, Finland used it, the Greeks and Romans used it. The guy neither said nor did anything to imply he was a Nazi. The crowd jumped to conclusions because they're bigots. You have to be fucking kidding me. The next time some guy in a Klan costume appears in a black neighbourhood you're going to tell me that maybe he just liked pointy hats? Did you watch the video? Did the guy do ANYTHING to offend anyone? Yeah, he wore a shirt with a modern meaning that is deeply polarizing and offensive, and knew exactly what he was doing because he did this purely for a "social experiment" and wanted a negative reaction. Then when he's called out on it, people like you try to defend it by saying "it's not his fault for pretending that modern symbolism doesn't exist, it's everyone else's for not being a historian."
It IS everyone's fault for getting worked up when he did nothing but wear a T-shirt. He wasn't shouting anti-Semitic slurs, he wasn't harassing people. He was just walking.
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On February 22 2015 08:48 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2015 08:46 WolfintheSheep wrote:On February 22 2015 08:43 Millitron wrote:On February 22 2015 08:26 Nyxisto wrote:On February 22 2015 08:22 Millitron wrote:On February 22 2015 08:02 Nyxisto wrote:On February 22 2015 07:53 Millitron wrote:
if you didn't watch it, a guy wearing a T-shirt with a swastika on it walks through a gay pride parade. He does nothing but walk; speaks to no one. Barely even looks at anyone. And many paraders sneer and glare. Some shout insults. A few even follow him the entire way through the parade shouting at him.
Bigotry isn't unilateral. Just because you're pro LGBT or whatever doesn't mean you're some paragon of truth. maybe because it's fucking idiotic to wear a symbol that stands for the deaths of tens of millions of people at a gay pride parade? Except it's an ancient symbol from way before the 1940's. Hindus use it, Finland used it, the Greeks and Romans used it. The guy neither said nor did anything to imply he was a Nazi. The crowd jumped to conclusions because they're bigots. You have to be fucking kidding me. The next time some guy in a Klan costume appears in a black neighbourhood you're going to tell me that maybe he just liked pointy hats? Did you watch the video? Did the guy do ANYTHING to offend anyone? Yeah, he wore a shirt with a modern meaning that is deeply polarizing and offensive, and knew exactly what he was doing because he did this purely for a "social experiment" and wanted a negative reaction. Then when he's called out on it, people like you try to defend it by saying "it's not his fault for pretending that modern symbolism doesn't exist, it's everyone else's for not being a historian." It IS everyone's fault for getting worked up when he did nothing but wear a T-shirt. He wasn't shouting anti-Semitic slurs, he wasn't harassing people. He was just walking.
Remind me to make up some "9/11 was a good day" shirts and signs and hang them everywhere.
It's everyone else's fault if they have a problem with it, I just had a really good day one year that happened to be on September 11th and I wanted to share it for no reason whatsoever.
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You do know that the clothing you wear broadcast things to the surrounding people yes? A symbol is only useful if it is seen. Just wearing that is communication in itself, especially in the middle of a gay pride parade....a lot of people could reasonably view this as some kind of statement being made against them using that symbol.
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On February 22 2015 08:48 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2015 08:46 WolfintheSheep wrote:On February 22 2015 08:43 Millitron wrote:On February 22 2015 08:26 Nyxisto wrote:On February 22 2015 08:22 Millitron wrote:On February 22 2015 08:02 Nyxisto wrote:On February 22 2015 07:53 Millitron wrote:
if you didn't watch it, a guy wearing a T-shirt with a swastika on it walks through a gay pride parade. He does nothing but walk; speaks to no one. Barely even looks at anyone. And many paraders sneer and glare. Some shout insults. A few even follow him the entire way through the parade shouting at him.
Bigotry isn't unilateral. Just because you're pro LGBT or whatever doesn't mean you're some paragon of truth. maybe because it's fucking idiotic to wear a symbol that stands for the deaths of tens of millions of people at a gay pride parade? Except it's an ancient symbol from way before the 1940's. Hindus use it, Finland used it, the Greeks and Romans used it. The guy neither said nor did anything to imply he was a Nazi. The crowd jumped to conclusions because they're bigots. You have to be fucking kidding me. The next time some guy in a Klan costume appears in a black neighbourhood you're going to tell me that maybe he just liked pointy hats? Did you watch the video? Did the guy do ANYTHING to offend anyone? Yeah, he wore a shirt with a modern meaning that is deeply polarizing and offensive, and knew exactly what he was doing because he did this purely for a "social experiment" and wanted a negative reaction. Then when he's called out on it, people like you try to defend it by saying "it's not his fault for pretending that modern symbolism doesn't exist, it's everyone else's for not being a historian." It IS everyone's fault for getting worked up when he did nothing but wear a T-shirt. He wasn't shouting anti-Semitic slurs, he wasn't harassing people. He was just walking.
And do you realize that you can also send a message without saying anything?
Wearing a swastika is a clear pro nazi synmbol is many european countries. A symbol of people who prosecuted and killed homosexuals. Why dont you understand this?
You can not not communicate
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The swastika USED to have different meaning. That meaning is long since gone. I'm afraid the nazis ruined that shit for everyone. Now it means only one thing and that is genocide, period.
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On February 22 2015 08:48 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2015 08:46 WolfintheSheep wrote:On February 22 2015 08:43 Millitron wrote:On February 22 2015 08:26 Nyxisto wrote:On February 22 2015 08:22 Millitron wrote:On February 22 2015 08:02 Nyxisto wrote:On February 22 2015 07:53 Millitron wrote:
if you didn't watch it, a guy wearing a T-shirt with a swastika on it walks through a gay pride parade. He does nothing but walk; speaks to no one. Barely even looks at anyone. And many paraders sneer and glare. Some shout insults. A few even follow him the entire way through the parade shouting at him.
Bigotry isn't unilateral. Just because you're pro LGBT or whatever doesn't mean you're some paragon of truth. maybe because it's fucking idiotic to wear a symbol that stands for the deaths of tens of millions of people at a gay pride parade? Except it's an ancient symbol from way before the 1940's. Hindus use it, Finland used it, the Greeks and Romans used it. The guy neither said nor did anything to imply he was a Nazi. The crowd jumped to conclusions because they're bigots. You have to be fucking kidding me. The next time some guy in a Klan costume appears in a black neighbourhood you're going to tell me that maybe he just liked pointy hats? Did you watch the video? Did the guy do ANYTHING to offend anyone? Yeah, he wore a shirt with a modern meaning that is deeply polarizing and offensive, and knew exactly what he was doing because he did this purely for a "social experiment" and wanted a negative reaction. Then when he's called out on it, people like you try to defend it by saying "it's not his fault for pretending that modern symbolism doesn't exist, it's everyone else's for not being a historian." It IS everyone's fault for getting worked up when he did nothing but wear a T-shirt. He wasn't shouting anti-Semitic slurs, he wasn't harassing people. He was just walking.
what would you think had he done the same not with a t-shirt but carrying a sign that has written out anti-semitic or anti-gay slurs? Would that be okay because it's only written and he never spoke it out?
Would it be okay to go around carrying a sign that doesn't have it written out in letters but with a concise symbol?
Why is it in your opinion perfectly fine to do the exact same thing as long as it's not in a vocal matter?
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I'm gonna say you're wrong millitron (on this general argument), the guy knew what he was doing, and was intentionally messing with people.
Nor did he make any effort to dissociate himself from the most known meaning of the symbol in the nearby area.
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i hear you millitron,
when i walk through the immigrant neighborhoods of my city,
with my "i hate nigglers" shirt, you won't believe the looks i get.
and no, not primarily from actual nigglers, but those bleeding
politically correctness nazis. it's very unfair, and nobody, nobody
is talking about this kind of oppression that happens every
single day that i happen to stroll over there with that shirt.
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On February 22 2015 08:22 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2015 08:02 Nyxisto wrote:On February 22 2015 07:53 Millitron wrote:
if you didn't watch it, a guy wearing a T-shirt with a swastika on it walks through a gay pride parade. He does nothing but walk; speaks to no one. Barely even looks at anyone. And many paraders sneer and glare. Some shout insults. A few even follow him the entire way through the parade shouting at him.
Bigotry isn't unilateral. Just because you're pro LGBT or whatever doesn't mean you're some paragon of truth. maybe because it's fucking idiotic to wear a symbol that stands for the deaths of tens of millions of people at a gay pride parade? Except it's an ancient symbol from way before the 1940's. Hindus use it, Finland used it, the Greeks and Romans used it. The guy neither said nor did anything to imply he was a Nazi. The crowd jumped to conclusions because they're bigots.
First, it doesn't matter when and how it was used in the past, but what communicates to persons nowadays. And it means fascism.
Second he is not only wearing a tshirt with an swastika on it, he is also wearing militar boots and the complete kit to look like a neonazi. It was crystal clear his intention was to look like a neonazi. The crowd didn't jump into any conclussion since he made it transparent enough.
Third, people shouting at him are shouting "Down with the right wing, Down with the fascism. Down with the Nazis" "Fascist!" "Fascism out of Chile". Not insults. I didn't hear even a single one, except Fascist, which is pretty much an insult because its historical connotations. And if you check Chile's recent history, you could understand the aversion for fascism on that country.
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I do have a 'punk' friend who used to have a shaved head and wore a pin/button that had a swastika with the no symbol through it (like a no smoking sign).
Sometimes people would get all bent about the pin without realizing the giant crossing out of the swastika.
Now that would be people just jumping to conclusions taking his punk look and the symbol and ignoring what the guy is actually saying/representing.
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Shipping companies and dock workers reached a tentative deal Friday night after labor disputes jammed the movement of cargo in and out of ports up and down the West Coast.
From a bluff in San Pedro that overlooks the massive ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach, you can still see the silhouettes of giant ships that line the horizon.
This is the backlog of container ships anchored out on the ocean.
Down at Pierpoint Landing in Long Beach, captain Kevin Nguyen is at the helm of a Harbor Breeze tour cruise.
He's set course for the massive LA and Long Beach port complex — the biggest in the country. The farther out the tour goes, the more cargo ships start to appear. These massive vessels tower over Nguyen's boat, loaded with stacks upon stacks of thousands of containers.
Behind these cargo ships are dozens more.
Source
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On February 22 2015 09:39 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2015 08:22 Millitron wrote:On February 22 2015 08:02 Nyxisto wrote:On February 22 2015 07:53 Millitron wrote:
if you didn't watch it, a guy wearing a T-shirt with a swastika on it walks through a gay pride parade. He does nothing but walk; speaks to no one. Barely even looks at anyone. And many paraders sneer and glare. Some shout insults. A few even follow him the entire way through the parade shouting at him.
Bigotry isn't unilateral. Just because you're pro LGBT or whatever doesn't mean you're some paragon of truth. maybe because it's fucking idiotic to wear a symbol that stands for the deaths of tens of millions of people at a gay pride parade? Except it's an ancient symbol from way before the 1940's. Hindus use it, Finland used it, the Greeks and Romans used it. The guy neither said nor did anything to imply he was a Nazi. The crowd jumped to conclusions because they're bigots. First, it doesn't matter when and how it was used in the past, but what communicates to persons nowadays. And it means fascism. Second he is not only wearing a tshirt with an swastika on it, he is also wearing militar boots and the complete kit to look like a neonazi. It was crystal clear his intention was to look like a neonazi. The crowd didn't jump into any conclussion since he made it transparent enough. Third, people shouting at him are shouting "Down with the right wing, Down with the fascism. Down with the Nazis" "Fascist!" "Fascism out of Chile". Not insults. I didn't hear even a single one, except Fascist, which is pretty much an insult because its historical connotations. And if you check Chile's recent history, you could understand the aversion for fascism on that country.
This whole thing is incredibly weird. A guy dresses like a nazi, and gets treated like a nazi. What is the argument being made here? That people should be nicer to nazis?
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I'm sure Moltke Warding and the rest of the philosophical/post-modern crew here might find fault with what's written, but this is basically coming in philosophical layman's terms, so bear with me.
So here's where the issue of that guy wearing that shirt in a rally breaks down.
Words are symbols. They are written or verbal objects that represent meaning that is communally agreed upon. This is language.
Non-written symbols themselves can also carry socially agreed upon meanings, and are a component of this language/culture.
The swastika has a very agreed upon, offensive meaning in modern culture. It doesn't matter what it used to represent. That's like saying calling someone a "dick" isn't offensive, because I'm actually really just calling you "Richard". Sure, 300 years ago that might be true. But that word doesn't carry that meaning anymore. The irony is that this is a poor example, because dick actually can be used in that context, whereas the common meaning behind a swastika in modern culture is clearly defined as really only has one usage: in reference to Nazis.
That guy carrying a swastika in a gay-pride march is basically the same as him using a bunch of verbal symbols to say "gay people should be rounded up and murdered en mass in death camps". They are all symbols that carry a shared, agreed upon meaning. One series of symbols (the verbal ones) conveys very specific meaning, whereas the other is a bit more general in that it is a symbol that is generally agreed upon as representing a particular ideology that ascribes to those beliefs, but you get the drift.
I mean, honestly, it's pretty much the same for a person to attend a gay rights protest shouting "FAGS SHOULD ALL BE MURDERED". Is this reasonable? He's just using symbols to convey meaning to other human beings. They're just verbal symbols, not images.
You could argue "but he's not actually MURDERING gay people", so it should be fine. This is basically what you're arguing when you're saying "but he's not actually DOING anything" (which implies people should leave him alone, I guess?). And to some extent I would agree, in that free speech is an important right to protect so he shouldn't necessarily be legally imprisoned for his actions. But anyone who does that deserves to be publicly shamed, ridiculed, called an asshole, bigot, etc., and essentially become a societal outcast.
It's not an intelligent "social experiment". It's just a stupid stunt pulled by someone who actually hasn't thought clearly about what he's doing.
Oh yeah, and that guy is a "dick". You too, if you actually think what he did is appropriate. I'll leave it to you to figure out which meaning I am referring to when I use that particular "symbol".
Also, next to hannabelle's rant on vaccines, that was one of the stupidest things I've ever heard of being posted on TL.
Congratulations, Millitron.
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No one with any sense is going to find that video to be a relevant social experiment. The guy has the sense of a preteen pseudo-intellectual and recorded it, good job. Sure showed everyone!
He's got every right in the world to wear that. No one assaulted him, his civil rights weren't violated. People reacted properly to him. They ridiculed and ostracized him as they should have, that is the correct thing to do. No one beat him or killed him, that is the correct thing to do.
There is no need to tolerate intolerant people, they shouldn't be tolerated at all.
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On February 22 2015 07:53 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2015 23:41 BallinWitStalin wrote:On February 21 2015 10:18 IgnE wrote:On February 21 2015 08:27 hannahbelle wrote:On February 21 2015 07:52 Stratos_speAr wrote:
you also know you're on the wrong side of human rights when you can replace the words "LGBT" in your argument with "Black people/Jews/insertminorityhere" and the argument becomes one that was routinely used by bigots throughout history.
I substitute the word pedophile in there too. I'm just 10 years ahead of my time I guess. But seriously, HB, are you just trolling or do you really not see the difference between pedophiles and gays? Nice. I leave the thread for a few days and come back to hannahbelle comparing gays to pedophiles. I am actually not surprised by this. Either we're dealing with a master level troll or someone whose viewpoints are so absurd it's not even worth responding to. Or maybe he's pointing out how the whole "substitute x for black people/jews/minority" thing is really stupid. You can practically substitute just about any group in for x. Check out this social experiment: + Show Spoiler +if you didn't watch it, a guy wearing a T-shirt with a swastika on it walks through a gay pride parade. He does nothing but walk; speaks to no one. Barely even looks at anyone. And many paraders sneer and glare. Some shout insults. A few even follow him the entire way through the parade shouting at him. Bigotry isn't unilateral. Just because you're pro LGBT or whatever doesn't mean you're some paragon of truth.
It's OK to be bigoted against really bad stuff, like gassing Jews, molesting children or net decking the latest cancer bs.
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For years, politicians wanting to block legislation on climate change have bolstered their arguments by pointing to the work of a handful of scientists who claim that greenhouse gases pose little risk to humanity.
One of the names they invoke most often is Wei-Hock Soon, known as Willie, a scientist at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics who claims that variations in the sun’s energy can largely explain recent global warming. He has often appeared on conservative news programs, testified before Congress and in state capitals, and starred at conferences of people who deny the risks of global warming.
But newly released documents show the extent to which Dr. Soon’s work has been tied to funding he received from corporate interests.
He has accepted more than $1.2 million in money from the fossil-fuel industry over the last decade while failing to disclose that conflict of interest in most of his scientific papers. At least 11 papers he has published since 2008 omitted such a disclosure, and in at least eight of those cases, he appears to have violated ethical guidelines of the journals that published his work.
The documents show that Dr. Soon, in correspondence with his corporate funders, described many of his scientific papers as “deliverables” that he completed in exchange for their money. He used the same term to describe testimony he prepared for Congress.
Though Dr. Soon did not respond to questions about the documents, he has long stated that his corporate funding has not influenced his scientific findings.
The documents were obtained by Greenpeace, the environmental group, under the Freedom of Information Act. Greenpeace and an allied group, the Climate Investigations Center, shared them with several news organizations last week.
The documents shed light on the role of scientists like Dr. Soon in fostering public debate over whether human activity is causing global warming. The vast majority of experts have concluded that it is and that greenhouse emissions pose long-term risks to civilization.
Historians and sociologists of science say that since the tobacco wars of the 1960s, corporations trying to block legislation that hurts their interests have employed a strategy of creating the appearance of scientific doubt, usually with the help of ostensibly independent researchers who accept industry funding.
Fossil-fuel interests have followed this approach for years, but the mechanics of their activities remained largely hidden.
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