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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On December 29 2014 19:16 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2014 14:26 cLAN.Anax wrote:On December 29 2014 11:38 oneofthem wrote:On December 29 2014 09:46 GreenHorizons wrote:FRESNO, Calif. – Farmers already scrambling to find workers in California — the nation's leading grower of fruits, vegetables and nuts — fear an even greater labor shortage under President Barack Obama's executive action to block some 5 million people from deportation.
Thousands of the state's farmworkers, who make up a significant portion of those who will benefit, may choose to leave the uncertainty of their seasonal jobs for steady, year-around work building homes, cooking in restaurants and cleaning hotel rooms.
Manuel Cunha, president of the Fresno-based Nisei Farmers League, estimates that 85 percent of California's agricultural workers are using false documents to obtain work.
Cunha, who has advised the Obama administration on immigration policy, figures that 50,000 of the state's farmworkers who may benefit from the president's executive action could leave the fields and packing houses in California's $46.4 billion agricultural industry.
"How do I replace that?" he said. "I think we're going to have a problem." Source"But what will I do without my workers criminality to hold over their head and trap them in the job I want them to do?!" Just wow... fuck those slave masters It'd be nice if our citizens obeyed the law and didn't hire illegal aliens. It'd be nice if immigrants didn't emigrate here illegally. It'd be nice if our laws allowed more law-abiding people to emigrate here legally at a faster pace. Farmers and their employees played the immigration lottery. They lost. I don't sympathize for people who knew better. But then those farmers would have to pay people more to do the shitty jobs that apparently noone wants except for those who have no choice whatsoever. I don't get it. If you pay people more, you will find more people willing to do the work. The problem is not that they can't find anyone to do their shitty seasonal agriculture work, it is that they can't find enough people so desperate to do it with such shitty pay anymore now that these people actually have some perspective in their lives. But then complaining about it is just... insane.
You can blame our minimum wage for this. If I were unemployed, I'd rather be working a bad job and pulling myself up than playing the lottery for a good one. The problem is indeed not that farmers can't find people willing to do the work; the problem is people can't offer to work for less than what the government sets as the minimum wage.
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On December 30 2014 06:05 cLAN.Anax wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2014 19:16 Simberto wrote:On December 29 2014 14:26 cLAN.Anax wrote:On December 29 2014 11:38 oneofthem wrote:On December 29 2014 09:46 GreenHorizons wrote:FRESNO, Calif. – Farmers already scrambling to find workers in California — the nation's leading grower of fruits, vegetables and nuts — fear an even greater labor shortage under President Barack Obama's executive action to block some 5 million people from deportation.
Thousands of the state's farmworkers, who make up a significant portion of those who will benefit, may choose to leave the uncertainty of their seasonal jobs for steady, year-around work building homes, cooking in restaurants and cleaning hotel rooms.
Manuel Cunha, president of the Fresno-based Nisei Farmers League, estimates that 85 percent of California's agricultural workers are using false documents to obtain work.
Cunha, who has advised the Obama administration on immigration policy, figures that 50,000 of the state's farmworkers who may benefit from the president's executive action could leave the fields and packing houses in California's $46.4 billion agricultural industry.
"How do I replace that?" he said. "I think we're going to have a problem." Source"But what will I do without my workers criminality to hold over their head and trap them in the job I want them to do?!" Just wow... fuck those slave masters It'd be nice if our citizens obeyed the law and didn't hire illegal aliens. It'd be nice if immigrants didn't emigrate here illegally. It'd be nice if our laws allowed more law-abiding people to emigrate here legally at a faster pace. Farmers and their employees played the immigration lottery. They lost. I don't sympathize for people who knew better. But then those farmers would have to pay people more to do the shitty jobs that apparently noone wants except for those who have no choice whatsoever. I don't get it. If you pay people more, you will find more people willing to do the work. The problem is not that they can't find anyone to do their shitty seasonal agriculture work, it is that they can't find enough people so desperate to do it with such shitty pay anymore now that these people actually have some perspective in their lives. But then complaining about it is just... insane. You can blame our minimum wage for this. If I were unemployed, I'd rather be working a bad job and pulling myself up than playing the lottery for a good one. The problem is indeed not that farmers can't find people willing to do the work; the problem is people can't offer to work for less than what the government sets as the minimum wage.
Because back in the days before minimum wage it was good times all around, right?
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On December 30 2014 06:04 xDaunt wrote:
Haven't we learned by now that relying upon loaded press pieces as definitive accounts of what happened is not a good idea?
Haven't we learned to actually assert what is inaccurate/'loaded' instead of using blanket dismissals of stories we don't like by now?
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On December 30 2014 06:13 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2014 06:05 cLAN.Anax wrote:On December 29 2014 19:16 Simberto wrote:On December 29 2014 14:26 cLAN.Anax wrote:On December 29 2014 11:38 oneofthem wrote:On December 29 2014 09:46 GreenHorizons wrote:FRESNO, Calif. – Farmers already scrambling to find workers in California — the nation's leading grower of fruits, vegetables and nuts — fear an even greater labor shortage under President Barack Obama's executive action to block some 5 million people from deportation.
Thousands of the state's farmworkers, who make up a significant portion of those who will benefit, may choose to leave the uncertainty of their seasonal jobs for steady, year-around work building homes, cooking in restaurants and cleaning hotel rooms.
Manuel Cunha, president of the Fresno-based Nisei Farmers League, estimates that 85 percent of California's agricultural workers are using false documents to obtain work.
Cunha, who has advised the Obama administration on immigration policy, figures that 50,000 of the state's farmworkers who may benefit from the president's executive action could leave the fields and packing houses in California's $46.4 billion agricultural industry.
"How do I replace that?" he said. "I think we're going to have a problem." Source"But what will I do without my workers criminality to hold over their head and trap them in the job I want them to do?!" Just wow... fuck those slave masters It'd be nice if our citizens obeyed the law and didn't hire illegal aliens. It'd be nice if immigrants didn't emigrate here illegally. It'd be nice if our laws allowed more law-abiding people to emigrate here legally at a faster pace. Farmers and their employees played the immigration lottery. They lost. I don't sympathize for people who knew better. But then those farmers would have to pay people more to do the shitty jobs that apparently noone wants except for those who have no choice whatsoever. I don't get it. If you pay people more, you will find more people willing to do the work. The problem is not that they can't find anyone to do their shitty seasonal agriculture work, it is that they can't find enough people so desperate to do it with such shitty pay anymore now that these people actually have some perspective in their lives. But then complaining about it is just... insane. You can blame our minimum wage for this. If I were unemployed, I'd rather be working a bad job and pulling myself up than playing the lottery for a good one. The problem is indeed not that farmers can't find people willing to do the work; the problem is people can't offer to work for less than what the government sets as the minimum wage. Because back in the days before minimum wage it was good times all around, right?
We also didn't have much of an immigration problem, right? Used to be a pretty good thing for the U.S.
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On December 30 2014 06:26 cLAN.Anax wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2014 06:13 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On December 30 2014 06:05 cLAN.Anax wrote:On December 29 2014 19:16 Simberto wrote:On December 29 2014 14:26 cLAN.Anax wrote:On December 29 2014 11:38 oneofthem wrote:On December 29 2014 09:46 GreenHorizons wrote:FRESNO, Calif. – Farmers already scrambling to find workers in California — the nation's leading grower of fruits, vegetables and nuts — fear an even greater labor shortage under President Barack Obama's executive action to block some 5 million people from deportation.
Thousands of the state's farmworkers, who make up a significant portion of those who will benefit, may choose to leave the uncertainty of their seasonal jobs for steady, year-around work building homes, cooking in restaurants and cleaning hotel rooms.
Manuel Cunha, president of the Fresno-based Nisei Farmers League, estimates that 85 percent of California's agricultural workers are using false documents to obtain work.
Cunha, who has advised the Obama administration on immigration policy, figures that 50,000 of the state's farmworkers who may benefit from the president's executive action could leave the fields and packing houses in California's $46.4 billion agricultural industry.
"How do I replace that?" he said. "I think we're going to have a problem." Source"But what will I do without my workers criminality to hold over their head and trap them in the job I want them to do?!" Just wow... fuck those slave masters It'd be nice if our citizens obeyed the law and didn't hire illegal aliens. It'd be nice if immigrants didn't emigrate here illegally. It'd be nice if our laws allowed more law-abiding people to emigrate here legally at a faster pace. Farmers and their employees played the immigration lottery. They lost. I don't sympathize for people who knew better. But then those farmers would have to pay people more to do the shitty jobs that apparently noone wants except for those who have no choice whatsoever. I don't get it. If you pay people more, you will find more people willing to do the work. The problem is not that they can't find anyone to do their shitty seasonal agriculture work, it is that they can't find enough people so desperate to do it with such shitty pay anymore now that these people actually have some perspective in their lives. But then complaining about it is just... insane. You can blame our minimum wage for this. If I were unemployed, I'd rather be working a bad job and pulling myself up than playing the lottery for a good one. The problem is indeed not that farmers can't find people willing to do the work; the problem is people can't offer to work for less than what the government sets as the minimum wage. Because back in the days before minimum wage it was good times all around, right? We also didn't have much of an immigration problem, right? Used to be a pretty good thing for the U.S.
What? Do you understand why the US population is so large today? Immigration via Asia, but mainly Ireland, Europe etc. The expansion Westward, the Industrial Age were major marked large surges in population due to Immigrants. Even during the Civil War people kept coming here. And no they did not come here "legally" either.
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On December 30 2014 06:25 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2014 06:04 xDaunt wrote:
Haven't we learned by now that relying upon loaded press pieces as definitive accounts of what happened is not a good idea? Haven't we learned to actually assert what is inaccurate/'loaded' instead of using blanket dismissals of stories we don't like by now?
Why bother? You posted a slew of "stories" in support of your campaign to convince the world that cops are a bunch of racists. Each story is so obviously deficient in factual content that it is self-evident to anyone paying attention that there is something wrong. Just take the Tarika Wilson story as one example. Reading that stupid little blurb that you posted in the context of your argument that cops are a bunch of racists, one would think that a cop saw and shot at her and her baby. It doesn't take much research to see that this wasn't the case and that there is a pretty good reason why the cop in question was acquitted of criminal charges. Of course, I don't think anyone needs to guess as to why you omitted that part.
Long story short, it's time for you to take your tiresome "cops (and everyone else who disagrees with you) are a bunch of racists" campaign elsewhere.
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On December 30 2014 06:05 cLAN.Anax wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2014 19:16 Simberto wrote:On December 29 2014 14:26 cLAN.Anax wrote:On December 29 2014 11:38 oneofthem wrote:On December 29 2014 09:46 GreenHorizons wrote:FRESNO, Calif. – Farmers already scrambling to find workers in California — the nation's leading grower of fruits, vegetables and nuts — fear an even greater labor shortage under President Barack Obama's executive action to block some 5 million people from deportation.
Thousands of the state's farmworkers, who make up a significant portion of those who will benefit, may choose to leave the uncertainty of their seasonal jobs for steady, year-around work building homes, cooking in restaurants and cleaning hotel rooms.
Manuel Cunha, president of the Fresno-based Nisei Farmers League, estimates that 85 percent of California's agricultural workers are using false documents to obtain work.
Cunha, who has advised the Obama administration on immigration policy, figures that 50,000 of the state's farmworkers who may benefit from the president's executive action could leave the fields and packing houses in California's $46.4 billion agricultural industry.
"How do I replace that?" he said. "I think we're going to have a problem." Source"But what will I do without my workers criminality to hold over their head and trap them in the job I want them to do?!" Just wow... fuck those slave masters It'd be nice if our citizens obeyed the law and didn't hire illegal aliens. It'd be nice if immigrants didn't emigrate here illegally. It'd be nice if our laws allowed more law-abiding people to emigrate here legally at a faster pace. Farmers and their employees played the immigration lottery. They lost. I don't sympathize for people who knew better. But then those farmers would have to pay people more to do the shitty jobs that apparently noone wants except for those who have no choice whatsoever. I don't get it. If you pay people more, you will find more people willing to do the work. The problem is not that they can't find anyone to do their shitty seasonal agriculture work, it is that they can't find enough people so desperate to do it with such shitty pay anymore now that these people actually have some perspective in their lives. But then complaining about it is just... insane. You can blame our minimum wage for this. If I were unemployed, I'd rather be working a bad job and pulling myself up than playing the lottery for a good one. The problem is indeed not that farmers can't find people willing to do the work; the problem is people can't offer to work for less than what the government sets as the minimum wage.
What do you do right now?
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On December 30 2014 06:05 cLAN.Anax wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2014 19:16 Simberto wrote:On December 29 2014 14:26 cLAN.Anax wrote:On December 29 2014 11:38 oneofthem wrote:On December 29 2014 09:46 GreenHorizons wrote:FRESNO, Calif. – Farmers already scrambling to find workers in California — the nation's leading grower of fruits, vegetables and nuts — fear an even greater labor shortage under President Barack Obama's executive action to block some 5 million people from deportation.
Thousands of the state's farmworkers, who make up a significant portion of those who will benefit, may choose to leave the uncertainty of their seasonal jobs for steady, year-around work building homes, cooking in restaurants and cleaning hotel rooms.
Manuel Cunha, president of the Fresno-based Nisei Farmers League, estimates that 85 percent of California's agricultural workers are using false documents to obtain work.
Cunha, who has advised the Obama administration on immigration policy, figures that 50,000 of the state's farmworkers who may benefit from the president's executive action could leave the fields and packing houses in California's $46.4 billion agricultural industry.
"How do I replace that?" he said. "I think we're going to have a problem." Source"But what will I do without my workers criminality to hold over their head and trap them in the job I want them to do?!" Just wow... fuck those slave masters It'd be nice if our citizens obeyed the law and didn't hire illegal aliens. It'd be nice if immigrants didn't emigrate here illegally. It'd be nice if our laws allowed more law-abiding people to emigrate here legally at a faster pace. Farmers and their employees played the immigration lottery. They lost. I don't sympathize for people who knew better. But then those farmers would have to pay people more to do the shitty jobs that apparently noone wants except for those who have no choice whatsoever. I don't get it. If you pay people more, you will find more people willing to do the work. The problem is not that they can't find anyone to do their shitty seasonal agriculture work, it is that they can't find enough people so desperate to do it with such shitty pay anymore now that these people actually have some perspective in their lives. But then complaining about it is just... insane. You can blame our minimum wage for this. If I were unemployed, I'd rather be working a bad job and pulling myself up than playing the lottery for a good one. The problem is indeed not that farmers can't find people willing to do the work; the problem is people can't offer to work for less than what the government sets as the minimum wage.
I don't think you understand the situation completely. The problem is that people aren't working these laborious jobs at the current minimum wage because the pay is too low. If you took away the minimum wage and offered to pay them less why in the world would they suddenly want to work there?
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On December 30 2014 06:34 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2014 06:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 30 2014 06:04 xDaunt wrote:
Haven't we learned by now that relying upon loaded press pieces as definitive accounts of what happened is not a good idea? Haven't we learned to actually assert what is inaccurate/'loaded' instead of using blanket dismissals of stories we don't like by now? Why bother? You posted a slew of "stories" in support of your campaign to convince the world that cops are a bunch of racists. Each story is so obviously deficient in factual content that it is self-evident to anyone paying attention that there is something wrong. Just take the Tarika Wilson story as one example. Reading that stupid little blurb that you posted in the context of your argument that cops are a bunch of racists, one would think that a cop saw and shot at her and her baby. It doesn't take much research to see that this wasn't the case and that there is a pretty good reason why the cop in question was acquitted of criminal charges. Of course, I don't think anyone needs to guess as to why you omitted that part. Long story short, it's time for you to take your tiresome "cops (and everyone else who disagrees with you) are a bunch of racists" campaign elsewhere.
We can start by not arguing against something I am not arguing. I am not suggesting 'cops are a bunch of racists' I'm suggesting deep seated racial prejudices (often that the people are unaware of) are manifested into reality by cops and others and empathized by the peers who assess whether what happened was just or not.
Of course, I don't think anyone needs to guess as to why you omitted that part.
I notice you didn't bother posting what you thought I should of either... I don't think anyone needs to guess why you omitted that part.
Apparently we disagree about whether hearing your fellow officers shooting at dogs is a legitimate reason to start blindly (unless the thought is he intentionally targeted the woman and child) shooting into a house killing a mother and injuring an infant. We also disagree about whether it was negligence. Unless there are some other 'facts' you are reading about why they shot her or why her family ended up getting a wrongful death settlement?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but winning a wrongful death lawsuit means that the jury decided that the evidence shows (without the 'beyond a reasonable doubt' requirement) the person acted wrongly and those wrong actions led to the victims wrongful death, no? EDIT: I guess it was a settlement so no one admitted to doing anything wrong, just that they owed the victims and their lawyers almost $3 million for not doing anything wrong...
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On December 30 2014 02:42 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +A bill that would allow New Jersey municipalities to sell their public water utilities to private, for-profit corporations without putting the measure to voters is awaiting Gov. Chris Christie’s signature.
Until now, any municipality in New Jersey that sought to sell off its water system to a private bidder had to hold a public vote. But a bill passed with bipartisan support by the state’s Senate last week would allow municipalities with aging and deteriorating water systems to put their systems up for sale without holding a referendum.
While supporters of the bill say privatizing water systems could save municipalities money, it allows companies to factor the purchase price of the systems into the rates they charge customers, meaning taxpayers could ultimately be on the hook for the sale of their water systems.
Many New Jersey municipalities have turned to privatization as a way to get quick cash infusions for their deteriorating water systems. According to the Environmental Protection Agency, the state would need $41 billion over the next 20 years to repair its water, stormwater and wastewater systems.
“We’re an old, industrial state, and water infrastructure was built a long, long time ago,” said Lawrence Hajna, a spokesman for the state’s Department of Environmental Protection, which has not taken a position on the bill. “We’ve spent billions on upgrading, but there’s still a lot more to do.”
If the bill is enacted, New Jersey would join several other states, including Illinois, Pennsylvania and California, where ballot measures are not required to sell water systems to private developers. Source I'm pretty amazed that suddenly bipartisan support in the state legislatures makes them not the people's representatives. I've seen much talk about the joys of bipartisan compromise, but I suppose that ends with ideological opposition. Then the voters need direct input. And I think if that too fails to achieve the desired outcome, I see an article about how dumb the voters are, anyways. If they got enough New Jersey democrats on board to pass, they must be choosing not to report what swayed them from the supporters. In my state, impact on finances is considered second to last or dead last in that party.
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On December 30 2014 07:02 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2014 06:05 cLAN.Anax wrote:On December 29 2014 19:16 Simberto wrote:On December 29 2014 14:26 cLAN.Anax wrote:On December 29 2014 11:38 oneofthem wrote:On December 29 2014 09:46 GreenHorizons wrote:FRESNO, Calif. – Farmers already scrambling to find workers in California — the nation's leading grower of fruits, vegetables and nuts — fear an even greater labor shortage under President Barack Obama's executive action to block some 5 million people from deportation.
Thousands of the state's farmworkers, who make up a significant portion of those who will benefit, may choose to leave the uncertainty of their seasonal jobs for steady, year-around work building homes, cooking in restaurants and cleaning hotel rooms.
Manuel Cunha, president of the Fresno-based Nisei Farmers League, estimates that 85 percent of California's agricultural workers are using false documents to obtain work.
Cunha, who has advised the Obama administration on immigration policy, figures that 50,000 of the state's farmworkers who may benefit from the president's executive action could leave the fields and packing houses in California's $46.4 billion agricultural industry.
"How do I replace that?" he said. "I think we're going to have a problem." Source"But what will I do without my workers criminality to hold over their head and trap them in the job I want them to do?!" Just wow... fuck those slave masters It'd be nice if our citizens obeyed the law and didn't hire illegal aliens. It'd be nice if immigrants didn't emigrate here illegally. It'd be nice if our laws allowed more law-abiding people to emigrate here legally at a faster pace. Farmers and their employees played the immigration lottery. They lost. I don't sympathize for people who knew better. But then those farmers would have to pay people more to do the shitty jobs that apparently noone wants except for those who have no choice whatsoever. I don't get it. If you pay people more, you will find more people willing to do the work. The problem is not that they can't find anyone to do their shitty seasonal agriculture work, it is that they can't find enough people so desperate to do it with such shitty pay anymore now that these people actually have some perspective in their lives. But then complaining about it is just... insane. You can blame our minimum wage for this. If I were unemployed, I'd rather be working a bad job and pulling myself up than playing the lottery for a good one. The problem is indeed not that farmers can't find people willing to do the work; the problem is people can't offer to work for less than what the government sets as the minimum wage. I don't think you understand the situation completely. The problem is that people aren't working these laborious jobs at the current minimum wage because the pay is too low. If you took away the minimum wage and offered to pay them less why in the world would they suddenly want to work there?
The unemployed would jump on it, not those who already have jobs. If I want to work for $6/hour, an employer cannot legally hire me for that rate. If that's my best option, boom: I'm out of all income-earning altogether.
If what you say is actually true and people are foregoing minimum wage jobs because they don't like the pay, then our culture is one of more expectation and narcissistic entitlement than I'd feared.
On December 30 2014 06:59 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2014 06:05 cLAN.Anax wrote:On December 29 2014 19:16 Simberto wrote:On December 29 2014 14:26 cLAN.Anax wrote:On December 29 2014 11:38 oneofthem wrote:On December 29 2014 09:46 GreenHorizons wrote:FRESNO, Calif. – Farmers already scrambling to find workers in California — the nation's leading grower of fruits, vegetables and nuts — fear an even greater labor shortage under President Barack Obama's executive action to block some 5 million people from deportation.
Thousands of the state's farmworkers, who make up a significant portion of those who will benefit, may choose to leave the uncertainty of their seasonal jobs for steady, year-around work building homes, cooking in restaurants and cleaning hotel rooms.
Manuel Cunha, president of the Fresno-based Nisei Farmers League, estimates that 85 percent of California's agricultural workers are using false documents to obtain work.
Cunha, who has advised the Obama administration on immigration policy, figures that 50,000 of the state's farmworkers who may benefit from the president's executive action could leave the fields and packing houses in California's $46.4 billion agricultural industry.
"How do I replace that?" he said. "I think we're going to have a problem." Source"But what will I do without my workers criminality to hold over their head and trap them in the job I want them to do?!" Just wow... fuck those slave masters It'd be nice if our citizens obeyed the law and didn't hire illegal aliens. It'd be nice if immigrants didn't emigrate here illegally. It'd be nice if our laws allowed more law-abiding people to emigrate here legally at a faster pace. Farmers and their employees played the immigration lottery. They lost. I don't sympathize for people who knew better. But then those farmers would have to pay people more to do the shitty jobs that apparently noone wants except for those who have no choice whatsoever. I don't get it. If you pay people more, you will find more people willing to do the work. The problem is not that they can't find anyone to do their shitty seasonal agriculture work, it is that they can't find enough people so desperate to do it with such shitty pay anymore now that these people actually have some perspective in their lives. But then complaining about it is just... insane. You can blame our minimum wage for this. If I were unemployed, I'd rather be working a bad job and pulling myself up than playing the lottery for a good one. The problem is indeed not that farmers can't find people willing to do the work; the problem is people can't offer to work for less than what the government sets as the minimum wage. What do you do right now?
Geology at a copper mine out in the middle of nowhere.
EDIT: I added "out in the middle of nowhere" because that's where the jobs are for degrees like mine. You have to go to the resource. I know former classmates that struggled for months to find a job close to their home city and they're not terribly pleased with their work, fellow employees, or the price of living near civilization. I live three hours from the nearest city, but had a paid internship, a job offer before I'd left, competitive pay, decent benefits, great work, acceptable coworkers, and room to rank up. I just have to sacrifice seeing friends and family more than 3 times a year, lol.
On December 30 2014 06:34 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2014 06:26 cLAN.Anax wrote:On December 30 2014 06:13 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On December 30 2014 06:05 cLAN.Anax wrote:On December 29 2014 19:16 Simberto wrote:On December 29 2014 14:26 cLAN.Anax wrote:On December 29 2014 11:38 oneofthem wrote:On December 29 2014 09:46 GreenHorizons wrote:FRESNO, Calif. – Farmers already scrambling to find workers in California — the nation's leading grower of fruits, vegetables and nuts — fear an even greater labor shortage under President Barack Obama's executive action to block some 5 million people from deportation.
Thousands of the state's farmworkers, who make up a significant portion of those who will benefit, may choose to leave the uncertainty of their seasonal jobs for steady, year-around work building homes, cooking in restaurants and cleaning hotel rooms.
Manuel Cunha, president of the Fresno-based Nisei Farmers League, estimates that 85 percent of California's agricultural workers are using false documents to obtain work.
Cunha, who has advised the Obama administration on immigration policy, figures that 50,000 of the state's farmworkers who may benefit from the president's executive action could leave the fields and packing houses in California's $46.4 billion agricultural industry.
"How do I replace that?" he said. "I think we're going to have a problem." Source"But what will I do without my workers criminality to hold over their head and trap them in the job I want them to do?!" Just wow... fuck those slave masters It'd be nice if our citizens obeyed the law and didn't hire illegal aliens. It'd be nice if immigrants didn't emigrate here illegally. It'd be nice if our laws allowed more law-abiding people to emigrate here legally at a faster pace. Farmers and their employees played the immigration lottery. They lost. I don't sympathize for people who knew better. But then those farmers would have to pay people more to do the shitty jobs that apparently noone wants except for those who have no choice whatsoever. I don't get it. If you pay people more, you will find more people willing to do the work. The problem is not that they can't find anyone to do their shitty seasonal agriculture work, it is that they can't find enough people so desperate to do it with such shitty pay anymore now that these people actually have some perspective in their lives. But then complaining about it is just... insane. You can blame our minimum wage for this. If I were unemployed, I'd rather be working a bad job and pulling myself up than playing the lottery for a good one. The problem is indeed not that farmers can't find people willing to do the work; the problem is people can't offer to work for less than what the government sets as the minimum wage. Because back in the days before minimum wage it was good times all around, right? We also didn't have much of an immigration problem, right? Used to be a pretty good thing for the U.S. What? Do you understand why the US population is so large today? Immigration via Asia, but mainly Ireland, Europe etc. The expansion Westward, the Industrial Age were major marked large surges in population due to Immigrants. Even during the Civil War people kept coming here. And no they did not come here "legally" either.
We had tons of immigration, yes. That was one of the strengths of my argument. And the standards then were different than the standards today. Then, immigrants entered into opportunity; now, immigrants enter into (mostly) welfare. If we're going to coddle citizens (immigrants and domestic alike), why shouldn't there be more restrictions and rules and things to hamper their access into this country?
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Outside the mizerly imaginations of conservatives, the idea that there exists a group of people who are being "robbed" of less than minimum wage jobs is patently ludicrous, particularly when one remembers that food service workers on tips already oftentimes make less than minimum wage in the first place lol. Perhaps the copper mine is not the right place to get a finger on the pulse of the American labor force.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
these farming jobs won't get any takers below minimum wage.
also your argument was basically, these people broke certain immigration laws, therefore fuck them.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On December 30 2014 07:54 cLAN.Anax wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2014 07:02 Souma wrote:On December 30 2014 06:05 cLAN.Anax wrote:On December 29 2014 19:16 Simberto wrote:On December 29 2014 14:26 cLAN.Anax wrote:On December 29 2014 11:38 oneofthem wrote:On December 29 2014 09:46 GreenHorizons wrote:FRESNO, Calif. – Farmers already scrambling to find workers in California — the nation's leading grower of fruits, vegetables and nuts — fear an even greater labor shortage under President Barack Obama's executive action to block some 5 million people from deportation.
Thousands of the state's farmworkers, who make up a significant portion of those who will benefit, may choose to leave the uncertainty of their seasonal jobs for steady, year-around work building homes, cooking in restaurants and cleaning hotel rooms.
Manuel Cunha, president of the Fresno-based Nisei Farmers League, estimates that 85 percent of California's agricultural workers are using false documents to obtain work.
Cunha, who has advised the Obama administration on immigration policy, figures that 50,000 of the state's farmworkers who may benefit from the president's executive action could leave the fields and packing houses in California's $46.4 billion agricultural industry.
"How do I replace that?" he said. "I think we're going to have a problem." Source"But what will I do without my workers criminality to hold over their head and trap them in the job I want them to do?!" Just wow... fuck those slave masters It'd be nice if our citizens obeyed the law and didn't hire illegal aliens. It'd be nice if immigrants didn't emigrate here illegally. It'd be nice if our laws allowed more law-abiding people to emigrate here legally at a faster pace. Farmers and their employees played the immigration lottery. They lost. I don't sympathize for people who knew better. But then those farmers would have to pay people more to do the shitty jobs that apparently noone wants except for those who have no choice whatsoever. I don't get it. If you pay people more, you will find more people willing to do the work. The problem is not that they can't find anyone to do their shitty seasonal agriculture work, it is that they can't find enough people so desperate to do it with such shitty pay anymore now that these people actually have some perspective in their lives. But then complaining about it is just... insane. You can blame our minimum wage for this. If I were unemployed, I'd rather be working a bad job and pulling myself up than playing the lottery for a good one. The problem is indeed not that farmers can't find people willing to do the work; the problem is people can't offer to work for less than what the government sets as the minimum wage. I don't think you understand the situation completely. The problem is that people aren't working these laborious jobs at the current minimum wage because the pay is too low. If you took away the minimum wage and offered to pay them less why in the world would they suddenly want to work there? The unemployed would jump on it, not those who already have jobs. If I want to work for $6/hour, an employer cannot legally hire me for that rate. If that's my best option, boom: I'm out of all income-earning altogether. If what you say is actually true and people are foregoing minimum wage jobs because they don't like the pay, then our culture is one of more expectation and narcissistic entitlement than I'd feared.
Did you even read the article...? The problem is that no one is jumping on these farm jobs, unemployed or otherwise, aside from illegal immigrants. Why would anyone invest their efforts into a back-breaking, laborious job when they could instead just as easily get another job that requires 1/10th of the effort and pays the same? It's not about "narcissistic entitlement" (whatever that means) but rather a rational decision made upon weighing an individual's options.
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On December 30 2014 06:25 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2014 06:04 xDaunt wrote:
Haven't we learned by now that relying upon loaded press pieces as definitive accounts of what happened is not a good idea? Haven't we learned to actually assert what is inaccurate/'loaded' instead of using blanket dismissals of stories we don't like by now?
I think his point is that it's more persuasive to use a story from an unbiased source or at least one that reasonably presents the cases of both sides. If you read a piece and find yourself unable to come up with the alternative narrative, it's probably a biased piece.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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On December 30 2014 08:15 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2014 07:54 cLAN.Anax wrote:On December 30 2014 07:02 Souma wrote:On December 30 2014 06:05 cLAN.Anax wrote:On December 29 2014 19:16 Simberto wrote:On December 29 2014 14:26 cLAN.Anax wrote:On December 29 2014 11:38 oneofthem wrote:On December 29 2014 09:46 GreenHorizons wrote:FRESNO, Calif. – Farmers already scrambling to find workers in California — the nation's leading grower of fruits, vegetables and nuts — fear an even greater labor shortage under President Barack Obama's executive action to block some 5 million people from deportation.
Thousands of the state's farmworkers, who make up a significant portion of those who will benefit, may choose to leave the uncertainty of their seasonal jobs for steady, year-around work building homes, cooking in restaurants and cleaning hotel rooms.
Manuel Cunha, president of the Fresno-based Nisei Farmers League, estimates that 85 percent of California's agricultural workers are using false documents to obtain work.
Cunha, who has advised the Obama administration on immigration policy, figures that 50,000 of the state's farmworkers who may benefit from the president's executive action could leave the fields and packing houses in California's $46.4 billion agricultural industry.
"How do I replace that?" he said. "I think we're going to have a problem." Source"But what will I do without my workers criminality to hold over their head and trap them in the job I want them to do?!" Just wow... fuck those slave masters It'd be nice if our citizens obeyed the law and didn't hire illegal aliens. It'd be nice if immigrants didn't emigrate here illegally. It'd be nice if our laws allowed more law-abiding people to emigrate here legally at a faster pace. Farmers and their employees played the immigration lottery. They lost. I don't sympathize for people who knew better. But then those farmers would have to pay people more to do the shitty jobs that apparently noone wants except for those who have no choice whatsoever. I don't get it. If you pay people more, you will find more people willing to do the work. The problem is not that they can't find anyone to do their shitty seasonal agriculture work, it is that they can't find enough people so desperate to do it with such shitty pay anymore now that these people actually have some perspective in their lives. But then complaining about it is just... insane. You can blame our minimum wage for this. If I were unemployed, I'd rather be working a bad job and pulling myself up than playing the lottery for a good one. The problem is indeed not that farmers can't find people willing to do the work; the problem is people can't offer to work for less than what the government sets as the minimum wage. I don't think you understand the situation completely. The problem is that people aren't working these laborious jobs at the current minimum wage because the pay is too low. If you took away the minimum wage and offered to pay them less why in the world would they suddenly want to work there? The unemployed would jump on it, not those who already have jobs. If I want to work for $6/hour, an employer cannot legally hire me for that rate. If that's my best option, boom: I'm out of all income-earning altogether. If what you say is actually true and people are foregoing minimum wage jobs because they don't like the pay, then our culture is one of more expectation and narcissistic entitlement than I'd feared. Did you even read the article...? The problem is that no one is jumping on these farm jobs, unemployed or otherwise, aside from illegal immigrants. Why would anyone invest their efforts into a back-breaking, laborious job when they could instead just as easily get another job that requires 1/10th of the effort and pays the same? It's not about "narcissistic entitlement" (whatever that means) but rather a rational decision made upon weighing an individual's options.
You can just watch the logic breaking together as he tries to make the situation fit into his mindset. They can't find people to work the job at the pay they are offering. But it can't be that the good corporate guy is not offering enough money for a shitty job, because capitalism is always right. Thus it must be the evil governments fault. And probably some evil socialist policy like minimum wage.
Noone wants to work that job at minimum wage. Thus, without minimum wage, noone would want to work that job for even less. The only people who would work that job are illegal immigrants, because they don't have a choice at all, and can be exploited at will by the employer. After all, they can't exactly complain if they get paid less than minimal wage or get fucked over in any way since as illegals, they will just get deported. And suddenly, as soon as they can actually get a better job, they don't want to take it either.
This leaves one conclusion only: The holy market forces dictate that those jobs need to be paid MORE than minimum wage to attract people, because at minimum wage they already have other options, and there are really few options that are worse than a backbreaking physical job that is ALSO seasonal. But of course market forces are only good if they can be used to fuck over workers, if it is bad for the employer something needs to be done!
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http://fortressamerica.gawker.com/gops-no-3-house-member-sure-i-went-to-that-white-sup-1676155377/ laceydonohue
Rep. Steve Scalise (R-La.), a rising star in the national Republican Party, confirmed reports Monday on the neo-Nazi website Stormfront that he had presented at a 2002 white supremacist conference organized by KKK bigwig and ex-Republican legislator David Duke.
A spokeswoman for Scalise told the Washington Post this afternoon that the congressman had in fact attended the jamboree, where EURO president David Duke himself was an honored speaker, but that Scalise had no idea it was a white supremacist group to whom he was giving his anti-government spiel
Well, I guess between choosing to be stupid or racist he went with stupid. So progress.
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On December 30 2014 09:29 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2014 08:15 Souma wrote:On December 30 2014 07:54 cLAN.Anax wrote:On December 30 2014 07:02 Souma wrote:On December 30 2014 06:05 cLAN.Anax wrote:On December 29 2014 19:16 Simberto wrote:On December 29 2014 14:26 cLAN.Anax wrote:On December 29 2014 11:38 oneofthem wrote:On December 29 2014 09:46 GreenHorizons wrote:FRESNO, Calif. – Farmers already scrambling to find workers in California — the nation's leading grower of fruits, vegetables and nuts — fear an even greater labor shortage under President Barack Obama's executive action to block some 5 million people from deportation.
Thousands of the state's farmworkers, who make up a significant portion of those who will benefit, may choose to leave the uncertainty of their seasonal jobs for steady, year-around work building homes, cooking in restaurants and cleaning hotel rooms.
Manuel Cunha, president of the Fresno-based Nisei Farmers League, estimates that 85 percent of California's agricultural workers are using false documents to obtain work.
Cunha, who has advised the Obama administration on immigration policy, figures that 50,000 of the state's farmworkers who may benefit from the president's executive action could leave the fields and packing houses in California's $46.4 billion agricultural industry.
"How do I replace that?" he said. "I think we're going to have a problem." Source"But what will I do without my workers criminality to hold over their head and trap them in the job I want them to do?!" Just wow... fuck those slave masters It'd be nice if our citizens obeyed the law and didn't hire illegal aliens. It'd be nice if immigrants didn't emigrate here illegally. It'd be nice if our laws allowed more law-abiding people to emigrate here legally at a faster pace. Farmers and their employees played the immigration lottery. They lost. I don't sympathize for people who knew better. But then those farmers would have to pay people more to do the shitty jobs that apparently noone wants except for those who have no choice whatsoever. I don't get it. If you pay people more, you will find more people willing to do the work. The problem is not that they can't find anyone to do their shitty seasonal agriculture work, it is that they can't find enough people so desperate to do it with such shitty pay anymore now that these people actually have some perspective in their lives. But then complaining about it is just... insane. You can blame our minimum wage for this. If I were unemployed, I'd rather be working a bad job and pulling myself up than playing the lottery for a good one. The problem is indeed not that farmers can't find people willing to do the work; the problem is people can't offer to work for less than what the government sets as the minimum wage. I don't think you understand the situation completely. The problem is that people aren't working these laborious jobs at the current minimum wage because the pay is too low. If you took away the minimum wage and offered to pay them less why in the world would they suddenly want to work there? The unemployed would jump on it, not those who already have jobs. If I want to work for $6/hour, an employer cannot legally hire me for that rate. If that's my best option, boom: I'm out of all income-earning altogether. If what you say is actually true and people are foregoing minimum wage jobs because they don't like the pay, then our culture is one of more expectation and narcissistic entitlement than I'd feared. Did you even read the article...? The problem is that no one is jumping on these farm jobs, unemployed or otherwise, aside from illegal immigrants. Why would anyone invest their efforts into a back-breaking, laborious job when they could instead just as easily get another job that requires 1/10th of the effort and pays the same? It's not about "narcissistic entitlement" (whatever that means) but rather a rational decision made upon weighing an individual's options. You can just watch the logic breaking together as he tries to make the situation fit into his mindset. They can't find people to work the job at the pay they are offering. But it can't be that the good corporate guy is not offering enough money for a shitty job, because capitalism is always right. Thus it must be the evil governments fault. And probably some evil socialist policy like minimum wage. Noone wants to work that job at minimum wage. Thus, without minimum wage, noone would want to work that job for even less. The only people who would work that job are illegal immigrants, because they don't have a choice at all, and can be exploited at will by the employer. After all, they can't exactly complain if they get paid less than minimal wage or get fucked over in any way since as illegals, they will just get deported. And suddenly, as soon as they can actually get a better job, they don't want to take it either. This leaves one conclusion only: The holy market forces dictate that those jobs need to be paid MORE than minimum wage to attract people, because at minimum wage they already have other options, and there are really few options that are worse than a backbreaking physical job that is ALSO seasonal. But of course market forces are only good if they can be used to fuck over workers, if it is bad for the employer something needs to be done!
I think we are somewhat in agreement here. I would agree that one reason citizens won't work these jobs is because they wouldn't be paid enough. So, what the farmers do instead is hire illegals, for all the reasons you mentioned. A large amount of the fault certainly should be laid at the feet of the employer. It's one reason E-Verify was under serious consideration at one time.
But I think he would agree with that to an extent at least, he did start out by saying
Farmers and their employees played the immigration lottery. They lost. I don't sympathize for people who knew better.
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